[Archived] Entertainment or Result Is All That Matters?

[Exiled in Toronto]

1973/1974

English Division 3 (old) Sa 20Apr 1974 Blackburn 3 - 1 Rochdale

English Division 3 (old) Sa 08Dec 1973 Rochdale 1 - 2 Blackburn

Minus 15 votes for Theno! Was Spotland not the place where Tony Field scored his 100th league goal and Barry Endead (lol - Endean, or perhaps I was right first time) hit one over the bar with his knee from an inch out? Huge crush getting out of our end - I really thought I was going to die. But we won, so that was all that mattered...

[Andy]

This thread should really be topped by a poll........... one man one vote but with those who have been to watch BRFC at any three from the Shay, Field Mill, Gay Meadow and Burnden Park being given 20 votes apiece.

So being older qualifies you for a more important opinion?

I was only old enough to start going to games around '93/'94, but that doesn't make me:

a) a glory hunter

any less important/relevant in my views and opinions.

I understand your point but the era you were born in has no relevance to the validity of your opinion on Rovers.

[thenodrog]

Yes and it was a league game too!!

Vale Park was when we won 4 - 1 to win the league!!

Just found it.

1973/1974

English Division 3 (old) Sa 20Apr 1974 Blackburn 3 - 1 Rochdale

English Division 3 (old) Sa 08Dec 1973 Rochdale 1 - 2 Blackburn

Well done Kelbo. I've just googled that season and it turns out that Rochdale were relegated at the end of it after a lousy season which saw them win just 2 matches!

Well done too to EiT.

[92er]

Minus 15 votes for Theno! Was Spotland not the place where Tony Field scored his 100th league goal and Barry Endead (lol - Endean, or perhaps I was right first time) hit one over the bar with his knee from an inch out? Huge crush getting out of our end - I really thought I was going to die. But we won, so that was all that mattered...

Wasn't it the match when a goal was given, then disallowed because the ball had gone through the side netting?

[Exiled in Toronto]

Wasn't it the match when a goal was given, then disallowed because the ball had gone through the side netting?

I'd forgotten about that.

Here's a depressing though: Tony Field is now a pensioner!

[92er]

I'd forgotten about that.

Here's a depressing though: Tony Field is now a pensioner!

It provided entertainment!

And a result!!

[otto man]

No brainer for me. Entertainment AND a result. Though as we all know. "You can't win em all"

[rowz]

Wasn't it the match when a goal was given, then disallowed because the ball had gone through the side netting?

went to that game.Got to the ground-pay at the turnstile of course - and we see a sign saying North Stand £2.00 [or whatever the cost was in those days].Think, "that's a bargain,lets go flash in the posh seats" -we pay,go in to the North Stand ,and that's exactly what you did - STAND.

[LeChuck]

I think Hughes' head had been turned by the Newcastle link and that focus was lost.

I think he'd lost all motivation after that January transfer window. We desperately needed a quality central midfielder (Diarra was linked heavily at the time) yet he had to settle for Vogel on a free transfer after the window had shut.

That must have been such a huge kick in the teeth for him after all the success he'd had, particularly in terms of massively increasing the value of players he had bought. I think that made him lose all hope that he would ever receive financial backing.

[Amo]

I think he'd lost all motivation after that January transfer window. We desperately needed a quality central midfielder (Diarra was linked heavily at the time) yet he had to settle for Vogel on a free transfer after the window had shut.

That must have been such a huge kick in the teeth for him after all the success he'd had, particularly in terms of massively increasing the value of players he had bought. I think that made him lose all hope that he would ever receive financial backing.

With the right backing, Hughes would have got us into the Champions League. And if not, then bloomin' close.

But shoulda, coulda, woulda. That's what happens when your owners have no ambition.

[JAL]

No goals from Rovers in the LAST TWO HOME games has provided very little entertainment for the Ewood Park faithful.

[T4E]

Today seems like a very apt day to have this debate.

Over the course of the last year or so my mindset on this has totally changed. Under the previous regime we were constantly kept grounded, reminded that Premier League survival was the main aim and mid-table was the absolute best we could hope for. In truth I didnt like it, but I could accept the logic. As a consequence I considered the result to be the be all and end all, regardless of how it came about. My mindset on that has totally changed, and not because we have new owners and the potential promise of riches.

Tonight the greatest club team I have personally witnessed will play probably the most entertaining team on these shores over the last few seasons. It seems like everywhere I've turned today, be it radio, on TV, in the office, people are talking about it. I can't wait. Arsenal havent won a trophy in 5 years, and have little chance of winning the Champions League in reality. However, would the hype for the game be as big if Barca were playing any of the other English CL teams? I personally doubt it.

All of that is before you even mention Barca. I have watched every Barca game this season, and there genuinely aren't enough superlatives to describe just how good there are. I was in Barcelona in January and went to the Camp Nou to watch the 4-1 home win against Malaga. I have been to hundreds of English football games, most involving Rovers, some not, but what I witnessed that night was utterly breath-taking. It could just have easily have been a different sport given how similar it was to what we've got used to seeing at Ewood (and generally in the Premier League). It hardly resembled football as we know it in this country in any way, shape or form. Most of the time over the last few seasons attending Rovers games has been something I've done out of a sense of duty more than out of expectation of being entertained. Barcelona are the best team I have ever seen play live by some considerable margin, and are only run close by the current Spain team in terms of overall quality if I include teams I've only seen on TV.

I expect most people would say a comparison between Rovers and Barca is pointless due to the resources currently at hand, but the issue goes much deeper than that. Their whole ethos towards football is completely different to ours in this country. Theirs is play well first, then win. We like to win at all costs. The irony is, in Spain they have employed the first mantra, and are now winning just about everything in sight. We're lagging well behind because we havent put in the leg work.

The major redeeming factor with Venkys/Kentaro/Kean et al, is the apparent desire to build a young foundation within the squad, and teach good football to those youngsters. Using this theory, success can be delivered without a ridiculous outlay. To emphasise this I have compared the transfer fee costs of the teams used by Barcelona, Man United, Chelsea and Man City, averaged out per head, during important games played this season (when presumably they all would have been as close to full strength as possible).

During Man United's game with Man City at the weekend, they used 13 players, costing an average of £10.6m per head. During the same game City used 13 players at an average cost of £15m per head. In Chelsea's recent game with Liverpool they used 14 players, costing an average of £15.6m. In Barca's El Clasico match at the Camp Nou against Real Madrid earlier this season they used 14 players, costing £5.8m per head. This includes David Villa at around £35m, and £11m on Gerard Pique who initially came through La Masia before leaving for Man United. 7 of the players were home-grown and trained by Barca to play the Barca way since they were young kids, including all 3 finalists for last years Ballon D'or. They are a team reaping the benefits of years of forward planning and a coaching ethos that they refuse to negotiate on, regardless of the on pitch results of the senior team. The closest thing to the Barca model in this country is Arsenal, who in their 3-1 win against Chelsea earlier this season used 14 players, averaging £4m per head.

I'm no fan of Arsene Wenger as a personality, but it says a lot about the mindset in this country that in recent times he has been coming under pressure for not having won a trophy in a few years. He is steadily building a strong club at Arsenal, free from debt and still competing at the top of the domestic and European game, with a brand new stadium to boot.

We are playing in a league where teams throw money around like confetti in order to gain success as quickly as possible. Its not working, we're not succeeding in Europe as much as we were, and the national team continues to toil. Its hard to do things differently when the big boys all do it that way, but its not impossible. It'd be great to see Rovers put more and more of an emphasis on style of play, allowing good results to come as a consequence. If it means going one step backward to ultimately take two forward, then so be it. As supporters we're supposed to be having fun and enjoying ourselves, not putting up with scraping results together just to get by.

I'd love to see the whole league change its outlook. We have to have the faith that good results will come if we put in the hard work at the front end. Smashing transfer record after transfer record in pursuit of a quick fix is counter-productive and does not work long term - just ask a Real Madrid fan.

[Mattyblue]

Lot of good points there T4E, however we need to go back to Den's 'what is good football'?

Barca produce and buy the VERY BEST technical players in world football, we have a hotch potch of journeymen, has beens, promising youngsters and some good pros.

Where will quickly changing our style lead us with a rookie manager? Good chance of relegation, more one dimesnional journeyman fill the side, crowds dwindle and we get further and further away from the football you crave.

I will be watching Barca tonight, probably open mouthed, does that mean I pine for it at Ewood? No, from Rovers I want winning football, to be in an elite European league and the kudos and pride that goes with it.

[Kelbo]

Lot of good points there T4E, however we need to go back to Den's 'what is good football'?

Barca produce and buy the VERY BEST technical players in world football, we have a hotch potch of journeymen, has beens, promising youngsters and some good pros.

Where will quickly changing our style lead us with a rookie manager? Good chance of relegation, more one dimesnional journeyman fill the side, crowds dwindle and we get further and further away from the football you crave.

I will be watching Barca tonight, probably open mouthed, does that mean I pine for it at Ewood? No, from Rovers I want winning football, to be in an elite European league and the kudos and pride that goes with it.

Barca have been working on this for a number of years, we could do it but would have to get in the top coaches and the change of manager must never change the policy, otherwise it will never work, however, in doing this we have got to remain a prem club, it took Arsenal almost 10 years to reach their level!!

[rowz]

Today seems like a very apt day to have this debate.

Over the course of the last year or so my mindset on this has totally changed. Under the previous regime we were constantly kept grounded, reminded that Premier League survival was the main aim and mid-table was the absolute best we could hope for. In truth I didnt like it, but I could accept the logic. As a consequence I considered the result to be the be all and end all, regardless of how it came about. My mindset on that has totally changed, and not because we have new owners and the potential promise of riches.

Tonight the greatest club team I have personally witnessed will play probably the most entertaining team on these shores over the last few seasons. It seems like everywhere I've turned today, be it radio, on TV, in the office, people are talking about it. I can't wait. Arsenal havent won a trophy in 5 years, and have little chance of winning the Champions League in reality. However, would the hype for the game be as big if Barca were playing any of the other English CL teams? I personally doubt it.

All of that is before you even mention Barca. I have watched every Barca game this season, and there genuinely aren't enough superlatives to describe just how good there are. I was in Barcelona in January and went to the Camp Nou to watch the 4-1 home win against Malaga. I have been to hundreds of English football games, most involving Rovers, some not, but what I witnessed that night was utterly breath-taking. It could just have easily have been a different sport given how similar it was to what we've got used to seeing at Ewood (and generally in the Premier League). It hardly resembled football as we know it in this country in any way, shape or form. Most of the time over the last few seasons attending Rovers games has been something I've done out of a sense of duty more than out of expectation of being entertained. Barcelona are the best team I have ever seen play live by some considerable margin, and are only run close by the current Spain team in terms of overall quality if I include teams I've only seen on TV.

I expect most people would say a comparison between Rovers and Barca is pointless due to the resources currently at hand, but the issue goes much deeper than that. Their whole ethos towards football is completely different to ours in this country. Theirs is play well first, then win. We like to win at all costs. The irony is, in Spain they have employed the first mantra, and are now winning just about everything in sight. We're lagging well behind because we havent put in the leg work.

The major redeeming factor with Venkys/Kentaro/Kean et al, is the apparent desire to build a young foundation within the squad, and teach good football to those youngsters. Using this theory, success can be delivered without a ridiculous outlay. To emphasise this I have compared the transfer fee costs of the teams used by Barcelona, Man United, Chelsea and Man City, averaged out per head, during important games played this season (when presumably they all would have been as close to full strength as possible).

During Man United's game with Man City at the weekend, they used 13 players, costing an average of £10.6m per head. During the same game City used 13 players at an average cost of £15m per head. In Chelsea's recent game with Liverpool they used 14 players, costing an average of £15.6m. In Barca's El Clasico match at the Camp Nou against Real Madrid earlier this season they used 14 players, costing £5.8m per head. This includes David Villa at around £35m, and £11m on Gerard Pique who initially came through La Masia before leaving for Man United. 7 of the players were home-grown and trained by Barca to play the Barca way since they were young kids, including all 3 finalists for last years Ballon D'or. They are a team reaping the benefits of years of forward planning and a coaching ethos that they refuse to negotiate on, regardless of the on pitch results of the senior team. The closest thing to the Barca model in this country is Arsenal, who in their 3-1 win against Chelsea earlier this season used 14 players, averaging £4m per head.

I'm no fan of Arsene Wenger as a personality, but it says a lot about the mindset in this country that in recent times he has been coming under pressure for not having won a trophy in a few years. He is steadily building a strong club at Arsenal, free from debt and still competing at the top of the domestic and European game, with a brand new stadium to boot.

We are playing in a league where teams throw money around like confetti in order to gain success as quickly as possible. Its not working, we're not succeeding in Europe as much as we were, and the national team continues to toil. Its hard to do things differently when the big boys all do it that way, but its not impossible. It'd be great to see Rovers put more and more of an emphasis on style of play, allowing good results to come as a consequence. If it means going one step backward to ultimately take two forward, then so be it. As supporters we're supposed to be having fun and enjoying ourselves, not putting up with scraping results together just to get by.

I'd love to see the whole league change its outlook. We have to have the faith that good results will come if we put in the hard work at the front end. Smashing transfer record after transfer record in pursuit of a quick fix is counter-productive and does not work long term - just ask a Real Madrid fan.

Agree totally with everything concerning the Barca approach -the demolition of Real earlier this season was one of the finest displays of football I have ever seen - however, I think we place too much emphasis on the distinction betwen playing well and winning.I'm sure Barca go out to win every game -it's how you achieve that win , in terms of flair,style ,technique etc.The players at Barca are not only some of the most gifted ,but also the hardest working - also a feature of most of the recent sucessful Man U sides.For years the Spanish national side were the great under achievers-great individuals etc , but no trophies.Now they have this golden generation and they win for fun -but how many games at the world cup did they win 1-0 ?.They are fantastic footballers and great entertainers - but they know how to win.

[tony gale's mic]

I expect most people would say a comparison between Rovers and Barca is pointless due to the resources currently at hand, but the issue goes much deeper than that. Their whole ethos towards football is completely different to ours in this country. Theirs is play well first, then win. We like to win at all costs. The irony is, in Spain they have employed the first mantra, and are now winning just about everything in sight. We're lagging well behind because we havent put in the leg work.

There are many reasons why England are lagging behind, but not playing like Spain isn't one of them. Italy and Germany are two of the most successful sides in footballing history, and they are both very much win at all costs sides, only they do it very well.

We are playing in a league where teams throw money around like confetti in order to gain success as quickly as possible. Its not working, we're not succeeding in Europe as much as we were, and the national team continues to toil. Its hard to do things differently when the big boys all do it that way, but its not impossible. It'd be great to see Rovers put more and more of an emphasis on style of play, allowing good results to come as a consequence. If it means going one step backward to ultimately take two forward, then so be it. As supporters we're supposed to be having fun and enjoying ourselves, not putting up with scraping results together just to get by.

Yes, we are playing in a league where many teams throw money around like confetti. There's another group of teams who might not throw it around like confetti but still spend a considerable amount more than we have been spending - which is the relevant point here since the very reason why this topic came about was because of arguments re how we played under Sam. It's also relevant to the squad we currently have to work with.

The big boys don't all play a certain way - Arsenal, Spurs and on their day Man United play some very attractive football. Chelsea are more about strength and power and Man City are, for a side who've spent as much money as they have, remarkably defensive and unattractive to watch. Liverpool are in transition in terms of their playing style.

There have been many, many teams who have played attractive football on small budgets in this league. Burnley, Reading (in their first season), Hull played some very nice stuff early on, West Brom, Blackpool...but all of them (bar Blackpool who look like following this trend too) did well early on, all of gave the big teams more of a bloody nose than we've done of late...but all of them eventually faded and got relegated once teams exploited their weaknesses because they weren't built on solid foundations. Remember Ipswich town in 2000-01 under George Burley? They finished 5th, played some very nice football, George Burley got Manager of the year and were 3 points off a Champions' League spot. The next season they got relegated, and Burley's career went downhill - he got sacked by Crystal Palace last month.

There are, however, only three teams who have managed to consistently succeed in this league on a small budget. "Consistently" is defined by 2-3 seasons plus, and "succeed" for a small budget team is staying relatively clear of relegation danger in those seasons. Bolton under Big Sam, Rovers under Hughes and Sam and Stoke under Tony Pulis. All of those four managers were derided in the media for how they set their teams up - Hughes more for disciplinary reasons since we consistently finished bottom of the fair play league under him. But all those four achieved sustained success on a small budget in a way that no other managers have done in the last ten years.

There's a VERY clear trend here. Putting more emphasis on style of play and hoping you get the right results will get you some initial success, it will take teams by surprise to start off with. In that respect our excellent win vs Liverpool was entirely in keeping with what I've written above, but sadly so is a decline after that. Managers do their homework, study videos, and find ways to counter your attacking tactics (since usually the attacking players of these teams aren't that good) and find a way through a leaky defence.

And "taking one step backwards" isn't the trivial matter you consider it to be. Taking "one step backwards" is getting involved in a relegation battle, and once you go down those two steps forward will be very, very difficult indeed. Good football vs good results isn't necessarily a choice, but when you're on a small budget then as I've shown, in this league it's only one type of team who invariably succeeds.

[jim mk2]

. In that respect our excellent win vs Liverpool was entirely in keeping with what I've written above, but sadly so is a decline after that. Managers do their homework, study videos, and find ways to counter your attacking tactics (since usually the attacking players of these teams aren't that good) and find a way through a leaky defence.

.

I made this point earlier. Kean's tactics have been sussed out by opposition managers after only 10 games and it appears he does not have a plan B..... unless that was the mysterious formation he tried against Newcastle. Kean does not also have the luxury of a versatile squad with players who can adapt to different tactics and formations although Rochina and Formica might offer something different in the long term.

Kean's dilemma is that he was appointed by the owners to deliver a more attacking brand of football yet he does not have the tools or seemingly the know-how or experience to do it. He has also had to hit the ground running in this brave new world in the middle of the season while at the same getting the results that ensure Rovers do not get embroiled in a relegation battle. I would like to say I feel sorry for him - I don't because I don't believe he should be in the job in the first place - but he has an almost impossible task.

[chris]

I made this point earlier. Kean's tactics have been sussed out by opposition managers after only 10 games and it appears he does not have a plan B..... unless that was the mysterious formation he tried against Newcastle. Kean does not also have the luxury of a versatile squad with players who can adapt to different tactics and formations although Rochina and Formica might offer something different in the long term.

Kean's dilemma is that he was appointed by the owners to deliver a more attacking brand of football yet he does not have the tools or seemingly the know-how or experience to do it. He has also had to hit the ground running in this brave new world in the middle of the season while at the same getting the results that ensure Rovers do not get embroiled in a relegation battle. I would like to say I feel sorry for him - I don't because I don't believe he should be in the job in the first place - but he has an almost impossible task.

Thats a very fair assessment I think, spot on.

It is a dilema and one that Venkys couldn't force apon a high profile manager.

[thenodrog]

Today seems like a very apt day to have this debate.

Over the course of the last year or so my mindset on this has totally changed. Under the previous regime we were constantly kept grounded, reminded that Premier League survival was the main aim and mid-table was the absolute best we could hope for. In truth I didnt like it, but I could accept the logic. As a consequence I considered the result to be the be all and end all, regardless of how it came about. My mindset on that has totally changed, and not because we have new owners and the potential promise of riches.

Tonight the greatest club team I have personally witnessed will play probably the most entertaining team on these shores over the last few seasons. It seems like everywhere I've turned today, be it radio, on TV, in the office, people are talking about it. I can't wait. Arsenal havent won a trophy in 5 years, and have little chance of winning the Champions League in reality. However, would the hype for the game be as big if Barca were playing any of the other English CL teams? I personally doubt it.

All of that is before you even mention Barca. I have watched every Barca game this season, and there genuinely aren't enough superlatives to describe just how good there are. I was in Barcelona in January and went to the Camp Nou to watch the 4-1 home win against Malaga. I have been to hundreds of English football games, most involving Rovers, some not, but what I witnessed that night was utterly breath-taking. It could just have easily have been a different sport given how similar it was to what we've got used to seeing at Ewood (and generally in the Premier League). It hardly resembled football as we know it in this country in any way, shape or form. Most of the time over the last few seasons attending Rovers games has been something I've done out of a sense of duty more than out of expectation of being entertained. Barcelona are the best team I have ever seen play live by some considerable margin, and are only run close by the current Spain team in terms of overall quality if I include teams I've only seen on TV.

I expect most people would say a comparison between Rovers and Barca is pointless due to the resources currently at hand, but the issue goes much deeper than that. Their whole ethos towards football is completely different to ours in this country. Theirs is play well first, then win. We like to win at all costs. The irony is, in Spain they have employed the first mantra, and are now winning just about everything in sight. We're lagging well behind because we havent put in the leg work.

The major redeeming factor with Venkys/Kentaro/Kean et al, is the apparent desire to build a young foundation within the squad, and teach good football to those youngsters. Using this theory, success can be delivered without a ridiculous outlay. To emphasise this I have compared the transfer fee costs of the teams used by Barcelona, Man United, Chelsea and Man City, averaged out per head, during important games played this season (when presumably they all would have been as close to full strength as possible).

During Man United's game with Man City at the weekend, they used 13 players, costing an average of £10.6m per head. During the same game City used 13 players at an average cost of £15m per head. In Chelsea's recent game with Liverpool they used 14 players, costing an average of £15.6m. In Barca's El Clasico match at the Camp Nou against Real Madrid earlier this season they used 14 players, costing £5.8m per head. This includes David Villa at around £35m, and £11m on Gerard Pique who initially came through La Masia before leaving for Man United. 7 of the players were home-grown and trained by Barca to play the Barca way since they were young kids, including all 3 finalists for last years Ballon D'or. They are a team reaping the benefits of years of forward planning and a coaching ethos that they refuse to negotiate on, regardless of the on pitch results of the senior team. The closest thing to the Barca model in this country is Arsenal, who in their 3-1 win against Chelsea earlier this season used 14 players, averaging £4m per head.

I'm no fan of Arsene Wenger as a personality, but it says a lot about the mindset in this country that in recent times he has been coming under pressure for not having won a trophy in a few years. He is steadily building a strong club at Arsenal, free from debt and still competing at the top of the domestic and European game, with a brand new stadium to boot.

We are playing in a league where teams throw money around like confetti in order to gain success as quickly as possible. Its not working, we're not succeeding in Europe as much as we were, and the national team continues to toil. Its hard to do things differently when the big boys all do it that way, but its not impossible. It'd be great to see Rovers put more and more of an emphasis on style of play, allowing good results to come as a consequence. If it means going one step backward to ultimately take two forward, then so be it. As supporters we're supposed to be having fun and enjoying ourselves, not putting up with scraping results together just to get by.

I'd love to see the whole league change its outlook. We have to have the faith that good results will come if we put in the hard work at the front end. Smashing transfer record after transfer record in pursuit of a quick fix is counter-productive and does not work long term - just ask a Real Madrid fan.

On the other hand T4E if there were 20 Barcelona's in the Prem 3 would still be relegated.

Oh btw Arsenals winning won!

[T4E]

Atleast dick turpin wore a mask.

[thenodrog]

Atleast dick turpin wore a mask.

Just goes to show as we've done most of the first half of the season that possession does not always translate into success.

btw.... The great Wimbledon side of the early 90's would have stuffed the pair of em.

[Kelbo]

I made this point earlier. Kean's tactics have been sussed out by opposition managers after only 10 games and it appears he does not have a plan B..... unless that was the mysterious formation he tried against Newcastle. Kean does not also have the luxury of a versatile squad with players who can adapt to different tactics and formations although Rochina and Formica might offer something different in the long term.

Kean's dilemma is that he was appointed by the owners to deliver a more attacking brand of football yet he does not have the tools or seemingly the know-how or experience to do it. He has also had to hit the ground running in this brave new world in the middle of the season while at the same getting the results that ensure Rovers do not get embroiled in a relegation battle. I would like to say I feel sorry for him - I don't because I don't believe he should be in the job in the first place - but he has an almost impossible task.

I do believe Jim that sums up my feelings too, he has an almost impossible task and as you say, should never have got the job in the first place.

One thing I did notice tonight in the Arsenal game was despite the movement and attacking emphasis by Barca, we always saw the wide players tracking back to help the defence and even Fabregas dropping into a fukll back position to cover on one occassion!!

Maybe Kean should take a quick note of those points and tell his players that whilst we should play positive attacking football, without the work ethic to track back and cover, it is all totally pointless, remember, all the players on view are head and shoulders above our players skill wise, so if they can work hard, so can we.

[RevidgeBlue]

Going back to the original question, results are obviously the over-riding priority, but good results and entertainment are NOT mutually exclusive as the Liverpool match demonstrated.

I've often said that hypothetically I'd take 38 dreadful 1-0 wins over the course of a season - do that and you'd be Champions by some margin.

In practice this would never happen, by and large if you play well you win and entertain, if you play badly you lose and don't entertain either.

[tonyoz]

The pleasure, at the end of the day was in beating Liverpool. No?

Yes indeed. But it's good to have a few "jump to the feet moments" too.

[tonyoz]

I really quite enjoyed us being the hard men of the PL, and if we're beginning to criticise the Hughes era after the fantastic job he did then it is a very sad state of affairs.

Oh I agree; having a defence that takes no prisoners is all part of the beautiful game. A bonecrunching tackle against one of the fancy boys is always a highlight. My OP was not meant to be a criticism of the Hughes era but a criticism of crap football. I remember that match particularly well because I had been looking forward to it so much. I was back in England for the first time in 3 years!