[Archived] Blackburn is or Blackburn are?

[Sverre]

As a Norwegian having (British)English as a secondary language it is not always easy know which grammatical rules that apply to certain situations.

One specific grammatical problem that I often stumble upon is whether or not a TEAM, say Blackburn Rovers, should have a plural form. The reason why I find this difficult is because I see the singular form, is, used as much as the plural form, are.

Is this because the Americans use the singular and the British the plural? Or is it the other way around?

Or should is be said in certain situations and are in others? In other words, both can be used?

Examples:

Blackburn are a good football team

Blackburn is a good football team

Blackburn have signed Messi on a three year deal.

Blackburn has signed Messi on a three year deal.

Cheers

[FourLaneBlue]

Generally, we refer to Blackburn Rovers, the club, as a noun of the plural form. As in "Blackburn are playing well recently", "Rovers have some good crossers of the ball".

However, Blackburn the place tends to be referred to as a singular noun. For example, "Blackburn is a former mill town in East Lancashire", "If you are looking for a night out, Blackburn is always worth a shout" etc etc

This can become confusing. For example, when discussing a visit to the football team, "Blackburn is always a tough place to go".

We tend to view things relating to the club as plural form, as Blackburn Rovers are comprised of many players-stuff, whereas those involving the specific place is usually singular, as there is only Blackburn the place.

These are not always the case, but a good rule of thumb.

Look up the phrase rule of thumb yourself

[Paul]

I'm old enough to have been taught grammar at school and your question has made me think hard. It demonstrates clearly why English is a difficult langauge to learn. My view would be there is no grammatical rule applied to collective nouns and I'm sure a collective noun can be considered either as singular or plural. Which are considered singular and which plural is a matter of convention in British English rather than a hard and fast rule. I think American English more often takes the singular verb whereas British English takes the plural. If talking about the club I would suggest:

1. Blackburn Rovers is a well run club. Here "Blackburn Rovers" is only the name and the subject is the club (singular) so the verb should be "is," singular.

2. Blackburn Rovers are playing well. This example refers to the team, which is a collective noun, and the verb should be plural "are"

3. Using FLB's example - "Blackburn is always a tough place to go" - although the sentence is discussing the football team the reference is actually to Blackburn, as a place, and therefore should be singular "is"

Try as I might I can't think of a hard and fast rule. Look at the examples below:

The team are playing well today

A team which is disciplined has more chance of winning

The determiner "the" or "a" defines if one should use "is" or "are."

I may come back to this later!

I happened to read your question before moving to the transfer thread. Reading your posts in that thread I would not have known English is your second language. One tip I'd give, and this is a mistake many people make, including those with English as a first language, is unecessary use of "that." More of often than not it is used when it could be omitted.

I think that Blackburn Rovers will be champions

I think Blackburn Rovers will be champions

No doubt someone with better knowledge will be along soon!

[American Rover12]

Just refer to the team as Rovers and you'll always be set!

[Mattyblue]

Just refer to the team as Rovers and you'll always be set!

Exactly! Whenever I hear a Rovers fan refer to us as 'Blackburn' it makes me cringe.

[RoversSG]

Just refer to the team as Rovers and you'll always be set!

That actually brings us to another problem. Will it now be "Rovers has" or "Rovers have"?

Generally, i feel we should use has for organisations but "Rovers has" just don't sound right.

[broadsword]

Depends on your perception as to whether you see Rovers as a single object (ie the whole club) or as a collection of individuals (plural).

Normally it takes the plural form. Note that we are "Rovers" and not "Rover". That is, a collection of people who rove (wander).

[SouthAussieRover]

Blacburn Rovers is/are a well run club.

Blackburn Rovers was/were a well run club.

etc

Choose your words carefully....

But always remember..."allegedly", "I/we believe", "in my/our opinion", "I/we suspect" must always accompany a belief/thought/suspicion/opinion etc etc...

[CaliRoverNYC]

I'd say Paul has put forth the best explanation of it, as some people refer to the club (singular) and some refer to the collection of players and supporters (plural)... I think that is how most English Clubs are spoken about.

However IN AMERICA it is always plural. Its always "The Pittsburgh Steelers are Super Bowl champions again", and you would be outed as a foreigner/newbee for saying something like "New York Yankees has made a move to sign Cliff Lee" Its also interesting to note that in America we will always use "the" before the team's name something very rarely used in england.

[FourLaneBlue]

Cali - that is the same, generally, as in British English. New York or Boston the places, for example, are singular nouns. Usually, a sports side in both UK and US English is seen as a collective noun.

There are some examples where they can be referred to in the singular, for example,

"The New York Yankees is the name of the baseball team in..." etc etc

However, generally in both UK and US English we refer to clubs as being a plural non-countable noun. It is true in UK English that you can refer to Rovers, for example, as being singular but I would suggest this is not when referring to the team.

"Blackburn Rovers is a good team", just does not work, for example.

[CaliRoverNYC]

FourLane- yes I totally agree, the main difference being that here it is very rare to refer to the club as a singular noun, however this could be because there are no teams which have singular nouns here in the states.

Clubs like Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal are often referred to in the singular when referring to the club as an organization, meanwhile it is more common in the US to refer to the Yankees' front office when referring to the club in that manner.

[True Blue & White]

If you are talking about the place, use "is"

Blackburn is a dump, for example

If you are talking about a group of people, like our team then you use "are"

Blackburn are trying to sign Charlie Adam..

[jim mk2]

From the Times style guide

Teams normally plural, eg, “West Ham United are in outstanding form”. But sports clubs usually take the singular, especially in news stories, eg, “Manchester City Football Club was fined heavily for crowd disturbances”.

[rowz]

As a Norwegian having (British)English as a secondary language it is not always easy know which grammatical rules that apply to certain situations.

One specific grammatical problem that I often stumble upon is whether or not a TEAM, say Blackburn Rovers, should have a plural form. The reason why I find this difficult is because I see the singular form, is, used as much as the plural form, are.

Is this because the Americans use the singular and the British the plural? Or is it the other way around?

Or should is be said in certain situations and are in others? In other words, both can be used?

Examples:

Blackburn are a good football team

Blackburn is a good football team

Blackburn have signed Messi on a three year deal.

Blackburn has signed Messi on a three year deal.

Cheers

[Claytons Left Boot]

The continentals seem to use singular (it was the same in Switzerland), whereas we use plural.

The word for 'is' and 'are' in Norwegian is the same (ie. 'er')

It is = Det er......We are = Vi er.

That's possibly part of the problem.

[American]

I'd say Paul has put forth the best explanation of it, as some people refer to the club (singular) and some refer to the collection of players and supporters (plural)... I think that is how most English Clubs are spoken about.

However IN AMERICA it is always plural. Its always "The Pittsburgh Steelers are Super Bowl champions again", and you would be outed as a foreigner/newbee for saying something like "New York Yankees has made a move to sign Cliff Lee" Its also interesting to note that in America we will always use "the" before the team's name something very rarely used in england.

Most of our team names are also plural. I remember a trivia question years ago to name how ever many college/university team nicknames you could that didn't end in s. One example of the singular being Notre Dame Fighting Irish.

[Paul]

Sadly I've thought about this off and on all day. I think I have the answer.

The club is a single entity, a company or business in fact. Therefore if we say "Blackburn Rovers is a well run club" the singular is correct because "the club" is singular. Which is why we sing "There's only one Blackburn Rovers." A correct statement.

Discussing the team (collective noun) specifically "Blackburn Rovers are passing well" is a direct reference to the team and must be in the plural.

Grammatically the club and team are two different references although in other respects they are one and the same.

So how about "A flock of sheep is / are walking down the road." This I'm not sure about.

[Paul]

This does it for me:

http://www.infoplease.com/cig/grammar-style/collective-nouns.html

[Rovermatt]

Most of our team names are also plural. I remember a trivia question years ago to name how ever many college/university team nicknames you could that didn't end in s. One example of the singular being Notre Dame Fighting Irish.

Stanford Cardinal? Syracuse Orange?

I would agree with those points made previously in the thread. When referring to Blackburn's team then the plural is used in British English ('Blackburn are playing well'/'Blackburn are a difficult team to play against').

If one is referring to the town itself (even in a footballing context) then the singular is used ('Blackburn is a difficult place to visit'/'Blackburn is a town in England'). In many ways the statement that 'Blackburn is a difficult place to visit' refers to the singular object of Ewood Park, rather than the team or the town.

The use of 'Rovers' is not the governing principle rather the context of the statement is what you should take your pointers from. However, an example of why English is a difficult language to learn is found in the statement 'Blackburn Rovers have been sold to foreigners recently'. The statement refers to the singular entity of the club itself rather than the collective team, yet the fact that the plural 'Rovers' is used means that 'have' is applicable. To say 'Blackburn Rovers has been sold to foreigners recently' is perfectly proper but sounds awkward.

American English in such situations is almost completely contrary but entirely correct: 'The Auburn Tigers have been crowned national champions'/'Auburn has been crowned national champion'. The use of the pluralised team name governs the appropriate use of 'have' and 'has'.

[jim mk2]

I'll repeat this post because it says it all and does not need further explanation.

From the Times style guide

Teams normally plural, eg, “West Ham United are in outstanding form”. But sports clubs usually take the singular, especially in news stories, eg, “Manchester City Football Club was fined heavily for crowd disturbances”.

[colin]

So how about "A flock of sheep is / are walking down the road." This I'm not sure about.

That must be "is" as "a flock of sheep" is just one flock therefore singular. "There are two flocks of sheep..." would be correct as there are two flocks & therefore plural.

"Blackburn Rovers" should, strictly, be in the singular as in "Blackburn Rovers plays its games at Ewood Park."

Because, as we all know, there is only one Blackburn Rovers. The fact that it ends with the letter "s" is not relevant. My surname ends with the "s" and there's only one of me. Same with Phil Jones.

But the English language slips and slides all the time so "Liverpool football club have appointed Kenny Dalgleish as their new manager" should really be "Liverpool football club has appointed Kenny Dalgleish as its new manager." The former, although grammatically incorrect, is taking over.

Just like the use of the word "stadiums" when the correct word should really be "stadia." It goes back to the Latin root with words like media & medium.

To the original poster: The English language is evolving at a fast rate, probably due to the internet. Most people in England grapple with its confusion so I wouldn't worry too much.

[Sverre]

Sorry for the late reply.

Thanks a lot for your help, all of you, it is much more clear now.