[Archived] Sustained Attempt to Undermine the Club?

[neekoy]

Problem is you (and some others) mention him in every thread, at every available opportunity...

I would rather move on an listen to your thoughts on the performance of the team, good or bad, instead of creating a footnote on everything which says how things would have been different under different circumstances. We have what we have, time some got used to it and learnt to move on.

[neekoy]

Speaking as a non-British reader, I have detected absolutely no preference for British owners and British managers, with the sole exception of the English national team. In fact, the vast majority of the posters seem very open-minded. Examples include wanting Bilic, Bradley, Martin Jol, Henk ten Cate, etc. all as managers for the Rovers.

So what is the basis for your rather shocking charge?

I totally agree with you, I am not British either and see no issue with appointing those Managers you listed however the fact that Ms Desai came out in Dec and declared they are looking for a British Manager speaks volume of what they think will appease the majority of Rovers fans.

go back and check the "Who do you want as Manager" thread.....MON, Souness, Curbishley, McClaren, Brown, McDonald, Holloway, 1. Tugay 2. Berg, Shearer, O'Driscoll, Coleman, Lambert, Dalglish, Hill, Hughes...the list keeps going

Is that enough to support my thoughts without being labled racist?

[jim mk2]

Some want to see the club fail so we can go back to British owners who appoint British managers, this is not racist, just an unwillingness to accept that the Premier League has now only ENGLISH in it's name because that is where it is located.

Where did you get this rubbish from ?

The league is called the Barclays Premier League and to call is by any other name is wrong. And if you mean the "EPL" or any other daft name they call it in the former colonies, I can assure such an entity does not exist.

To get back to the thread title I am not aware of any attempt to undermine the club on here. Certainly there are alot of unhappy people worried about the direction of the club under the new owners but it was noticeable that the mood lifted considerably after the wins over West Brom and Liverpool only for the gloom to descend again after a run of poor results. Twas ever thus.

[sambo]

Where did you get this rubbish from ?

The league is called the Barclays Premier League and to call is by any other name is wrong. And if you mean the "EPL" or any other daft name they call it in the former colonies, I can assure such an entity does not exist.

To get back to the thread title I am not aware of any attempt to undermine the club on here. Certainly there are alot of unhappy people worried about the direction of the club under the new owners but it was noticeable that the mood lifted considerably after the wins over West Brom and Liverpool only for the gloom to descend again after a run of poor results. Twas ever thus.

Your mood has been consistently downbeat however, and you've been sure to snap at anyone showing the slightest hint of optimism or happiness.

[RevidgeBlue]

I agree wholeheartedly with Roverthehill's original post.

Certain posters give the impression they are so opposed to the regime change, the new owners, the removal of the previous manager, and the appointment of the new manager that they will only be happy when the team, and by implication the new owners have failed.

Times move on and change and just because things have been done a certain way in the past doesn't mean they will or would have been done the same way ad infintum in the future.

We are where we are, the previous owners didn't want us seemingly, and they were the ones who had ample opportunity to ensure they sold to the right owners.

Which they may well still have done. Or they might not have done. It's far too early to say either way.

Certain people do not seem even prepared to give the new regime a chance or fair crack of the whip though.

Edit: On a slightly separate issue the point has been well made by others previously that if there ever was any genuine information out there that indicated the Club was in any way at risk, it would be in the Club's and everyone on here's best interests for that information to be brought into the Public domain as soon as possible.

Not pretending or hinting that you have access to info indicating all is not well etc. etc.

[neekoy]

Where did you get this rubbish from ?

The league is called the Barclays Premier League and to call is by any other name is wrong. And if you mean the "EPL" or any other daft name they call it in the former colonies, I can assure such an entity does not exist.

Considering the BBC use the term all the time, what else are us former colonies to think?

See post above for explanation

[Steve Moss]

I totally agree with you, I am not British either and see no issue with appointing those Managers you listed however the fact that Ms Desai came out in Dec and declared they are looking for a British Manager speaks volume of what they think will appease the majority of Rovers fans.

go back and check the "Who do you want as Manager" thread.....MON, Souness, Curbishley, McClaren, Brown, McDonald, Holloway, 1. Tugay 2. Berg, Shearer, O'Driscoll, Coleman, Lambert, Dalglish, Hill, Hughes...the list keeps going

Is that enough to support my thoughts without being labled racist?

1. Ms. Desai [allegedly] thinking a British manager will appease the majority of Rovers fans says more about Ms. Desai than its does about the majority of Rovers fans, if true.

2. The "Who do you want to as Manager" thread contained a mix of British and non-British suggestions, with no clear demarcation between a preference for British managers as compared to non-British managers. Overwhelming the desire was for a competent manager with a proven track record. Nationality never entered the picture, so far as I recall.

3. The person to have raised the issue of race in the first place was you. No one labeled you a rascist, a courtesy which you did not extend to others if I read your initial post correctly. Unless I am mistaken in what you were attempting to communicate, which I hope I am. If I am, you have my apologies. If not, you don't.

On the issue of nationality, I do recall the Rao family expressing a desire to bring talented Indian youth over to Blackburn to develop Indian players sufficiently that they can conduct themselves well within the PL. Which I do not believe is rascist or anything else except: 1) Patriotic; and, 2) Good business from a marketing viewpoint. That suggestion has been met with uniform approval on these boards, with the sole caution that standards not be sacrificed and the player(s) actually have the skill and physical aptitude to play well within the PL.

[neekoy]

Points

1. It was plastered all over every report directly quoted from her so I can only suggest whilst I did not hear it personally, barring a loss in translation seems pretty solid

2. There is nothing wrong with people preferring a British Manager, maybe they feel they know the Premier League way of football better then someone who has a pedigree in Spain or whatever. No, there was overwhelming support for British/Connected Managers, yes a couple others were mentioned but the support wasn't there. The thread is still open if you do a search and check for yourself. Poll it, competent and British or competent and Spanish. I have a strong feeling which one will be supported.

3. I am not playing a racist card, you have me all wrong. The basis for my "shocking charge" as you put it yourself was a for a British Manager. You may not know but *whisper* Paul Ince *whisper* is British.

EDIT: My whole point is that people generally want to connect, and this club seems to be an extension of some people who want to connect to something that quite honestly is no longer there anymore. Bitching and moaning about Venky's and flashing the BFS card everytime something goes wrong, is not going to change anything.

[gumboots]

I agree wholeheartedly with Roverthehill's original post.

Certain posters give the impression they are so opposed to the regime change, the new owners, the removal of the previous manager, and the appointment of the new manager that they will only be happy when the team, and by implication the new owners have failed.

Times move on and change and just because things have been done a certain way in the past doesn't mean they will or would have been done the same way ad infintum in the future.

We are where we are, the previous owners didn't want us seemingly, and they were the ones who had ample opportunity to ensure they sold to the right owners.

Which they may well still have done. Or they might not have done. It's far too early to say either way.

Certain people do not seem even prepared to give the new regime a chance or fair crack of the whip though.

Edit: On a slightly separate issue the point has been well made by others previously that if there ever was any genuine information out there that indicated the Club was in any way at risk, it would be in the Club's and everyone on here's best interests for that information to be brought into the Public domain as soon as possible.

Not pretending or hinting that you have access to info indicating all is not well etc. etc.

Basically I've almost stopped reading the board in the last few days and haven't even looked at the post newcastle match thread, because i knew what it would be like. We WERE awful but we could have been equally as awful under any of our previous managers. The point i made earlier somewhere stands. Not enough of our supporters had fallen out of love with our manager before he was sacked. Usually when a manager is sacked there is a groundswell of opinion against him, but here there had developed an acceptance that, although we didn't often play good football, we didn't look too much like going down and every time we seriously flirted with it, we'd pull out just enough results to pull us clear again, so Allardyce never reached the point where most fans said "Thank goodnes" when he went. It meant that whoever followed him, unless they really hit the ground running and swept all before them, were always going to have an uphill task, and to throw an untried manager into the mix was always going to be wrong decision. The owners have done all sorts of things that make them look unreliable in the eyes of some supporters and many of their statements seem contradictory. In that sort of situation, it's very easy for those who have a little knowledge to present the negative stuff they hear in such a way as to make the whole club appear to be under a cloud and in imminent danger. They may very well be hearing this negative stuff from sources they believe to be reliable, and they may be usually reliable posters themselves but a large part of the board now seems to be taken up by those in the know who for whatever reason can't tell us more, and those who refuse to see anything wrong and so appear blindly optimistic. The constant references to the previous manager as in "Under Sam we'd never be in this position" are driving me crackers because they are just not proveable. We needed new owners. we got them. They for whatevr reason got rid of him and that's it. Like or dislike the owners, the manager, what's happening at the club, it's about time to accept that the past is past and move on.

[PAFELL]

It's always gone in cycles, the team plays well and wins stuff, it's a lovely fluffy place with little agro and polite conversation. Things don't go so well, or simply change (people fear change and change is a very negative emotion) and people are at each others throats.

The difference at the moment is we've had years where off the pitch there has been little to moan about and all we've had to worry us was on the pitch (and almost everyone thinks that simply regaining Premiership status is an achievement, so even then, the moans were minor). This has been obvious because people like Vinjay, Waggy, Jan and Gordon have really stood out by being very vocal about stuff being wrong when the rest felt it was pretty good.

However, now we've got the biggest change since before Jack, we've got foreign owners in an area where race relations is already a hot topic and we've had a period of bad results (Ince) followed by bad football (Sam) and now more uncertainty (Kean) and we've lost the one thing almost everyone thought was what kept us "punching above our weight" (John Williams), so effectively just about every emotional button available has been pressed.

We have periods like this before (I remember us putting the forum on "suicide watch" making it read-only after defeats in the Souness era), but we always come through them. The good (well, less uncertain) times will come again, maybe at the hands of Venky's, maybe not. Only time will tell. But we will hit that purple patch again and people will forget about just how rough it is to be a Rovers fan right now.

As for an attempt to undermine the club, there quite possibly is, but it sure as hell isn't starting here. Vinjay was a one man attempt to undermine the club using forums and nobody took him seriously. However, this time it's obvious that quite a number of normally level headed and thoughtful people not known for gossip mongering or panicking have good information sources (or at least ones they trust) much nearer the club than this forum and they are scared. Rightly on wrongly these people believe passionately that the information they are privy to is potentially damaging to the club (or at least the fans) and wanting to protect their club which is something I think is only natural. To me, it's not those concerned about the club that are undermining it, it's those feeding them the info. The question is, is the info good, SHOULD we all be scared ?

Good post.

With regards to the imfo coming out of the club from certain people - if this is the case (as I have noway of knowing either way). In the current climate of job insecurity etc, not many in the club would welcome change or would be scared of change for theor own personal reasons. Therefore, quite naturally would have personal agendas. Not saying that this is the case, but it is something that cannot ever be ruled out. Maybe they are being frozen out now and cannot get the imfo they used to be able to get.

One thing I am amazed at is the silence of people who have left the club. Sam and JW have gone totally quiet. That in itself raises its own concerns / suspicions that something isn't right within the club - this of course is only my personal view. Have they been paid to keep quiet? Have they chosen to do so and have gone to speak to the prem etc about the club? Questions I ask myself.

But all in all it just may well be a different way to the norm of doing business and there is no dodgy stuff going on and we are all just finding it hard to adjust to the changes with the club.

This MB is still a good place to visit, fustrating sometimes, but still ok.

[CrazyIvan]

I'm glad someone has started this debate. Taking a balanced view, in my eyes, is very difficult because of the lack of information. Given that some people apparently have contacts within the club, it's very apparent that the information just isn't being passed on. It's just a hint here or there that there are things wrong. I've heard things too. One of the earliest was that there were a lot of people worried about their jobs within the club following the takeover. Frankly, that's not even newsworthy because, following any takeover (and I've been in some big ones, bank taking over bank for example) everybody is a little scared about their jobs. Rumours abound, people get the wrong impression and views get skewed. Hearing any news following a takeover means everything needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Sacking Sam was a silly move, poorly timed and bound to get people upset if not downright angry. John Williams leaving is another matter entirely and some news is coming out about that. I posted that John Williams had literally nothing to do with the transfers in this time around. They were negotiated by someone else and I'm hoping I'll get the name in a couple of days (news travels slowly...) but it was apparently a Frenchman doing the negotiations. That's John Williams territory and has been for a long time. To take that away from him isn't great BUT a new regime = a new way of doing things. If a key part of your job was taken away from you, you'd be upset. From what I've heard, John Williams literally sat in his office not involved and kept his mouth shut. People in the club were upset by it and the words were they 'could have cried to watch it happen'. Not so clever.

The one thing to take away from all this is that change happens. Whether it's good or bad, you have to roll with it. We, as fans, have to take the news coming out with a pinch of salt and with a clear view that people inside the club are also going to be upset and fearful of change. What matters is what happens next. We still have to support our club and the team on the pitch. Steve Kean still deserves time because nothing is yet clear about which direction we are going under him. The next few months (only because there aren't many games in Feb and March) are key. The truth is that Venkys have a lot of ground to make up with the fans just because of the stupid comments and contradictory statements that came out early on. Losing Sam and John Williams has not helped. We have to look forward though, nothing is going to be gained by holding on to the mistakes Venkys have made and then to keep on bashing them with them on here.

Have we got a choice about what's gone on? No. Can we influence anything in reality? No, not really. Have we got any choice but to trust that Venkys have a plan and are going to do the best for the club in the long term? No. Does it mean we should love everything they do? God no and when things happen that we don't like we have a right to say something. One thing that doesn't help is continual bad mouthing of the owners from previous mistakes made and rumours of hints of bad things happening as we've had. Venkys have got to learn too and it seems they have when it comes down to the press. Keep the faith and support your team. Don't hesitate to speak out when it's needed though.

[Billy Castell]

Put me down as another who barely bothers with this site. I don't know of an effort to undermine the club/manager, but this site is constantly undermined by the constant one-upmanship, name calling and bitching.

[philipl]

I support the Venky's 100% when they say that thety will honour the traditions of the club, support the Management that was in place when they bought it, that John Williams' position is secure and that Jerome Anderson is but one of many advisers and has no significant role in the running of Rovers.

I have done nothing to undermine my support of Venky's.

[alexanders]

or simply change (people fear change and change is a very negative emotion)

This is a common fobia among people.

Metathesiophobia- Fear of changes.

Fear of change is in most cases accompanied by feeling of insecurity and lostness.

Maybe some people on here suffers of this phobia? Completely legal and understandable if they have been following their club for 30 odd years, but they should also consider all the ups and downs this club have had. Such people who never welcome changes and always think in the negative manner are people who is stopping something from developing.

We don't know if it is for the better or the worse than Venky's have come in and hired Kean. John Williams I think would leave regardless of who the new owners was. They only thing we certainly know is everyone wanted new owners because we were staring into the unknown under the Trust.

[philipl]

As a director of many companies my life is about making change happen.

However, I hope I know when to leave things alone that are working. Particularly when life is as perilous as being in the smallest town in the Premier League.

[RoversSG]

I agree that the quality of posts on this board has deteriorated in recent seasons. When i first started reading this site in 06, i thought it was one of the more intelligent boards where we can have good discussions on the club. Sadly, there have been an increase in flaming, baiting, trolling, juvenile name calling since probably a couple of season ago which went up markedly this season. Highly intelligent posters a few seasons ago are now behaving like kids and everyone is responding negatively to every post with differing views.

Lets all take a deep breath everytime we disagree with a post and wait 5 minutes before replying and this board will be the better for it. Alternatively, we could bring back the plus/ minus function and posters who gets a certain number of minus points will be barred from posting for a short period of time.

[Parsonblue]

I thought the whole point of a messageboard was to allow people to express opinions about various aspects of the club they support. Having supported this club for 50 years and continuing to spend a small fortune watching every match - home and away - I think I am entitled to express an opinion or two about the performance or otherwise of my team.

Firstly, the club have needed new owners for some time. The Trust had done a brilliant job but were clearly no longer in a position to continue to provide the financial support required. Nekrooy's attempts to bring race into the debate is absolute rubbish. The nationality of our owners is of no importance whatsoever. All I ask of an owner is that they have the interests of the club at heart and are able to support that club, financially, to the best of their ability. I don't expect them to fritter away their entire wealth to prop up my club. I have no problem with the fact that Mrs. Desai has already admitted that they can't compete financially with the top clubs in this division. Nobody seriously expects them to. If they can keep the Rovers 7th or 8th they will have exceeded all expectations. Nobody expects them to challenge for a top four place if they don't have the same financial resources as United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool etc.

With regard to the choice of manager that is entirely up to Mrs Desai. I don't believe that any fan is remotely bothered about the nationality of the manager as long as he can do the job. Of course supporters will have an opinion about how that manager does his job. I, for one, thought that Sam Allardyce was excellent for this club. I believe that he did a fantastic job and was extremely sorry to see him go. Likewise, I believe that John Williams did a fantastic job for this club and equally disappointed when he left. I was particularly disappointed with the circumstances under which both men left. If expressing that disappointment is seen by others as undermining the club - tough. It's called having an opinion.

Some members obviously have good contacts in and around the club. Information gets out. It always has and it always will. In the past this information was discussed in the pubs whenever fans got together. Today it is discussed on messageboards. Of course the nature of a messageboard means that one should not write what cannot be backed up by evidence. I don't know what evidence people have to back up some of the claims they have made but much of what has been written in recent weeks merely ties in with what one hears when out and about in Blackburn.

Clearly fans have concerns about the future of the club. It's a time of change and it's natural for people to be worried, particularly when one sees what has happened to other clubs following takeovers. The fact that results are not going well, the fact that we have been dragged back into a relegation battle in recent weeks merely heightens those concerns. However, trying to stifle debate by suggesting that those who express concerns about developments are undermining the club is hardly going to diminish the fears of those who are genuinely worried about the future for the Rovers.

Hopefully, Mrs. Desai will prove an exceptional owner. Hopefully Steve Kean will grow into the job and improve results and performances on the pitch. Hopefully the future will see the club safely positioned in the top half of the table year after year. I'm sure every supporter hopes the same but the truth is that at the moment the jury is still out. It's early days and there are obviously going to be teething problems, particularly with Mrs. Desai and her brothers being based so far away. With their main business in India they can't be expected to be at Ewood full time micro-managing the club on a daily basis. Hopefully, once a replacement for John Williams is appointed that person will be able to take control of the PR and ensure that a more positive spin is put on stories coming out of Ewood Park.

As I said earlier, a messageboard should be place where debate can be carried out in a passionate but civil manner. In recent weeks we have had plenty of passion but the civility bit seems to have gone astray. Ultimately, while I might not agree with a particular person's view I respect their right to express that view with the same passion that I express my own views. That is what a messageboard is all about.

[Kelbo]

Brilliant post and so very true, there is unfortunately one thing wrong with messageboards and that is on many occasions, the mood of the posters cannot be correctly interpreted, this can cause friction wheras in a pub for example, it would be far easier to interpret the mood of the person making a comment.

I for one have now decided, in the interests of this Message board, to comment only and not to post things I have been told by people close to and within the club, I will simply PM the people who understand the situation and leave things at that.

To conclude, I asked yesterday a simple question and was ridiculed by one member, suggesting I asked the club/Steve Kean for a copy of his pro License certificate, it was a pertinent question and despite looking at official FA websites, couldnt find evidence of him having one. If that is undermining the club, I dont think it is, I am interested to know when and where he obtained the license, that is all.

[LeChuck]

"Sustained attempt to undermine the club"

Why would anyone want to do that? People are genuinely concerned about what's going on. Nothing more, nothing less.

[thenodrog]

Whether they are founded or unfounded I have lots of concerns .....

1. What motivated the new owners to buy the club in the first place. It can't have been the opportunity to make profit because making profit is as rare as hens teeth in this business. Nothing quite stacks up here.

2. The amount of debt that they may or may not saddle us with should things go wrong.

3. The amount of debt that they may or may not saddle us with should things go right.

4. The naivety of the owners and their seeming reliance on advice from a Sports agent and Sports agency given the Premier League rules on ownership. There was also whiff of a betting scandal soon after they took over that appeared openly in the press (my post was removed and I got a ban for posting a link so I'm not about to do it again). Such involvements and impropriety could easily invoke a heavy financial penalty or a points deduction or both. The club imo is not strong enough to cope with such.

5. The PR coming out of the club since early Dec is ridiculous and is turning the club into a national joke. The owners appear to think that we should swallow every stupid utterence that they come out with and then erase it from our memory within a few days when they come out with a bigger load of bull. Who on here will ever be gullible enough to believe a single word that comes out of Mrs Desai's mouth in the future?

6. The 'disposals' of Allardyce, MacDonald, Williams and seemingly anybody who sided with them e.g. EHD is very worrying. Like em or not they are all 'proper' footballing men of vast experience. Men like that do not grow on trees.

7. BRFC has always been built on common sense and stability. I simply feel that this is no longer the case. The Trust wanted to sell and not many wanted to buy so thats that. Unfortunately the possibility of new owners not being up to the previous mark was very real.

As Dave Whelan said of the takeover "The Blackburn deal doesn't sound right, and it doesn't look right". http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/nov/10/blackburn-venkys-dave-whelan-wigan

At the moment whether it's classed as being undermining or not I'm afraid I share his concerns and his apparent cynicism.

[Amo]

As Dave Whelan said of the takeover "The Blackburn deal doesn't sound right, and it doesn't look right". http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/nov/10/blackburn-venkys-dave-whelan-wigan

At the moment whether it's classed as being undermining or not I'm afraid I'm with him on this.

Yeah, because you can put his word in the bank.

"We've got the best managers in the world here - English, Welsh, Irish and Scots. I'd never entertain a foreign manager for Wigan, and I don't think it's right that England have a foreign manager either."

[dr_awol]

Agree with the original post 100%

it just the bickering old hens, its OK debating facts,(santa resigning good/bad ) but when people start fighting over here say it just become a minded numbing.

Also the stance people choose mostly over venkys and SK, its almost like "guilty until proven innocent", From day one they have not given venkys a chance, every game we lose its venky / SK fault. its not alway venky / SK fault sometimes its footballs fault for making us a midtable team in one of the best leagues in the world.

at the moment where a mid table team we don't / cant win every game even in "fans" mind perceived as a winnable game such as wigan away, as midtable team we will probably lose more games than we will win over a season, but thats the same with most teams around us.

[RovertheHill]

I like good debate as much as the next person but the reason I posed this question was not to stifle debate but because I, and it seems others, are sick of hearing vague hints towards serious problems and issues deep within the club. However when questioned nothing more is forthcoming other than "trust us, we know more than you and it is bad" like those guys who walk around with sandwich boards saying the end is nigh. That isn't debate and I don't think it's what a messageboard is about either. And the second question I posed was if such paths do exist then is the negativity not feeding back into the club and creating a vicious circle? You will see I posed these as questions to stimulate debate and in no way to stifle it. If I wasn't interested in debate then I wouldn't have bothered.

And kelbo, I apologise about my post yesterday but after you'd asked about a dozen times it occurred to me you could actually write to either the club or the FA to find out about the managers badges. It clearly bothers you

[broadsword]

Whether they are founded or unfounded I have lots of concerns .....

1. What motivated the new owners to buy the club in the first place. It can't have been the opportunity to make profit because making profit is as rare as hens teeth in this business. Nothing quite stacks up here.

Don't think they would be daft enough to try to make an operating profit from running the club. The idea was to make Rovers India's club, "growing the brand" over there with Venky's contacts, sellign merchandise maybe, TV rights, I'm not exactly sure. football academies etc etc.

Just because Rovers is owned by Venky's, I don't think that would mean squat to your average Indian. They're more likely to follow Man Utd or Liverpool. The only reason someone would follow Rovers if they're not from the area, is because they have some sort of link to the club. You get rare cases of people liking the kit or whatever, but they are very much the minority.

My concern right now is that Venky's are operating at the limit of their budget for us. That's 2 youth players brought in, one serially-injured has-been and some geezer no-one's ever heard of (both on loans). if we're going to be heavily dependent upon loans, that shows a total misunderstanding of what makes a football club, we all want to watch people play year-in, year-out, have favourites etc. Not watch some revolving door bring in temporary players every 6 months.

I'm worried about the influence of Kentaro, I'm worried about the criteria that was used to appoint Kean, and I worry how long Venky's will stay because they're not right for us.

[thenodrog]

I like good debate as much as the next person but the reason I posed this question was not to stifle debate but because I, and it seems others, are sick of hearing vague hints towards serious problems and issues deep within the club. However when questioned nothing more is forthcoming other than "trust us, we know more than you and it is bad" like those guys who walk around with sandwich boards saying the end is nigh. That isn't debate and I don't think it's what a messageboard is about either. And the second question I posed was if such paths do exist then is the negativity not feeding back into the club and creating a vicious circle? You will see I posed these as questions to stimulate debate and in no way to stifle it. If I wasn't interested in debate then I wouldn't have bothered.

And kelbo, I apologise about my post yesterday but after you'd asked about a dozen times it occurred to me you could actually write to either the club or the FA to find out about the managers badges. It clearly bothers you

Whats you feelings towards the Wikileaks situation RTH? Do you think every secret and every source of info etc should be brought out and exposed in the public domain whatever the associated cost?