[Archived] John Williams Leaves

[Kelbo]

I don't think it worked like that at Ewood Kelbo. I always had the impression that JW and TF were pretty much running the show and making the big decisions, with the other board members playing supporting roles..

You may be correct, but in law, that is the case, a Chairman can direct the board in a similar way of a Judge to a Jury, then the Jury/Board make their decisions based upon evidence etc. Perhaps Philip can enlighten us here?

[tony gale's mic]

The point I was making and has been lost on people is that it is ok to have an opinion without certain righteous authorities on here calling you stupid for it- as the poster before me was called. I think JW was a quality chairmen but he made mistakes have Venkys, as have I...

IF we had been relegated we would have faced ruin. 60 million wage bill in the Championship would have meant major asset stripping with none of the income coming in, thats my opinion and we would have been similar to Leeds.

I mention RSC because a club our size with the income coming should not be paying that money for any player (whilst the trust were in charge), again my opinion.

In my opinion Wolves and West Brom have the perfect business model in that they spend within their means and if they are relegated they are fuly prepared to get back up.

You are stupid if you say John Williams ran the Walker Trust like the poster before you did. That is factually incorrect, not an opinion and it beggars belief how anyone with even a passing interest in Blackburn Rovers can consider that to be the case. I have stressed this point three times to you now but still you seem remarkably incapable of understanding it.

Comparing us to Leeds is, again, totally off the mark. We did NOT pay players Champions League wages on the whole. We DID (and do) work relegation clauses into players' contracts, something if the press were to be believed Leeds didn't do (and why would they when they were planning for Champions' League football). We did NOT spend our way into debt with £100 million worth of players in 4 years like Leeds United did. You say 'none of the income coming in', however relegated Premier League clubs get parachute payments for three years, so actually we would have had a fair amount of the money coming in to cover some of the discrepancies. Again, more factually inaccurate nonsense.

You are comparing one of the most financially mismanaged clubs in Premier League history with a club with a reputation for being one of the most financially sound in the league. You are more than entitled to your opinion. However, if I stated an opinion saying Keith Andrews was better than Lionel Messi I'd expect to be called stupid multiple times on here, and similarly (although granted not in such an extreme manner) your opinions are also utterly stupid. I have absolutely no qualms in saying this as I have given numerous reasons why we would not have ended up like Leeds United - all of which you've chosen to ignore.

You say Wolves and West Brom have the perfect business model. Is that why we've finished top 10 in 5 out of the last 6 seasons with only one serious relegation battle and they've consistently yo-yoed between the leagues? I'd much rather be a Blackburn Rovers fan thanks.

We don't know how we'll be if and when we do get relegated, and to be fair now the Trust have gone we might never know how things would've been under their model (for better or for worse). But saying we would've done a Leeds ignores numerous basic facts about the situation Leeds were in which don't apply to us in any way, shape or form.

[PAFELL]

You are stupid if you say John Williams ran the Walker Trust like the poster before you did. That is factually incorrect, not an opinion and it beggars belief how anyone with even a passing interest in Blackburn Rovers can consider that to be the case. I have stressed this point three times to you now but still you seem remarkably incapable of understanding it.

Comparing us to Leeds is, again, totally off the mark. We did NOT pay players Champions League wages on the whole. We DID (and do) work relegation clauses into players' contracts, something if the press were to be believed Leeds didn't do (and why would they when they were planning for Champions' League football). We did NOT spend our way into debt with £100 million worth of players in 4 years like Leeds United did. You say 'none of the income coming in', however relegated Premier League clubs get parachute payments for three years, so actually we would have had a fair amount of the money coming in to cover some of the discrepancies. Again, more factually inaccurate nonsense.

You are comparing one of the most financially mismanaged clubs in Premier League history with a club with a reputation for being one of the most financially sound in the league. You are more than entitled to your opinion. However, if I stated an opinion saying Keith Andrews was better than Lionel Messi I'd expect to be called stupid multiple times on here, and similarly (although granted not in such an extreme manner) your opinions are also utterly stupid. I have absolutely no qualms in saying this as I have given numerous reasons why we would not have ended up like Leeds United - all of which you've chosen to ignore.

You say Wolves and West Brom have the perfect business model. Is that why we've finished top 10 in 5 out of the last 6 seasons with only one serious relegation battle and they've consistently yo-yoed between the leagues? I'd much rather be a Blackburn Rovers fan thanks.

We don't know how we'll be if and when we do get relegated, and to be fair now the Trust have gone we might never know how things would've been under their model (for better or for worse). But saying we would've done a Leeds ignores numerous basic facts about the situation Leeds were in which don't apply to us in any way, shape or form.

Yor right in saying there is nothing to compare Leeds and Rovers. Ledds acted stupidly amd got their just deserts. Rovers have acted prudently and have continued the way they have done. But I do recall JW saying, I think it was around Ince being sacked. That if Rovers were relegated or new owners / financial investment didn't come in, Rovers could be in serious trouble. including survival as a footbal club. Then there was the haste to get the wage bill down - I think £5mill off the wage bill was the target.

[imy9]

John Williams didn't "run" the Walker Trust.

He had absolutely no control over the amount of money the Walkers gave to Rovers.

He was responsible for making the best business plan from the various revenue streams available to Rovers, which included our paltry support from our owners and our paltry amount collected on the gate (in comparison with our competitors).

It beggars belief how some of our fans can be so stupid...

What I had an issue with, still have. No I dont think JW ran the trust but the business model was flawed.

You obviously have a business background and know more than these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte

Deloitee said that we were approaching the "danger level" in our cost management, with 85 per cent wages to turnover. Scarily which club do they same about? Portsmouth...

Pop quiz which club with a similar turnover to ours, nearly went into administration when they were relegated from the PL? Hull City.

JW did the best he could but it was NOT and is NOT the best business model.

[PAFELL]

What I had an issue with, still have. No I dont think JW ran the trust but the business model was flawed.

You obviously have a business background and know more than these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte

Deloitee said that we were approaching the "danger level" in our cost management, with 85 per cent wages to turnover. Scarily which club do they same about? Portsmouth...

Pop quiz which club with a similar turnover to ours, nearly went into administration when they were relegated from the PL? Hull City.

JW did the best he could but it was NOT and is NOT the best business model.

May have been approaching the dangerous level - which can happen in any business. But under JW they made attempts to do something about it. Sadly it meant selling the best players. Duff, Bentley, RSC all were sold for big money that the club needed at the time. Lack of or very much reduced transfer activity for quite awhile in order to balance the books.

Take WHU. Already in massive debt, last I heard was £120 mill, yet taking on more players, hardly selling. Want to move to the new olympic stadium - which will cost them at least £95 mill. That club could very soon be in over 200 million in debt - with new owners. Rovers position is far more stable and that is down to JW after the death of Jack Walker. The pot of money that once was, dried up. Funding was with drawn. Therefore all of a sudden the business model had to change. Rovers having paid out money for players, winning the prem, relegation, income and outcome all chnaged, all took their toil on the club. Thanks has to be given to JW for what he has done for Rovers. Debateable as to weither he was the best or not, we all have entitled opinions on that, but he did what was nessasary for the club. What I do find remarkable was the bold steps that were taken. Rovers needed money when the trustees stopped funding. Yet the club reduced season ticket prices. They could have gone the other way and asked the fans to cough up more. John Williams did the job that he had to do and that had to be done. Respect then should be given as it is due to him. On saturday v newcastle the fans should chant his name.

[philipl]

imy9 you are in a minority when it comes to being disrespectful to JW.

The guy achieved miracles as Chairman of Rovers. Yes he made some mistakes but by and large his business judgements for Rovers were excellent and he was a superb safe pair of hands. I fear his maturity of judgement and the respect with which he was held throughout the industry will be enormously missed by new owners whose public persona seems to be cultivated to project that they do not yet know what they are doing.

What the Venkys are doing at present seems to be part ego-driven glitz part hair shirt part leaning on Kentaro who always bat for the other side in football. What it doesn't look like at present is a business plan, failing or otherwise.

[tonyoz]

imy9 you are in a minority when it comes to being disrespectful to JW.

The guy achieved miracles as Chairman of Rovers. Yes he made some mistakes but by and large his business judgements for Rovers were excellent and he was a superb safe pair of hands. I fear his maturity of judgement and the respect with which he was held throughout the industry will be enormously missed by new owners whose public persona seems to be cultivated to project that they do not yet know what they are doing.

What the Venkys are doing at present seems to be part ego-driven glitz part hair shirt part leaning on Kentaro who always bat for the other side in football. What it doesn't look like at present is a business plan, failing or otherwise.

I don't think imy9 is being disrespectful to JW. He is one of our most optimistic posters and good on him for that. I think he is trying to put some balance into the debate - and if you keep posting totally negative stuff as in the paragraphs above then who can blame him?

[philipl]

Tony, do you discern a business plan in all this?

I hope they have one but it is well-hidden by a lot of noise at present.

[PAFELL]

Tony, do you discern a business plan in all this?

I hope they have one but it is well-hidden by a lot of noise at present.

Even though clouded at the moment, it is still better than the plan the Walker trust had. Theirs was to sell and get rid.

[CrazyIvan]

Tony, do you discern a business plan in all this?

I hope they have one but it is well-hidden by a lot of noise at present.

No, I don't but then we haven't been privy to any of the internal conversations. What is clear is that some players have signed new contracts on the back of a plan that has been revealed to them, that's what we've been told anyway. They have some sort of plan, I just don't think any of can see what it is or, frankly, the wood for the trees at the moment (and that's not our fault...).

[tonyoz]

Tony, do you discern a business plan in all this?

I hope they have one but it is well-hidden by a lot of noise at present.

No, it's not clear. But you have to accept that this is a very successful business family and we have to hope that they are fast learners. They have made lots of mistakes but I am prepared to make allowances during this learning period.

Desai needs to stop giving interviews. Comments like "JW lost interest" sound awful - I tell myself that she didn't mean it like it came out! The family needs a proper mouthpiece - hopefully our new chairperson?

I applaud the efforts to bring brighter football to Ewood. I think the incomings during the transfer window were sensible and set out the stall for our future direction. Bringing on young players with real potential (both homegrown and foreign) and loaning experienced high quality players (some maybe with flaws - like RSC) is one way we might be able to compete at the top end of the table. There ain't gonna be no other way.

[Wiggy]

What is clear is that some players have signed new contracts on the back of a plan that has been revealed to them, that's what we've been told anyway.

Maybe they've signed new contracts because they've been offered deals, so big, that they too good to turn down at this stage of their careers. Commitments that have been put on the running costs of Blackburn Rovers Football Club.

[thenodrog]

Tony, do you discern a business plan in all this?

I hope they have one but it is well-hidden by a lot of noise at present.

Any business plans might well have it's origins in Switzerland. BRFC represented a low level but solid and very cheap route into the Premiership. A solid established English Premier League Club with excellent infrastructure and facilities with which to introduce and showcase talent from South America and the developing world. Like most of the developing world there is a fatal fascination with western culture and associated razzamatazz. 'Showing off' by displaying wealth seems irresistable. I've a feeling that the Rao's would have been soft targets. Early days but only Mrs Desai seems to have any business acumen but in her own words not the slightest knowledge of football or the football markets. Perfect targets for a sharp operator like Anderson. And a perfect situation to steal a march on the opposition. Remember football is competetive but this list will illustrate that the football agency business is even more so.... http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=eng/footballofficials/agents/peoplekind=pag.html

Against this from the Rao's (and BRFC's) point of view is the relatively recent drop in the transfer market and the increase in the loan market. There is however no downside for Kentaro as their income is derived from agency fees from their player clients. It's win win for them. Tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but imo Kentaro are running rings around Venkeys, they make the money whatever happens whilst the Rao family shoulder any risk.

Unless I'm missing something that is my instinct on the situation.

[philipl]

No, it's not clear. But you have to accept that this is a very successful business family and we have to hope that they are fast learners. They have made lots of mistakes but I am prepared to make allowances during this learning period.

Desai needs to stop giving interviews. Comments like "JW lost interest" sound awful - I tell myself that she didn't mean it like it came out! The family needs a proper mouthpiece - hopefully our new chairperson?

I applaud the efforts to bring brighter football to Ewood. I think the incomings during the transfer window were sensible and set out the stall for our future direction. Bringing on young players with real potential (both homegrown and foreign) and loaning experienced high quality players (some maybe with flaws - like RSC) is one way we might be able to compete at the top end of the table. There ain't gonna be no other way.

Having worked with charities and foundations, I can tell you that very often the worst people to have around are very successful business people.

Yes they run the things they know like well-oiled machines but get them into an area they volunteer to be involved in and they assume they are the ones who know, the egos take over and business sense flies out of the window. This is so often the case with glamour non-core business purchases as well.

Not saying it applies to Venky's but what is being said publicly (and what is going on behind the scenes) gives me no sense of confidence or that they knew what they were doing when they bought Rovers.

[Kelbo]

Any business plans might well have it's origins in Switzerland. BRFC represented a low level but solid and very cheap route into the Premiership. A solid established English Premier League Club with excellent infrastructure and facilities with which to introduce and showcase talent from South America and the developing world. Like most of the developing world there is a fatal fascination with western culture and associated razzamatazz. 'Showing off' by displaying wealth seems irresistable. I've a feeling that the Rao's would have been soft targets. Early days but only Mrs Desai seems to have any business acumen but in her own words not the slightest knowledge of football or the football markets. Perfect targets for a sharp operator like Anderson.

Against this from the Rao's (and BRFC's) point of view is the relatively recent drop in the transfer market and the increase in the loan market. There is however no downside for Kentaro as their income is derived from agency fees from their player clients. It's win win for them. Tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but imo Kentaro are running rings around Venkeys, they make the money whatever happens whilst the Rao family shoulder any risk.

Unless I'm missing something that is my instinct on the situation.

I think you have it in a nutshell, thats exactly what is happening!!

[imy9]

imy9 you are in a minority when it comes to being disrespectful to JW.

The guy achieved miracles as Chairman of Rovers. Yes he made some mistakes but by and large his business judgements for Rovers were excellent and he was a superb safe pair of hands. I fear his maturity of judgement and the respect with which he was held throughout the industry will be enormously missed by new owners whose public persona seems to be cultivated to project that they do not yet know what they are doing.

What the Venkys are doing at present seems to be part ego-driven glitz part hair shirt part leaning on Kentaro who always bat for the other side in football. What it doesn't look like at present is a business plan, failing or otherwise.

Disrespectful? How exactly, for highlighting that he made mistakes? Thank you Tony for clarifing what I was doing. Phillip would you agree that Venkys are Excellent business people based on what they have done previously and that they have a record for success?

[47er]

I don't think imy9 is being disrespectful to JW. He is one of our most optimistic posters and good on him for that. I think he is trying to put some balance into the debate - and if you keep posting totally negative stuff as in the paragraphs above then who can blame him?

Balance????? are you taking the p*ss? He's just a mouthpiece for everything Venkys.

I'm not in the John Williams Worship Club, I think he did a good job in difficult circumstances.

But I also believe Venkys have made numerous mistakes which were needless and would never have happened if they had taken the best advice.

There's a bit of balance for you.

[imy9]

Balance????? are you taking the p*ss? He's just a mouthpiece for everything Venkys.

I'm not in the John Williams Worship Club, I think he did a good job in difficult circumstances.

But I also believe Venkys have made numerous mistakes which were needless and would never have happened if they had taken the best advice.

There's a bit of balance for you.

Here is a question for you 47er, can you find me a post anywhere that I have not criticised the mistakes that Venkys have made? Can you find a post where I have not praised JW for the job that he has done? Is this not balance.. but wait I dare to hold an opinion that Venkys maybe, just maybe want to make us successful and that there mistakes, yes mistakes are due to them being new to football and are not terminal mistakes but ones that can be corrected.

[Fife Rover]

Any business plans might well have it's origins in Switzerland. BRFC represented a low level but solid and very cheap route into the Premiership. A solid established English Premier League Club with excellent infrastructure and facilities with which to introduce and showcase talent from South America and the developing world. Like most of the developing world there is a fatal fascination with western culture and associated razzamatazz. 'Showing off' by displaying wealth seems irresistable. I've a feeling that the Rao's would have been soft targets. Early days but only Mrs Desai seems to have any business acumen but in her own words not the slightest knowledge of football or the football markets. Perfect targets for a sharp operator like Anderson. And a perfect situation to steal a march on the opposition. Remember football is competetive but this list will illustrate that the football agency business is even more so.... http://www.fifa.com/...lekind=pag.html

Against this from the Rao's (and BRFC's) point of view is the relatively recent drop in the transfer market and the increase in the loan market. There is however no downside for Kentaro as their income is derived from agency fees from their player clients. It's win win for them. Tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but imo Kentaro are running rings around Venkeys, they make the money whatever happens whilst the Rao family shoulder any risk.

Unless I'm missing something that is my instinct on the situation.

For once Theno you appear to have actually taken your own advice to others and thought things through properly. You may well be right about Kentaro and their relarionship with the Venkys, but having said that you could also be either somewhat off the mark or anything up to completely wrong. There is no way of telling from the positions any of us as supporters are in at present. All we can do is speculate, and whilst I tend to agree with your view of the situation, it is impossible for any of us to actually know; therefore we ALL need to tread to very carefully in what we say in public.

I firmly believe that until we are given any positive proof that there is indeed something to worry about we should all continue to support not just BRFC but it's owners as well until such time as we actually see proof of the need to worry. It does no good at all for anybody concerned to have all this ongoing speculation and rumuor mongering, which only leads to people falling out and unpleasentness in general.

[deftangel]

Balance????? are you taking the p*ss? He's just a mouthpiece for everything Venkys.

What? Are people not reading on this messageboard anymore? What's more disrespectful, his opinion or William's tenure or a cheap dig like that? We are all supposed to be Rovers fans here.

The strategy in recent years of over-paying on wages to attract/retain the right talent to keep us in the league was not sustainable. It gets even more unsustainable with the UEFA stuff coming down the pipe. The solution has to be to try and develop more revenue from other sources & markets. For all the good things that he has done, this is not generally something Williams has been particularly noted for achieving. I've read many comments on these boards over the years suggesting that our commercial operations of the club have been poor. From the club shop to difficulties for casual fans to get tickets to marketing and promotion around Lancashire.

I say that completely acknowledging the good work the club have done in that area including the Taking back Ewood campaigns and the best value ticket prices in the league. Worthwhile initiatives that make it even harder to generate more revenue.

Clearly, boosting the revenue of the club is going to take some radical thinking. Venky's plan may or may not work but they appear to at least want to try and do something different as opposed to the previous administration who were in my view, overly conservative.

But if holding that opinion makes me some kind of Venky's spin doctor, I might as well delete my 9 year old account here now.

[imy9]

What? Are people not reading on this messageboard anymore? What's more disrespectful, his opinion or William's tenure or a cheap dig like that? We are all supposed to be Rovers fans here.

The strategy in recent years of over-paying on wages to attract/retain the right talent to keep us in the league was not sustainable. It gets even more unsustainable with the UEFA stuff coming down the pipe. The solution has to be to try and develop more revenue from other sources & markets. For all the good things that he has done, this is not generally something Williams has been particularly noted for achieving. I've read many comments on these boards over the years suggesting that our commercial operations of the club have been poor. From the club shop to difficulties for casual fans to get tickets to marketing and promotion around Lancashire.

I say that completely acknowledging the good work the club have done in that area including the Taking back Ewood campaigns and the best value ticket prices in the league. Worthwhile initiatives that make it even harder to generate more revenue.

Clearly, boosting the revenue of the club is going to take some radical thinking. Venky's plan may or may not work but they appear to at least want to try and do something different as opposed to the previous administration who were in my view, overly conservative.

But if holding that opinion makes me some kind of Venky's spin doctor, I might as well delete my 9 year old account here now.

+10

[dubdubdub]

Take WHU. Already in massive debt, last I heard was £120 mill, yet taking on more players, hardly selling. Want to move to the new olympic stadium - which will cost them at least £95 mill. That club could very soon be in over 200 million in debt - with new owners.

They are now in over 200 million of debt then. I think a lot of people will regret this decision.

[tonyoz]

Having worked with charities and foundations, I can tell you that very often the worst people to have around are very successful business people.

Yes they run the things they know like well-oiled machines but get them into an area they volunteer to be involved in and they assume they are the ones who know, the egos take over and business sense flies out of the window. This is so often the case with glamour non-core business purchases as well.

Not saying it applies to Venky's but what is being said publicly (and what is going on behind the scenes) gives me no sense of confidence or that they knew what they were doing when they bought Rovers.

I know what you're saying. Mrs Desai will have to keep the boys in order. I think she is capable of that when the dust settles.

[Miker]

What I had an issue with, still have. No I dont think JW ran the trust but the business model was flawed.

You obviously have a business background and know more than these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte

Deloitee said that we were approaching the "danger level" in our cost management, with 85 per cent wages to turnover. Scarily which club do they same about? Portsmouth...

Pop quiz which club with a similar turnover to ours, nearly went into administration when they were relegated from the PL? Hull City.

JW did the best he could but it was NOT and is NOT the best business model.

Hang on a second, before we get ahead of ourselves, you're posting tidbits that you've copy-pasted from websites without specifying important details. Such as this website, http://www.1000goals.com/club-by-club-premier-league-finance-review

It talks about us reaching the danger levels in the 2006-2007 season, a little point you failed to mention. Yet, in the following season 2007-2008 we were at a 70% level according to this website: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/table/2009/jun/03/premier-league-turnover-wages-debt

It had clearly gone down considerably and was at quite a modest level compared to other clubs. From that table we can see that we had the lowest debt, not counting the clubs that had gotten promoted that season (Hull, Stoke, WBA). Likewise, our wage/turnover ratio was on par with clubs like Fulham and Bolton. Sunderland were doing slightly better, but had only been promoted the season before. The other clubs were earning revenue far surpassing what we could get (other than Wigan and Middlesbrough, but their ratio was worse than ours). West Brom, who you say have a good business model, were close to the so called "danger" levels at 80% while in the Championship!

I would like to see figures posted for a few years, but I am confident we'd see that our financial status has been quite steady over the years and on par with other prudently-run clubs.

I won't even start asking what you think IS the best business model to follow.

[imy9]

Hang on a second, before we get ahead of ourselves, you're posting tidbits that you've copy-pasted from websites without specifying important details. Such as this website, http://www.1000goals.com/club-by-club-premier-league-finance-review

It talks about us reaching the danger levels in the 2006-2007 season, a little point you failed to mention. Yet, in the following season 2007-2008 we were at a 70% level according to this website: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/table/2009/jun/03/premier-league-turnover-wages-debt

It had clearly gone down considerably and was at quite a modest level compared to other clubs. From that table we can see that we had the lowest debt, not counting the clubs that had gotten promoted that season (Hull, Stoke, WBA). Likewise, our wage/turnover ratio was on par with clubs like Fulham and Bolton. Sunderland were doing slightly better, but had only been promoted the season before. The other clubs were earning revenue far surpassing what we could get (other than Wigan and Middlesbrough, but their ratio was worse than ours). West Brom, who you say have a good business model, were close to the so called "danger" levels at 80% while in the Championship!

I would like to see figures posted for a few years, but I am confident we'd see that our financial status has been quite steady over the years and on par with other prudently-run clubs.

I won't even start asking what you think IS the best business model to follow.

I mentioned the figure 90% and that was a couple of years ago and thats what we were talking about, not right now.

If you look at similar sized clubs with similar wages to turnover ratios that have been relegated they have been badly affected, for example, Portsmouth, Leeds, Hull City, Hull being the best example as their wage level is close to ours as is their turnover.

West Brom and Wolves have an excellent business plan in my opinion because what the figures dont take into account is the SKY money. When you are paying 60 million on wages and you lose 40 million income its going to hit you harder if you are paying half the money in wages.

The clubs you mention, like Bolton, Wigan, Fulham, Sunderland ALL have rich owners who are prepared to write off debt and support the club whatever division, what would the trust have done?

Edit- Matty, we finished 15th a number of times and were close to relegation a number of times, including the Ince era, IF we had been relegated IMO we would not have come back up again, would have sold our best players and been languishing in the lower regions of the championships, this has not/ will not happen to Wolves/West Brom because as a business model, they can sustain a relegation hit due to the way that they are set up.