[Archived] Entertainment or Result Is All That Matters?

[John]

Quite bitter McClarky, take it you didn't like him?

His negative tactics certainly did not lead to failure at Bolton or last season when we finished 10th, which was outstanding (it also resulted in a lot of credit generally for our club).

[AggyBlue]

It's almost as if people are glorying in the negativity of the BFS era. Rejoicing in the memory of a lucky win here and ther while choosing to ignore the glorious history of our club. Some must have cheered when we went to places like Chelsea and meekly rolled over without even trying to cross the half way line. You don't have to be cavalier to play good football, Mark Hughes's team were a testimony to that, but you can be sure that negative tactics almost always lead to failure in this game. I'm not saying that Kean is the answer but it certainly wasn't a long term plan to have that anti-football clown in charge.

Thanks for the sermon, now (Please don't use that word again) off

[Kelbo]

Why did Mowbray get sacked at WBA?

They did play good football

[DaveyB]

He didn't.

But let facts get in the way, eh?

[tony gale's mic]

It's almost as if people are glorying in the negativity of the BFS era. Rejoicing in the memory of a lucky win here and ther while choosing to ignore the glorious history of our club. Some must have cheered when we went to places like Chelsea and meekly rolled over without even trying to cross the half way line. You don't have to be cavalier to play good football, Mark Hughes's team were a testimony to that, but you can be sure that negative tactics almost always lead to failure in this game. I'm not saying that Kean is the answer but it certainly wasn't a long term plan to have that anti-football clown in charge.

You're a total buffoon.

[XLM]

He's right though.

Merely looking at the situation in retrospect is just that; a restrospective view. You forget the nitty gritty day to day. You have already lived through the past so you can look upon it lightly. Only the final result matters in the end. But the present and future you actually have live and should be looking forward to living. What would you rather be living through at the time?

[tony gale's mic]

He's right though.

Merely looking at the situation in retrospect is just that; a restrospective view. You forget the nitty gritty day to day. You have already lived through the past so you can look upon it lightly. Only the final result matters in the end. But the present and future you actually have live and should be looking forward to living. What would you rather be living through at the time?

At the time, I'd rather be living through games where we win and get results, rather than games where we play nice triangles and ultimately lose.

No side in the last ten years of Premier League football (before that the spread of money wasn't nearly so unequal so pointless comparing) has ever had long term success on a small budget and played nice football.

Under Hughes we were the closest but then whilst the first season or two we played some nice stuff, once Tugay's legs went the quality of football went downhill with it. There were plenty on here in his final season saying the same - personally I wasn't too bothered as 10th in the League was still an excellent achievement and consolidated our status as a top 10 club. Additionally we were bottom of the fair play league every single season under Hughes and got a bad reputation in the media because of it.

Aside from that you're looking at Bolton under Sam, Stoke under Pulis and Rovers under Sam.

Noone else. Literally noone else. Plenty of one season wonders who played nice football then got relegated the following season/later on that same season, but that's not what we want is it?

So when people decry Sam for playing unattractive football they're basically slagging him off for not doing what any manager has managed in the last ten years (and even if you think we really did play attractive football all the way through Hughes' reign it's still only one side in the last ten years) - and they're also slagging him off despite him achieving what only a very select group of managers of smaller clubs have achieved in the last ten years too.

That's what it comes down to.

[John]

Going back to the debate (which is going round and round in circles a bit)....

Personally, the respect and pride attained from finishing high up the league cannot be matched. Obviously you need to ensure you pick up enough results to finish high up the table.

If we play well then it is a bonus for me.

Going back to last season (for a recent example), the feeling of finishing 10th was brilliant – not only was it a fantastic achievement but we (as a club) were receiving plaudits from the general media and rival fans – always nice to earn gratitude/respect.

Other team’s did not enjoy playing us, as they were of the opinion that they could not pick up a result/points.

Whilst the style of football debate will continue to polarise opinion there is no doubt this would have changed slightly should Sam have had the opportunity of recruiting better quality players. Also, particularly in the 2nd half of last season, IMO we played some superb football and matched/beat some of the best club’s in the land.

[thenodrog]

Personally I loved it when we were the 'dogs of war' in the Prem. The team that other teams hated to be drawn against in the cup and were reluctant to play in the league. It's the only time in my life that BRFC have been perceived as 'right ard @#/?s'. Only my opinion but when you go out on a pitch with your head high and your shoulders back and catch your opposite numbers eye and he looks away first then the battle is half over. Intimidation is an age old part of the game.

Whilst the style of football debate will continue to polarise opinion there is no doubt this would have changed slightly should Sam have had the opportunity of recruiting better quality players. Also, particularly in the 2nd half of last season, IMO we played some superb football and matched/beat some of the best club’s in the land.

Exactly John. But Sam took the shackles off only when we were safe from relegation. Wise management and in line with orders from the board too I'd wager.

Those end of the season displays were conveniently and quickly forgotten by some of our members..... obviously didn't suit their damaging agenda.

[greco]

Personally I loved it when we were the 'dogs of war' in the Prem. The team that other teams hated to be drawn against in the cup and were reluctant to play in the league. It's the only time in my life that BRFC have been perceived as 'right ard @#/?s'. Only my opinion but when you go out on a pitch with your head high and your shoulders back and catch your opposite numbers eye and he looks away first then the battle is half over. Intimidation is an age old part of the game.

Exactly John. But Sam took the shackles off only when we were safe from relegation. Wise management and in line with orders from the board too I'd wager.

Those end of the season displays were conveniently and quickly forgotten by some of our members..... obviously didn't suit their damaging agenda.

your first paragraph, reminds of a situation, where a boxer cant outbox the other, he knows it, and everbody else knows, so what did he do.. well take a look ;-)

put our team out with such conviction, determination and a bit of ability, then i would be happy watching us all day everyday. Just like you, i loved the bully-boy tag we got. LOVED IT

[den]

Personally I loved it when we were the 'dogs of war' in the Prem. The team that other teams hated to be drawn against in the cup and were reluctant to play in the league. It's the only time in my life that BRFC have been perceived as 'right ard @#/?s'. Only my opinion but when you go out on a pitch with your head high and your shoulders back and catch your opposite numbers eye and he looks away first then the battle is half over. Intimidation is an age old part of the game.

I would swap our recent attempts to play "attractive football" for that kind of "they shall not pass" attitude any day of the week. Football is about winning - any way you can. Outwit/outfight/outrun/outpass the opposition, it doesn't matter, because we have to remember there's no right or wrong way to win a game. Losing is wrong.

I would be interested to know how many of the folk who wanted Allardyce out of here, would actually renew their ST's if the worst came to the worst and we were relegated because of the changes made this season.

[Mattyblue]

I would swap our recent attempts to play "attractive football" for that kind of "they shall not pass" attitude any day of the week. Football is about winning - any way you can. Outwit/outfight/outrun/outpass the opposition, it doesn't matter, because we have to remember there's no right or wrong way to win a game. Losing is wrong.

I would be interested to know how many of the folk who wanted Allardyce out of here, would actually renew their ST's if the worst came to the worst and we were relegated because of the changes made this season.

The old line 'I'd rather watch good football in the lower league than that crap Fat slug produced', aye I'm sure...

[John]

But Sam took the shackles off only when we were safe from relegation. Wise management and in line with orders from the board too I'd wager.

That's what some don't take into account too - throughout his time here, the mandate from the board was for us to stay up at all costs (Sam publicly stated that too).

[True Blue & White]

your first paragraph, reminds of a situation, where a boxer cant outbox the other, he knows it, and everbody else knows, so what did he do.. well take a look ;-)

What did he do? Got knocked out in round three....

Not a good example my friend unless you think we should come out all guns blazing every match and end up losing anyway.

[CrazyIvan]

What did he do? Got knocked out in round three....

Not a good example my friend unless you think we should come out all guns blazing every match and end up losing anyway.

Erm... Hearns was the boxer, Hagler was the brawler...

[MarkBRFC71]

I would be interested to know how many of the folk who wanted Allardyce out of here, would actually renew their ST's if the worst came to the worst and we were relegated because of the changes made this season.

I wanted him out, and I'd renew if we got relegated - in fact I was considering not renewing at the start of this season for the first time since the early 1980's because of the style of football under Sam's reign.

Been there in the lower divisions, seen it, done it. The Prem is not the be all and end all - despite what Sky would have people believe. So long as there's a Rovers to go to, I'm happy - whatever division we're in and provided we're not playing neanderthal football.

[Mattyblue]

I'd be there mark, but a good chunk of our fanbase would not pay the inevitable big hike in prices for lower league football.

A third full Ewood with a team of journeyman and a potential Sheffield club, Charlton et al demise does not lead to 'good football'

Try asking a Sheff Utd fan if they'd rather be in the PL playing 'prehistoric' Warnock football or be down with the deadmen like present.

wise up!

[greco]

What did he do? Got knocked out in round three....

Not a good example my friend unless you think we should come out all guns blazing every match and end up losing anyway.

boxing isnt really your area of expertise i see.

hearns was regarded as one of the finest pure boxers ever, one of those who technically was close to perfect, but for all his borderline perfect technique, finesse and ability, he couldnt cope with the bullyboy tactic, that hagler presented him.

We play teams who often are better then us technically, lets call them hearns, so what do we do, do we play nice on their/hearns playing field or de we rough the sh.it out of them and get a result..? you know, hagler style.

my example is more then fine, its your reading comprehension, that needs a bit of work mate or it might be, that you should brush up. on one of the finest sports in the world. ;-)

[den]

I wanted him out, and I'd renew if we got relegated - in fact I was considering not renewing at the start of this season for the first time since the early 1980's because of the style of football under Sam's reign.

Yeah, I believe you Mark, but there's thousands of fans who wont renew if we go down. If we were to go down and continue losing, we would continue losing fans, no matter what kind of football we played. If we went down and started winning, the gates would rise again. That's a bit simplified, but it is what happens. In reply to someone earlier who posted that entertaining football puts bums on seats - that's simply not true. Winning football puts bums on seats.

[davulsukur]

Personally I loved it when we were the 'dogs of war' in the Prem. The team that other teams hated to be drawn against in the cup and were reluctant to play in the league. It's the only time in my life that BRFC have been perceived as 'right ard @#/?s'. Only my opinion but when you go out on a pitch with your head high and your shoulders back and catch your opposite numbers eye and he looks away first then the battle is half over. Intimidation is an age old part of the game.

So you loved our style under Hughes, same here. I dont really think we were known as "Ard @#/?s" under Sam, if thats what you mean. We were organised, not ard.

Exactly John. But Sam took the shackles off only when we were safe from relegation. Wise management and in line with orders from the board too I'd wager.

Those end of the season displays were conveniently and quickly forgotten by some of our members..... obviously didn't suit their damaging agenda.

And not fitting into your agenda is the inexcusable away performances against decent opposition.

Sam was not a bad manager, even though his style is not to everyones tastes. The stubborn bloke that he is would never change his ways, and yes i agree performances at the back end of last season were improving, but there was no building on this good work and while I agree that the board will have had a word in his shell and said, safety first, it was dissapointing to revert back to the safety football.

Also Sams method of targetting games was totally uncalled for, he did have a good nack of winning games he hadto, but fans who turned up to away games were shown nothing but a middle finger by Allardyce. The "cant win, play for a draw" mentality he employed not only rips off the fans, but does the players a diservice as well.

Despite all this i still think that Allardyce is a good manager, but i still think people on here are massively over praising him.

If he changed his ways, he could still be in a job right now.

[Kelbo]

Interestingly, was speaking to a mate who is a Leeds fan yesterday, paid £35 for a ticket last week!!!

Yeah, I believe you Mark, but there's thousands of fans who wont renew if we go down. If we were to go down and continue losing, we would continue losing fans, no matter what kind of football we played. If we went down and started winning, the gates would rise again. That's a bit simplified, but it is what happens. In reply to someone earlier who posted that entertaining football puts bums on seats - that's simply not true. Winning football puts bums on seats.

Exactly, you wont go every week if you are losing, doesnt matter how you play, likewise, the better players wont hang around in a losing team, be it proffessional, semi pro or amatuer.

[spencey7]

I think it ultimately comes down to how people choose to derive entertainment from football matches, and from the wider field of spectator sports as a whole.

Some people advocate putting "battling" above all else; being tough to beat and slightly less "subtle" going forward (these are the Allardyce/"dogs of war" fans). Others would prefer to see our players use their skill, technique and guile to take on opposing teams. There seems to be a perception that it is impossible to adopt the mindset of the former while playing the style of the latter - and that is simply not true.

Some fans prefer to watch football in an angry frame of mind, grimacing at opponents and swearing at rival fans with the kind of vitriol normally reserved for sex offenders or fascists(*). Others prefer to watch the game with a smile on their face, hoping to see that bit of skill, turn of pace or strike at goal which will lift them out of their seat.

Simply pessimism vs optimism? Maybe.

In my opinion real football memories are created from teams playing football. Others disagree. I guess that's just how it is.

(*) NOTE: I am NOT referring to the usual light-hearted singing of mildly-offensive songs, mickey-taking etc - I'm referring to genuine anger at games, which you all know you've seen.

[tony gale's mic]

At the time, I'd rather be living through games where we win and get results, rather than games where we play nice triangles and ultimately lose.

No side in the last ten years of Premier League football (before that the spread of money wasn't nearly so unequal so pointless comparing) has ever had long term success on a small budget and played nice football.

Under Hughes we were the closest but then whilst the first season or two we played some nice stuff, once Tugay's legs went the quality of football went downhill with it. There were plenty on here in his final season saying the same - personally I wasn't too bothered as 10th in the League was still an excellent achievement and consolidated our status as a top 10 club. Additionally we were bottom of the fair play league every single season under Hughes and got a bad reputation in the media because of it.

Aside from that you're looking at Bolton under Sam, Stoke under Pulis and Rovers under Sam.

Noone else. Literally noone else. Plenty of one season wonders who played nice football then got relegated the following season/later on that same season, but that's not what we want is it?

So when people decry Sam for playing unattractive football they're basically slagging him off for not doing what any manager has managed in the last ten years (and even if you think we really did play attractive football all the way through Hughes' reign it's still only one side in the last ten years) - and they're also slagging him off despite him achieving what only a very select group of managers of smaller clubs have achieved in the last ten years too.

That's what it comes down to.

I still havent seen anyone try and contest this point, that they asking Sam to maintain a comfortable mid table finish whilst playing nice football was a ridiculous thing to ask - since it's almost never been done with the league in it's current form. Anyone care to reply?

[rebelmswar]

I still havent seen anyone try and contest this point, that they asking Sam to maintain a comfortable mid table finish whilst playing nice football was a ridiculous thing to ask - since it's almost never been done with the league in it's current form. Anyone care to reply?

I don't think the two are possible with the budget restraints that he was put under. Let's face it the team was plundered something horrid.

I think Moyes even had more to work with over the last few seasons. The only other team I can think of whom could be construed as in a similar boat. Look at what he is enduring now, pretty much the same as Sam last season with more flair players.

I don't believe it is honestly possible to do the two.

[Kelbo]

And much as I dont like the fella, Stan Ternants comments, 'you cant race a Ferrari with a Mini' indicates the thoughts within football, you cant compete on the same level playing open attacking entertaining football when some of the clubs are signing 15 to 20 top players at £20,000,000 plus which is basically the cost of our squad.

Indeed, Arsenal have outspent us over the last few years on Youth Players alone!

Yes, we can go down the route of signing and developing young players but as I have suggested previously, it will take a few years and would be surprised if Steve Kean was anywhere near Ewood by then, either sacked or a resounding success and with another club.

It has to be a club policy and one which retains its focus, despite who the manager is, in bringing through youth.

Its a great policy, it can work but will take time and we would have to have a much bigger and better coaching set up than we have now!!

Then comes the difficult bit of keeping those young players who will have come through the system.