[Archived] Barclays Mortgage or Charge

[Alan75]

If there is a need to be scared. Then questions should be asked of the trustees who sold the club to the Venky's. Did not both parties do DD. The trust must have known how and where the money was coming from for Venky's to buy the club.

If Venky's bought the club by putting debt onto the club - destroys any so called clauses the Trustees had to abide by when they sold the club.

Why blame the trustees,fans were begging them to sell the club.

Do you or anyone of us actually know what clauses were relevant or existed.

If or when you sell your house, do you ask the buyer where he got the money from. It's usually financed by a building society loan.

The worry is that if youve extended your financial limits to purchase a house, without digging into your own pocket to repay the load, what do you do.

I suspect start selling assets.

And if and when your assets eventually run out, the building society reposesses and they asset strip before putting your house up for sale at auction.

[PAFELL]

Why blame the trustees,fans were begging them to sell the club.

Do you or anyone of us actually know what clauses were relevant or existed.

If or when you sell your house, do you ask the buyer where he got the money from. It's usually financed by a building society loan.

The worry is that if youve extended your financial limits to purchase a house, without digging into your own pocket to repay the load, what do you do.

I suspect start selling assets.

And if and when your assets eventually run out, the building society reposesses and they asset strip before putting your house up for sale at auction.

Your right about many of the fans were wanting the trustees to sell the club. That was because the trust did not want to fund the club anymore.

With regards to the so called clause. You are right we do not know what they were. But during the takeover speculation, we had it for months, various posts on this board, that there were clauses that prevented the club being sold with debt being put on the club. But if the Venky's have bought the club in this way, it can only mean that that particular clause didn't exsist.

[Goldcan]

Before every one starts panicking over nothing, answer me this. What are the current interest rates in India?

If they are more than the current very low cost of borrowing in this country then what Venkys have done could will be a shrewd business move.

Sent from my HTC Desire

[philipl]

Before every one starts panicking over nothing, answer me this. What are the current interest rates in India?

If they are more than the current very low cost of borrowing in this country then what Venkys have done could will be a shrewd business move.

Sent from my HTC Desire

Agreed but please don't use the Rovers as the security.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

You cant help but sigh heavily and pray for the best reading this thread...the 'secure' era of JW is well and truly a distant memory now you feel.

[Lancs Rover]

After reading this thread, from beginning to end, it seems to me, financially illiterate as I am, that the outstanding fact is that no-one knows how much money the Venky's have. People have drawn a conclusion, implicitly in their posts, that this indicates mal-intent. In life, we generally don't trust people who seem to be hiding something that they know is important to us. I think we have been looking in the wrong place for answers and won't find complete ones in the financial cupboard.

I guess the Venky's opaque position could have been adopted because they don't want to say openly or they can't say.

Bifurcating away, I would also guess that revealing their wealth would either show up their lack of substance - not good for the business as a whole - or their relative wealth, not a handy strategy in football or most businesses, for that matter. Why show your full hand to your rivals? It wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is almost taken for granted in business, in my experience, to try to avoid handing too much information to others who could use it for nefarious purposes.

Ergo, if Venky's came out and told us exactly where they stood financially, they would probably not even be believed, if only for that reason.

Granted, they made mistakes reading the media and the publicity machine generally. I can't imagine the replacement of management in a - albeit large - food enterprise creating the same public kerfuffle as it did when adopting some of their more parochial business tactics. (Goodnight, Sam, and all that) They might or might not have money, but that is not the same as knowing how to run a football club in England. In other words, finances are one part of a what should be a multi-layered approach to this business. Even with massive amounts of cash, that is no replacement for business acumen and administrative competence. After all, plenty in football have had the cash and crashed the project due to misplaced enthusiasm.

The undercurrent of speculation here seems actually to me to be premised on our national negative preoccupation with rich people's wealth and our ancient distrust of anybody who lives further than the end of our street.

At the end of the day, the Rovers are now a commodity within a global frame. The Venky's have hitched their cart to our wagon. They run a very well known business in India, which isn't Russia or the Balkans or even the USA. In other words, they need us to do well and we need their money, in whatever form. And we all need the players - remember them? - to do well on the field.

Now that's something I can give an opinion on. The squillions of pounds that have been poured into the Premier League since it's inception have only produced four different champions. And we are one of them. That's a lot of disappointed hopes founded on the finances of Sky gravy train. When every club has hundreds of millions of pounds thrown at them, the relative advantage of money becomes diffused and the significance of other factors becomes more pronounced. Liverpool are a superb example of how to squander advantage by misunderstanding what money can buy.

And just one further, sobering point which illustrates how us football fanatics can be duped by our own fanancial fantasies.

Two clubs who voted - as top tier members - for the Premier League breakaway have never even played in it.

Which two?

One is in League One now and the other is not even in the Football League. Notts County and Luton Town.

Be careful what you wish for.

[PAFELL]

After reading this thread, from beginning to end, it seems to me, financially illiterate as I am, that the outstanding fact is that no-one knows how much money the Venky's have. People have drawn a conclusion, implicitly in their posts, that this indicates mal-intent. In life, we generally don't trust people who seem to be hiding something that they know is important to us. I think we have been looking in the wrong place for answers and won't find complete ones in the financial cupboard.

I guess the Venky's opaque position could have been adopted because they don't want to say openly or they can't say.

Bifurcating away, I would also guess that revealing their wealth would either show up their lack of substance - not good for the business as a whole - or their relative wealth, not a handy strategy in football or most businesses, for that matter. Why show your full hand to your rivals? It wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is almost taken for granted in business, in my experience, to try to avoid handing too much information to others who could use it for nefarious purposes.

Ergo, if Venky's came out and told us exactly where they stood financially, they would probably not even be believed, if only for that reason.

Granted, they made mistakes reading the media and the publicity machine generally. I can't imagine the replacement of management in a - albeit large - food enterprise creating the same public kerfuffle as it did when adopting some of their more parochial business tactics. (Goodnight, Sam, and all that) They might or might not have money, but that is not the same as knowing how to run a football club in England. In other words, finances are one part of a what should be a multi-layered approach to this business. Even with massive amounts of cash, that is no replacement for business acumen and administrative competence. After all, plenty in football have had the cash and crashed the project due to misplaced enthusiasm.

The undercurrent of speculation here seems actually to me to be premised on our national negative preoccupation with rich people's wealth and our ancient distrust of anybody who lives further than the end of our street.

At the end of the day, the Rovers are now a commodity within a global frame. The Venky's have hitched their cart to our wagon. They run a very well known business in India, which isn't Russia or the Balkans or even the USA. In other words, they need us to do well and we need their money, in whatever form. And we all need the players - remember them? - to do well on the field.

Now that's something I can give an opinion on. The squillions of pounds that have been poured into the Premier League since it's inception have only produced four different champions. And we are one of them. That's a lot of disappointed hopes founded on the finances of Sky gravy train. When every club has hundreds of millions of pounds thrown at them, the relative advantage of money becomes diffused and the significance of other factors becomes more pronounced. Liverpool are a superb example of how to squander advantage by misunderstanding what money can buy.

And just one further, sobering point which illustrates how us football fanatics can be duped by our own fanancial fantasies.

Two clubs who voted - as top tier members - for the Premier League breakaway have never even played in it.

Which two?

One is in League One now and the other is not even in the Football League. Notts County and Luton Town.

Be careful what you wish for.

Interesting post

[RevidgeBlue]

Revidge perhaps in days gone by one might reasonably have contacted the club about the new charge and hoped for a response. Today I think it highly unlikely there would be a reply.

Blimey Paul, no good just saying that.

Have you asked them for a straightforward explanation or not? You can't not make the request and then accuse them of being secretive.

If you have and they refuse to respond for example, that may indicate there is something to be concerned about and further investigation is needed.

[RevidgeBlue]

Agreed but please don't use the Rovers as the security.

Ermmmm............. yet not a dicky bird from you over the last ten years complaining that the Trustees had put all the Club's assets in their entirety up as security.

Why is that I wonder?

Why is sauce that is good for the goose not suddenly good for the gander?

[PAFELL]

Ermmmm............. yet not a dicky bird from you over the last ten years complaining that the Trustees had put all the Club's assets in their entirety up as security.

Why is that I wonder?

Why is sauce that is good for the goose not suddenly good for the gander?

Also if the current owners are so bad for the club, why did the trusted trustees sell to them?

Did they not both do DD?

The Walker trust did good for the club, that there is no doubt.

But if the Venkys are bad for the club, did the walker trust do the dirty at the end and throw the club to the wolves.

None of this has ever been answered by the so called people in the know.

Why did the trustees sell the club to bad owners - if that is what they are?

[broadsword]

Ermmmm............. yet not a dicky bird from you over the last ten years complaining that the Trustees had put all the Club's assets in their entirety up as security.

Why is that I wonder?

Why is sauce that is good for the goose not suddenly good for the gander?

I am willing to be corrected on this, but when Venky's took over, did they not say that they would clear the outstanding debts? Instead, if I recall correctly this then changed to "servicing the debts".

Now, it would seem after arranging pay-off's for 3 members of staff wgho weren't doing a bad job, giving half the playing squad a pay-rise and getting two players in on loan (1 of whom is a serial crock) we are arranging for a loan on top of the overdraft. Further to that, it seems that the club was bought using loan capital, secured on the very thing it was being used to buy (the club).

That is what is concerning people. And it does seem very different business practice to that used by the Trustees.

[47er]

I am willing to be corrected on this, but when Venky's took over, did they not say that they would clear the outstanding debts? Instead, if I recall correctly this then changed to "servicing the debts".

Now, it would seem after arranging pay-off's for 3 members of staff wgho weren't doing a bad job, giving half the playing squad a pay-rise and getting two players in on loan (1 of whom is a serial crock) we are arranging for a loan on top of the overdraft. Further to that, it seems that the club was bought using loan capital, secured on the very thing it was being used to buy (the club).

That is what is concerning people. And it does seem very different business practice to that used by the Trustees.

In truth, none of us know. We just have to believe that their intentions are good but their inexperience has led them to make early and (serious) errors. What choice do we have?

[philipl]

Ermmmm............. yet not a dicky bird from you over the last ten years complaining that the Trustees had put all the Club's assets in their entirety up as security.

Why is that I wonder?

Why is sauce that is good for the goose not suddenly good for the gander?

Having written the review of the club's annual report for the last seven years, I reported on it for seven years running and explained the reason why the Trust converted £85m of debt into equity was so that the bank could have asset security.

Do keep up.

[thenodrog]

Also if the current owners are so bad for the club, why did the trusted trustees sell to them?

Did they not both do DD? The Walker trust did good for the club, that there is no doubt.

But if the Venkys are bad for the club, did the walker trust do the dirty at the end and throw the club to the wolves.

None of this has ever been answered by the so called people in the know.

Why did the trustees sell the club to bad owners - if that is what they are?

The very best that we can hope for is that there is a long term strategy of selling at the top in order to buy back at the bottom sometime in the future...... But don't count on it.

[True Blue & White]

After reading this thread, from beginning to end, it seems to me, financially illiterate as I am, that the outstanding fact is that no-one knows how much money the Venky's have. People have drawn a conclusion, implicitly in their posts, that this indicates mal-intent.

No, it indicates they aren't very wealthy. Once you get past a certain point of wealth it's very hard to hide it. This idea that the Raos are billionaires and somehow managed to keep that secret from the rest of the world until some Daily Mail hack uncovered their huge wealth is laughable.

There are plenty of indicators to their true wealth only they don't point to the playboy billionaires some people want to believe they are so instead say stuff like "the outstanding fact is that no-one knows how much money the Venky's have" as it avoids having to succumb to reality.

In life, we generally don't trust people who seem to be hiding something that they know is important to us. I think we have been looking in the wrong place for answers and won't find complete ones in the financial cupboard.

We don't trust people who lie and keep things from us for good reason!

I guess the Venky's opaque position could have been adopted because they don't want to say openly or they can't say.

Bifurcating away, I would also guess that revealing their wealth would either show up their lack of substance - not good for the business as a whole - or their relative wealth, not a handy strategy in football or most businesses, for that matter. Why show your full hand to your rivals? It wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is almost taken for granted in business, in my experience, to try to avoid handing too much information to others who could use it for nefarious purposes.

I don't know what you mean by "revealing their wealth", do other chairman have to submit their bank balances to the fans every week or something?

The only difference is that most other chairmen/owners have provable wealth from an understandable source, our owners just talk a good game but in reality don't have the cash to back up most of their claims.

In fact Venky's are doing the opposite of what you claim because they keep making statements that imply they are wealthy, and how many times has Baliji shown his car collection off to a British journalist?

There is no secrecy, the billionaire bank balance just simply doesn't exist...simple as. Anyone who think there is one is only creating one in their head so they can go on believing the Rao family are actually billionaires.

The undercurrent of speculation here seems actually to me to be premised on our national negative preoccupation with rich people's wealth and our ancient distrust of anybody who lives further than the end of our street.

I actually find that offensive. What you are essentially saying is if anyone has the temerity to be slightly concerned about our club must be a racist/xenophobe.

The latest news is worrying whether we owned by an Alien or a Darwen born and bred resident, it has nothing to do with being frightened of 'brown people'...

At the end of the day, the Rovers are now a commodity within a global frame. The Venky's have hitched their cart to our wagon. They run a very well known business in India, which isn't Russia or the Balkans or even the USA. In other words, they need us to do well and we need their money, in whatever form. And we all need the players - remember them? - to do well on the field.

Firstly can you (and others) stop calling the "The Venky's", it sounds stupid and I don't get the relevance of the countries they aren't doing business in that you have listed.

They may need us to do well (at least stay in the EPL) but that intention doesn't relate to how well they will do at achieving it. All new owners have good intentions but not all end with good outcomes.

Two clubs who voted - as top tier members - for the Premier League breakaway have never even played in it.

Which two?

One is in League One now and the other is not even in the Football League. Notts County and Luton Town.

Be careful what you wish for.

So what's your point, don't see how that relates to Rovers at all and even if it hadn't become the 'Premiership' that wouldn't have meant Notts County or Luton would have made it back into Division One in that time either.

[CrazyIvan]

Amazing. Post after post arguing over what amounts to something that may or may not be used. Something that nobody can quite explain at least clearly and concisely without prejudice. It apparently shows that Venky's have little or no money. Really? How do you open businesses in various parts of the world without money? Is it all a smokescreen and Rovers are going to be screwed by asset strippers?

Why exactly, True Blue and White, have Venkys purchased the club?

[philipl]

If they are not using the facility, the Venky's are even crazier than they would be if they are using it crazy Ivan.

[Lancs Rover]

Electronic curtain-twitching.

Or should I say: If some people so sure they are right, what are you going to do about it?

Before we end up like Luton Town?

(Besides moaning anonymously on your boys-toys, of course.)

N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

[CrazyIvan]

If they are not using the facility, the Venky's are even crazier than they would be if they are using it crazy Ivan.

And?

[Lancs Rover]

No, it indicates they aren't very wealthy. Once you get past a certain point of wealth it's very hard to hide it. This idea that the Raos are billionaires and somehow managed to keep that secret from the rest of the world until some Daily Mail hack uncovered their huge wealth is laughable.

There are plenty of indicators to their true wealth only they don't point to the playboy billionaires some people want to believe they are so instead say stuff like "the outstanding fact is that no-one knows how much money the Venky's have" as it avoids having to succumb to reality.

We don't trust people who lie and keep things from us for good reason!

I don't know what you mean by "revealing their wealth", do other chairman have to submit their bank balances to the fans every week or something?

The only difference is that most other chairmen/owners have provable wealth from an understandable source, our owners just talk a good game but in reality don't have the cash to back up most of their claims.

In fact Venky's are doing the opposite of what you claim because they keep making statements that imply they are wealthy, and how many times has Baliji shown his car collection off to a British journalist?

There is no secrecy, the billionaire bank balance just simply doesn't exist...simple as. Anyone who think there is one is only creating one in their head so they can go on believing the Rao family are actually billionaires.

I actually find that offensive. What you are essentially saying is if anyone has the temerity to be slightly concerned about our club must be a racist/xenophobe.

The latest news is worrying whether we owned by an Alien or a Darwen born and bred resident, it has nothing to do with being frightened of 'brown people'...

Firstly can you (and others) stop calling the "The Venky's", it sounds stupid and I don't get the relevance of the countries they aren't doing business in that you have listed.

They may need us to do well (at least stay in the EPL) but that intention doesn't relate to how well they will do at achieving it. All new owners have good intentions but not all end with good outcomes.

So what's your point, don't see how that relates to Rovers at all and even if it hadn't become the 'Premiership' that wouldn't have meant Notts County or Luton would have made it back into Division One in that time either.

Don't build your castles on sand is the message, friend.

Seems this thread is debating which kind of sand is best to build your castle on, how far and fast it's going to sink and who has the best view of it.

Can't honestly tell whether people are waving or drowning.

[Steve Moss]

How favorable is the exchange rate to convert ruppees for pounds? Is it possible that debt is seen as the least worst alternative as money is (to paraphrase Ms. Desai) difficult to get out of India?

[Roversider]

It just shows how some posters choose to take some facts and extrapolate them to whatever end they choose.

Can everyone stop, take a deep breath and think before they post? There is far too much vitriol for my liking and whilst some comments are reasonable concern there are others that are pushing the boundaries of fair discussion.

There is always a risk that this will descend into statements that could be considered libel.

Fact: The Walker Trust sold the club to the Raos.

Fact: They have been in charge for only a few months.

Fact: There have been a number of miscommunications that have encouraged either unbridled optimism or dark predictions.

Fact: There is a facility in place which is secured against future income this season.

.......and then there are piles of supposition ....

We all agree that the PR could be run better, that we wish we knew in detail what was coming and in my case what the winning lottery numbers are!

In the meantime lets be a little bit more patient.

[PAFELL]

It just shows how some posters choose to take some facts and extrapolate them to whatever end they choose.

Can everyone stop, take a deep breath and think before they post? There is far too much vitriol for my liking and whilst some comments are reasonable concern there are others that are pushing the boundaries of fair discussion.

There is always a risk that this will descend into statements that could be considered libel.

Fact: The Walker Trust sold the club to the Raos.

Fact: They have been in charge for only a few months.

Fact: There have been a number of miscommunications that have encouraged either unbridled optimism or dark predictions.

Fact: There is a facility in place which is secured against future income this season.

.......and then there are piles of supposition ....

We all agree that the PR could be run better, that we wish we knew in detail what was coming and in my case what the winning lottery numbers are!

In the meantime lets be a little bit more patient.

Cannot fault this post at all. It is still too early to judge the owners. Even more so to condemn them. They have only owned the club for a few months. We do not know their whole plans. All they have done so far is remove a manager and chairman - right or wrong of the latter, is a matter of individual opinions. But fact is it has been done and we move on. It was also their right and their choice of the owners to do so.

Patience is needed by all Rovers supporters to see what happens from now on.

[John]

All they have done so far is remove a manager and chairman

Manager and chairman are fairly significant positions at any football club - plus due to the timing of these decisions, have they not already broken some of the commitments within the offer document?

[Exiled in Toronto]

Manager and chairman are fairly significant positions at any football club - plus due to the timing of these decisions, have they not already broken some of the commitments within the offer document?

No. They were only committed to keeping Jack's statue and the JAck Walker stand name, which shows that all the Turst really cared about was Jack's memory, not his legacy. All the rest were just statements of intent which are never worth anything. "Once we saw in detail etc etc"