[Archived] Wigan Vs Blackburn Rovers

[LeftWinger]

More Stats

SOme are quick to jump on something when they want to believe it, these stats agree with the other one certainley not the beeb

You can never listen to the BBC stats. I remember when we lost at Villa and it said we'd had one shot on target, despite having scored one and having a penalty saved. This is a line from yesterdays match report on the BBC:

David Dunn, another second half substitute, made it 4-3 with the second penalty of the afternoon, sending Al-Habsi the wrong way after an ill-advised challenge by Boyce has sent Dunn tumbling just inside the box.

The match report is clearly written by someone who hasn't seen the actual game and the stats made up. I once read a match report on teamtalk that was so inaccurate it was painful. I emailed to ask them about it, and they admitted that they didn't have reporters at every game, and just used information from other people.

[Kelbo]

You can see what Kean is trying to do - and we aren't too far off. In this match - but for school boy defending, and poor finishing we would have got at least a point if not more.Its not all doom and gloom - but we do need to start picking up points again (though is it not only 2 consecutive league defeats ?)

Defending from where?

Just one point to illustrate and this was happening throughout the game in different areas, Emerton had the ball on the left wing position and possession was lost, Emertons run from there was diagonally towards our right back position where the ball was played by Wigan, why? he has no chance of getting into position, so the shape and discipline of the team is lost, surely, the way to haveretained our shape is for everyone to move accross one, ie. left mid to left centre, left centre mid to right centre and right centre mid to right midfield, a short move, nothing more was required, instead our shape was lost and our defence have to cope with an extra man!!

So why are we so undisciplined, its happening all the time where players are being caught out of position, draw your own conclusions, something is clearly wrong, it would be difficult for any defender, faced with two players coming at him to get it 100% right, you have to position yourself between the two and they will 'do you' then another CD is dragged out of position, thats where we were totally wrong and undisciplined.

o

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Defending from where?

Just one point to illustrate and this was happening throughout the game in different areas, Emerton had the ball on the left wing position and possession was lost, Emertons run from there was diagonally towards our right back position where the ball was played by Wigan, why? he has no chance of getting into position, so the shape and discipline of the team is lost, surely, the way to haveretained our shape is for everyone to move accross one, ie. left mid to left centre, left centre mid to right centre and right centre mid to right midfield, a short move, nothing more was required, instead our shape was lost and our defence have to cope with an extra man!!

So why are we so undisciplined, its happening all the time where players are being caught out of position, draw your own conclusions, something is clearly wrong, it would be difficult for any defender, faced with two players coming at him to get it 100% right, you have to position yourself between the two and they will 'do you' then another CD is dragged out of position, thats where we were totally wrong and undisciplined.

o

I did actually say earlier in the post that I thought defensive tactics were wrong - particularly how exposed we are leaving Salgado. But two, maybe three of the goals could have been prevented with better defending.

Kean is possibly trying to do too much too soon - normally he would have a pre-season to work on getting the balance right - but he is currently trying out his tactics during matches.

One thing though strikes me - considering Sam's mythical powers in setting up a defensive team - I don't think we look any worse at conceding than we did under him. The problem is still there - defensive midfield - but now we aren't committing most of the midfield to inept attempts at defending - but them flying forward to attack.

IMO we have three key people that need to step up - and the problems will look better. Jones has to calm down and just start playing his natural game - I still think he will be a good aquisition, but is obviously still finding his feet. Givet come back from injury will make a huge difference to he defence - and free up Olsson for left wing. Finally Santa will mean we hold the ball up better - distribute it better - and hopefully finish off some of these numerous chances we keep making.

[47er]

Fair points raised in my opinion. Kean said in his interview after the match the same problem areas we have all noticed for awhile, soft in the centre and the team not defending as a team. Now he has to work on the team to get get those areas put right.

Olsson should not be at LB, but with Givet out injured there was no choice to put him there. So another area that needs addressing.

Kean does seem to be getting the best out of Hoilet, who is growing in confidence.

But Kean does appear to be a fast learner.

He hope he may have noticed the same problems we have all noticed for a while, after all he has been the first team coach for a couple of years.

We all know that there is no adequate cover for Givet who isn't really a left-back anyway which is why I was urging Kean to sign Warnock (on loan or otherwise) in the January transfer window. We didn't, nor did we sign anyone else for that position.

We have got 6 strikers though.

You can console yourself with the belief that Kean is a fast learner but I can't see any evidence for it. I think you are optimistic beyond realism.The strength of our team for sometime has been a resolute defence. Its now a shambles.

And before anyone says it, yes we let 7 in against Manure, not the whole blame to the defence though. At least it was an off-day, yesterday is becoming the norm.

New Blackpool 2 Newcastle 3? Hope not but we wouldn't be surprised would we?

[AlanK]

The comparison after every match between previous management and current management is pointless as we do not have a current manager.

Its obvious we have a Venky`s puppet in charge.

[Majiball]

Both the full backs were left very open at times. Their first came from beating our left back and then having acres to attack and a man advantage.

Really it's the midfield's role to help them out in those situations.

[47er]

I did actually say earlier in the post that I thought defensive tactics were wrong - particularly how exposed we are leaving Salgado. But two, maybe three of the goals could have been prevented with better defending.

Kean is possibly trying to do too much too soon - normally he would have a pre-season to work on getting the balance right - but he is currently trying out his tactics during matches.

One thing though strikes me - considering Sam's mythical powers in setting up a defensive team - I don't think we look any worse at conceding than we did under him. The problem is still there - defensive midfield - but now we aren't committing most of the midfield to inept attempts at defending - but them flying forward to attack.

IMO we have three key people that need to step up - and the problems will look better. Jones has to calm down and just start playing his natural game - I still think he will be a good aquisition, but is obviously still finding his feet. Givet come back from injury will make a huge difference to he defence - and free up Olsson for left wing. Finally Santa will mean we hold the ball up better - distribute it better - and hopefully finish off some of these numerous chances we keep making.

Sam's powers were not mythical, they saved us from relegation and took us to tenth.

I keep saying we should judge Kean on his own merits but people keep bringing up the previous manager as a means of deflecting criticism from our current one.

We are currently seeing point after point thrown away by poor selections, poor subs and an absolute failure to organise the squad around its true strengths. We are not in danger yet but we are not far enough away.

Cue "doom-monger" from Gav. Don't care, someone has to start ringing the alarm bells.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

The strength of our team for sometime has been a resolute defence. Its now a shambles.

Sorry - I don't think we should get carried away with the myth that Rovers were some form of defensive master-class - we were equally a shambles previously - just that we committed more men defensively to be a shambles than we do now.

Sam -

19 games

4 clean sheets

31 goals conceded

Kean

11 games

2 clean sheets

18 goals conceded

Lets get real - our main problem has been for a while defensive midfield. Sam tried to flood the midfield to make up for it - Kean doesn't. At the moment the effect is pretty much the same in defence - but the football is far better and we actually look like scoring goals.

[imy9]

The comparison after every match between previous management and current management is pointless as we do not have a current manager.

Its obvious we have a Venky`s puppet in charge.

Venkys puppet I like that, very original. IMO Kean has handled himself impeccably, getting players to sign up to contracts and is starting to get the team playing a certain way, two years of hoofball means it will take longer than a dozen games for the players to adapt to Kean and his system, thankfully the owners are not going to fire Kean so he will be given enough time to get it right.

[gumboots]

The comparison after every match between previous management and current management is pointless as we do not have a current manager.

Its obvious we have a Venky`s puppet in charge.

To those suggesting we should have played the ball wider more often yesterday - did you see the amount of water on the wings. Less obvious than the centre because there was grass there but the spray coming up every time the ball went there was evidence of it

Martinez said in his post match interview that McCarthy was one of their big misses before, since he'd been in great form and had then been out through injury. His return gave them a huge lift and made a big difference.

Who was the idiot who threw the coin that sailed past my ear and just missed the kids in front of me? Why do we still have morons going on our away trips?

[Majiball]

Lets get real - our main problem has been for a while defensive midfield. Sam tried to flood the midfield to make up for it - Kean doesn't. At the moment the effect is pretty much the same - but the football is far better and we actually look like scoring goals.

Personally I think we should revert back to that formation and play the expansive football within that. Having the extra man in the middle will allow for better defensive cover as you say and we can still play pass N move as long as we get plenty of pace out there.

One thing for me yesterday was when we scored our second, Kean should have held off the subs. We just seemed flat 4 a while and we'd been getting on top prior to that.

[Kelbo]

Both the full backs were left very open at times. Their first came from beating our left back and then having acres to attack and a man advantage.

Really it's the midfield's role to help them out in those situations.

Actually, was just thinking about you Maji, Majiball came over to one of my teams games and stood with us in the dugout, within t20 seconds of our opponents making a change, Maji picked up they had gone to 4-3-3 - Kevin Hird told me he would come off the park at half time and hadnt a clue really what had gone on in the game, Tony Parkes would come off and know exactly what had occured and offered opinions on how to change things.

There is a whole difference between coaching and managing a team, a coach works on the technique of players and how to defend, attack pass etc a manager sets the style of play and tactics, this is why Harford and Kidd, excellent coaches, struggled when in the hot seat.

incidentally, without name dropping again, but Hirdy is a mate, he told me when he played a game for ex Rovers against the first team to celebrate our Premiership championship win, said Dalglish who played that game, had a massive awareness of what was going on around him, he knew where everyone was and where he should be, he had been retired for three years then yet he had this awareness.

[47er]

Sorry - I don't think we should get carried away with the myth that Rovers were some form of defensive master-class - we were equally a shambles previously - just that we committed more men defensively to be a shambles than we do now.

Sam -

19 games

4 clean sheets

31 goals conceded

Kean

11 games

2 clean sheets

18 goals conceded

Lets get real - our main problem has been for a while defensive midfield. Sam tried to flood the midfield to make up for it - Kean doesn't. At the moment the effect is pretty much the same in defence - but the football is far better and we actually look like scoring goals.

The Utd games skews the goals against column as you well know.You are the one who brings up the ghost of Sam every post you write. Judge Kean on his own merits. How many points from how many games (and falling)?

Do you think we have enough cover at left-back by the way? Why wasn't this addressed?

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

Urgh..

When we were under Allardyce, even if we WON people complained about his style. They cried out for a more attractive game and that they'd rather see us give it a go instead of seeing the ball played route one all the time. Now we're playing a prettier game and (surprise surprise) losing due to not having Sam's regimented defensive mindset and now people are screaming that we should have kept Sam all along.

We have Kean. Venky's have stuck by him and given him funds. He's bought players who are going to become available for next week in Formica and Roque. He's learning on the job. Is that ideal? No not really but I doubt people were complaining after Liverpool and West Brom.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Well after finally drying out both inside and out let us get down to it

Simply not good enough - for the first 25 mins or so we had this game in the bag then as usual press the self destruct button.

Was saying before the match (and after) no matter what team, manager,century,division - if a team needs a win there is no better team to play than the Rovers - its never changed in the years I have been watching Rovers - and so continued in favour of Wigan and as per script especially when there is a big following.

I cannot believe that people are complaining about the pitch - these guys are professional pampered sods and should be able to dig in and adapt to conditions - something we failed desperately with including our new 'messiah', in fact I though it added to the game.

I posted on here a couple of weeks back about Rovers have a level/bar they just can't seem to get past like some other teams, even just as a one off as so proved today.

We where out fought and outplayed and I feel Kean got his starting line up & substitutes wrong (IMO Emerton looked one of our more fresher and effective players considering) but the timing of them was probably correct.

We deserved the defeat today, and I'm a wits end to understand the comments of Kean with regard to the chances on goal in the 2nd half - did we actually make their keeper work?

As Revidge posted earlier

RevidgeBlue

STOP GIVING SOFT BLOODY GOALS AWAY! AND JUST STICK THE BALL IN THE BACK OF THE BLOODY NET!

I too still have my doubts with Kean but at least the football at times is certainly more pleasing on the eye.

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

The Utd games skews the goals against column as you well know.You are the one who brings up the ghost of Sam every post you write. Judge Kean on his own merits. How many points from how many games (and falling)?

Do you think we have enough cover at left-back by the way? Why wasn't this addressed?

Because centre mid and a striker were greater priorities. Whether the players we brought in are up to scratch is a separate question but you cannot say that those areas were less of a concern then LB.

[Kelbo]

Personally I think we should revert back to that formation and play the expansive football within that. Having the extra man in the middle will allow for better defensive cover as you say and we can still play pass N move as long as we get plenty of pace out there.

One thing for me yesterday was when we scored our second, Kean should have held off the subs. We just seemed flat 4 a while and we'd been getting on top prior to that.

Actually, I hope that when Formica plays, we will do that, one up top with Formica playing a slightly more advanced role, we are than able to protect our defence much more and be more compact, at the moment we have so many gaps in our play, we are vulnerable against any team.

[gumboots]

Well after finally drying out both inside and out let us get down to it

Simply not good enough - for the first 25 mins or so we had this game in the bag then as usual press the self destruct button.

Was saying before the match (and after) no matter what team, manager,century,division - if a team needs a win there is no better team to play than the Rovers - its never changed in the years I have been watching Rovers - and so continued in favour of Wigan and as per script especially when there is a big following.

I cannot believe that people are complaining about the pitch - these guys are professional pampered sods and should be able to dig in and adapt to conditions - something we failed desperately with including our new 'messiah', in fact I though it added to the game.

I posted on here a couple of weeks back about Rovers have a level/bar they just can't seem to get past like some other teams, even just as a one off as so proved today.

We where out fought and outplayed and I feel Kean got his starting line up & substitutes wrong (IMO Emerton looked one of our more fresher and effective players considering) but the timing of them was probably correct.

We deserved the defeat today, and I'm a wits end to understand the comments of Kean with regard to the chances on goal in the 2nd half - did we actually make there keeper work?

As Revidge posted earlier

I too still have my doubts with Kean but at least the football at times is certainly more pleasing on the eye.

Can I add to Rev's quote a middle sentence STAY ONSIDE

[Kelbo]

Can I add to Rev's quote a middle sentence STAY ONSIDE

You are correct in many respects, yet I feel sometimes that if the ball was played earlier, the player would not have been offside, a good playmaker will thread the balls through at the right time, for a player to have to wait is a real problem, watch Berbatov, he playes these very clever early balls and defences cant cope, they have little time to react, back to the basics I mentioned a week or two ago, DO IT EARLY!!

[Majiball]

Actually, was just thinking about you Maji, Majiball came over to one of my teams games and stood with us in the dugout, within t20 seconds of our opponents making a change, Maji picked up they had gone to 4-3-3 - Kevin Hird told me he would come off the park at half time and hadnt a clue really what had gone on in the game, Tony Parkes would come off and know exactly what had occured and offered opinions on how to change things.

There is a whole difference between coaching and managing a team, a coach works on the technique of players and how to defend, attack pass etc a manager sets the style of play and tactics, this is why Harford and Kidd, excellent coaches struggled when in the hot seat.

incidentally, without name dropping again, but Hirdy is a mate, he told me when he played a game for ex Rovers against the first team to celebrate our Premiership championship win, said Dalglish who played that game, had a massive awareness of what was going on around him, he knew where everyone was and where he should be, he had been retired for three years then yet he had this awareness.

But you've left out the best part of that story, lol. We'll have to that again soon, watch one of your games that is.

Your right chap it's a completely different skill set requirement being a manager. I guess we have to hope that Kean can make the transition and walk the walk.

We just don't have the personel to play the diamond in the manner Kean wants and we get so exposed.

People on here have commented that it will take time for the lads to get used to the new style and you'll get no argument from me on that. But rather than make sweeping changes, make small ones. Play the style he wants within the framework we had and then work on that. Too much change in a short space of time just leads to information overload and mistakes as everyone tries to adapt, small steps make it easier.

[Parsonblue]

Both the full backs were left very open at times. Their first came from beating our left back and then having acres to attack and a man advantage.

Really it's the midfield's role to help them out in those situations.

I couldn't agree more. Since the introduction of the diamond formation, we are far too exposed at the back. The diamond would be OK if we utilised just one striker with the guy at the tip of the diamond playing just behind him. This would allow us the luxury of another central midfielder to block the holes that are developing. However, two strikers and the tip of the diamond playing just behind seems to unbalance the whole team.

I notice some are suggesting that Kean is a quick learner. The same problems were evident in away games at WBA, Sunderland, Chelsea, Villa and the home game with Spurs. Indeed, after his substitutions against Liverpool he left the defence completely exposed and but for Gerrard's shocking penalty miss we might have dropped points in that game.

Forget comparisons with the previous manager and instead look at the three most successful managers we've had in the last 30 years. Kendall, Dalglish and Souness, were all capable of grinding out results when the need arose. It wasn't always pretty under each of them at times, but they knew how to set up a team to get a result when the need arose. Sometimes there is the need to win (or draw) ugly and at the moment I'm not quite sure that the manager has grasped that fact.

[Majiball]

Actually, I hope that when Formica plays, we will do that, one up top with Formica playing a slightly more advanced role, we are than able to protect our defence much more and be more compact, at the moment we have so many gaps in our play, we are vulnerable against any team.

Its meant to be his best role and it's defo Dunns so I really think we should be playing our most creative player in his best role, when we can. The trouble is we in effect play with 3 defensive players at present in the 2 CB's and the anchor and we can be left very exposed. Wigan on a better day could have scored an easy couple more especially if Moses every learns to check what's around him.

I'd be tempted to play play with a lot of pace away from home and counter asap. Hoillet can get up to RSC and act as the second striker when needs be.

Jones N'zonzi

Diouf Hoillet Olsson

RSC

Once Givets fit. But again I just don't understand why we don't consider signing a left back vital as Olsson is a fantastic threat when he plays on the wing.

[47er]

I couldn't agree more. Since the introduction of the diamond formation, we are far too exposed at the back. The diamond would be OK if we utilised just one striker with the guy at the tip of the diamond playing just behind him. This would allow us the luxury of another central midfielder to block the holes that are developing. However, two strikers and the tip of the diamond playing just behind seems to unbalance the whole team.

I notice some are suggesting that Kean is a quick learner. The same problems were evident in away games at WBA, Sunderland, Chelsea, Villa and the home game with Spurs. Indeed, after his substitutions against Liverpool he left the defence completely exposed and but for Gerrard's shocking penalty miss we might have dropped points in that game.

Forget comparisons with the previous manager and instead look at the three most successful managers we've had in the last 30 years. Kendall, Dalglish and Souness, were all capable of grinding out results when the need arose. It wasn't always pretty under each of them at times, but they knew how to set up a team to get a result when the need arose. Sometimes there is the need to win (or draw) ugly and at the moment I'm not quite sure that the manager has grasped that fact.

Great post.

[Majiball]

I couldn't agree more. Since the introduction of the diamond formation, we are far too exposed at the back. The diamond would be OK if we utilised just one striker with the guy at the tip of the diamond playing just behind him. This would allow us the luxury of another central midfielder to block the holes that are developing. However, two strikers and the tip of the diamond playing just behind seems to unbalance the whole team.

I notice some are suggesting that Kean is a quick learner. The same problems were evident in away games at WBA, Sunderland, Chelsea, Villa and the home game with Spurs. Indeed, after his substitutions against Liverpool he left the defence completely exposed and but for Gerrard's shocking penalty miss we might have dropped points in that game.

Forget comparisons with the previous manager and instead look at the three most successful managers we've had in the last 30 years. Kendall, Dalglish and Souness, were all capable of grinding out results when the need arose. It wasn't always pretty under each of them at times, but they knew how to set up a team to get a result when the need arose. Sometimes there is the need to win (or draw) ugly and at the moment I'm not quite sure that the manager has grasped that fact.

I would concur and would also play just the one up top. But you could do it by playing Diouf up top and Hoillet in the hole and ask those two to provide the width. That way we can stay reasonably central and compact in the middle 3 and still bomb both full backs on.

[BRFCS Content]

This is Kamy.

First of all I think that it time for people to move on, Sam has gone and Kean is the manager, taking the comments of the new owners on face value then he is here for the foreseeable future regardless of results. Of course he still has a lot to prove but it is impossible to judge him after 10 games, at the very very least give him until the end of the season. Having said that, one criticism that I would level at Kean is that maybe he has tried to change to many things to quickly.

Onto the game yesterday, we were in total control for the first quarter of the game. I could see that both times though were quite open defensively but that Rovers were the ones who were exploiting Wigan's weaknesses. We took the lead and should have extended it further and looked in control. Wigan equalise and suddenly we start to fall apart but manage to hold onto half time. The second half starts and we are a shambles, gaping holes in midfield are exposed by Wigan and they take control, the difference between the two sides was that when Wigan took control they converted their chances, even at 3-1 and 4-2 I felt Rovers could get something from the game because we were always posing a threat however again the chances were created but we didn't convert them and that cost us vital points.

Are we in a relegation battle was what I heard from fans on the way home, I would say not quite just yet but we are seriously flirting with it. Next Saturday game is crucial, it is almost a must win game, win and we may have some breathing space, lose and we most definitely will be dumped into a relegation battle. The way that results are going at the bottom of the table with teams providing unexpected results I think that 40-43 points maybe required for safety. Looking at our games from now until the end of the season the next three home games (Newcastle, Blackpool and Birmingham) are critical must win games.

I posted after the Tottenham game that this 4-1-3-2 is something that is causing us problems, now I am not tactical expert and I am sure that Kean sees some merit in playing this formation but from my untrained eye over the last week I have seen Rovers constantly exposed because teams we have played against have genuine width and if we keep our shape then our full backs get exposed to 2 on 1 situations and if our tucked in midfielders trying and close down opposition wide players then there are huge gaps left in the middle of the park which exposes our central defence. The Newcastle match will see up against a team which has a very good central midfield, it might be time to try 4-2-2-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 that will allow Kean to continue to play the new style of football and should offer more solidity defensively. In Dunn, Hoillett and hopefully Formica we have three players who can easily play the advanced forward position that the aforementioned systems require.

Finally would like to say that everyone at the game yesterday should hold up their head with pride, created a fantastic atmosphere, it felt like a home game.