[Archived] Entertainment or Result Is All That Matters?

[thenodrog]

I do believe Jim that sums up my feelings too, he has an almost impossible task and as you say, should never have got the job in the first place.

One thing I did notice tonight in the Arsenal game was despite the movement and attacking emphasis by Barca, we always saw the wide players tracking back to help the defence and even Fabregas dropping into a fukll back position to cover on one occassion!!

Maybe Kean should take a quick note of those points and tell his players that whilst we should play positive attacking football, without the work ethic to track back and cover, it is all totally pointless, remember, all the players on view are head and shoulders above our players skill wise, so if they can work hard, so can we.

The old rule should still apply.... When a team is attacking they should have 11 attackers on the field and when they are defending they should have 11 defenders with all players striving to stay between the ball and their goals at all times. How hard is that to implement?

btw It might be unpalatable to many but imo if we tried to play like Barca or Arsenal with our financial limitations we'll just end up like Blackpool. So who sees them as a long term fixture in the Prem?

Lets look at the bottom clubs... Wolves are very poor but their fellow strugglers Wigan, WBA, WHU and Blackpool have all taken the moral high ground and made the noises that less knowledgeable football fans simply love to hear as all profess to play attractive open football. In the safe ground of mid table where Allardyce would have finished the season we have Stoke, Sunderland, Bolton, Everton. All safety first specialists whose tactic is to play good football BUT only once they have stopped their opponents from doing just that first. Grinding, grafting and even spoiling tactics.

Everybody can dream about playing like Brazil (btw where are Barnsley plying their trade these days? ) but with £50m and the club's future well being at stake each year the choice is so very simple.

[LeChuck]

I would like to say I feel sorry for him - I don't because I don't believe he should be in the job in the first place

I feel exactly the same way.

To be honest I think he lied his way into the job by saying

a] £5 million investment per season could see us challenging at the top end of the table, and

b] We can play attractive, open football in doing so

I don't think for a second Kean believes either of those things, but had he not said them he wouldn't be in the job. Good for his personal development, but potentially harmful to feed these unrealistic ideas Venky's have.

Having said that, I wish him all the best in succeeding because I'd love to think we could be a stable club playing the football Kean is trying to install. I'm very sceptical though.

[John]

I feel exactly the same way.

To be honest I think he lied his way into the job by saying

a] £5 million investment per season could see us challenging at the top end of the table, and

b] We can play attractive, open football in doing so

I don't think for a second Kean believes either of those things, but had he not said them he wouldn't be in the job. Good for his personal development, but potentially harmful to feed these unrealistic ideas Venky's have.

Having said that, I wish him all the best in succeeding because I'd love to think we could be a stable club playing the football Kean is trying to install. I'm very sceptical though.

By having his own adviser as the main adviser to Venky's I am sure that would have helped.

Whoops, wrong thread...

[m1st]

"For me the most important type of football you can play is winning football.

We will set about playing on the front foot and trying to entertain.

But the main thing is to come off at the final whistle with the three points safely in the bag. ”

Chris Samba's response to the original question, as recorded in today's "Lancashire Telegraph".

[onlyonejackwalker]

Hi to one and all, new member on here.

I have been a season ticket holder for over 30 years. I have seen us playing under the likes of Gordon Lee and Howard Kendall in the old Division Three and then under Bobby, Don, Kenny etc in the old Division Two. Plus all our PL years under different managers.

I know what it is like lower down and having experieinced that can say with confidence that there is only one place to play. The priority each season is to stay in the Premier League and therefore results are far more important to me than entertainment, or style of play. Our club would be decimated by relegation. We must remain in the PL.

We now have novice owners, with a novice manager, supported by a novice assistant and presumably a novice chairman to be announced. We are supposedly looking up not down, but whilst doing so, are now being dragged down with the teams lower down as points slip away.

We have recruited a manager totally unqualified for the position. We have accrued 11 points from the 30 available under SK. We have enjoyed a slice of good luck in the games in which we have gained points (West Ham - Newcastle - West Brom home and away) and in other matches been easily beaten. SK has enjoyed 6 home matches out of the 10 games played, 7 of which have been against teams lower than us in the table and two of which were against rock bottom clubs. We have failed to score in 5 of the matches including 3 at home. We have achieved 2 clean sheets in 10 matches.

The manager insists on chopping and changing players and formations. He insists on playing with 2 upfront. A diamond has been introduced. He is floundering and I am not suprised as being manager of any team in the PL requires expertise and experience. He has been promoted above his station.

However you wish to dress it up it has not been good under Kean. We are being conned that it is more entertaining. 5 games in which we dont score? Only 2 games in which the opposition dont score? 11 from 30?

Results everytime for me.

[John]

Hi to one and all, new member on here.

I have been a season ticket holder for over 30 years. I have seen us playing under the likes of Gordon Lee and Howard Kendall in the old Division Three and then under Bobby, Don, Kenny etc in the old Division Two. Plus all our PL years under different managers.

I know what it is like lower down and having experieinced that can say with confidence that there is only one place to play. The priority each season is to stay in the Premier League and therefore results are far more important to me than entertainment, or style of play. Our club would be decimated by relegation. We must remain in the PL.

We now have novice owners, with a novice manager, supported by a novice assistant and presumably a novice chairman to be announced. We are supposedly looking up not down, but whilst doing so, are now being dragged down with the teams lower down as points slip away.

We have recruited a manager totally unqualified for the position. We have accrued 11 points from the 30 available under SK. We have enjoyed a slice of good luck in the games in which we have gained points (West Ham - Newcastle - West Brom home and away) and in other matches been easily beaten. SK has enjoyed 6 home matches out of the 10 games played, 7 of which have been against teams lower than us in the table and two of which were against rock bottom clubs. We have failed to score in 5 of the matches including 3 at home. We have achieved 2 clean sheets in 10 matches.

The manager insists on chopping and changing players and formations. He insists on playing with 2 upfront. A diamond has been introduced. He is floundering and I am not suprised as being manager of any team in the PL requires expertise and experience. He has been promoted above his station.

However you wish to dress it up it has not been good under Kean. We are being conned that it is more entertaining. 5 games in which we dont score? Only 2 games in which the opposition dont score? 11 from 30?

Results everytime for me.

Cracking first post - whilst it is not fair to make a certain/overall judgement on Kean yet, there are some early warning signs...

[T4E]

On the other hand T4E if there were 20 Barcelona's in the Prem 3 would still be relegated.

.....and it would be the most entertaining season any of us have ever seen.

I guess my mindset has changed because football as a passion is no longer as important to me as it once was. Whereas previously I would have spent my money on following Rovers no matter the standard of performances or results, doing so now seems really foolish and I can't bring myself to commit to blind devotion. Maybe it's a symptom of getting older. I now want value for money from football in the same way I do from any other product that I consume. Sport is in the entertainment business, if it aint entertaining, whats the point?

[Mattyblue]

But it all depends on what you find 'entertaining', speaking for myself, friends and family, we are entertained by wins and the success of the club.

Ewood Park ain't the cinema, it ain't the Nou Camp with the white hankies primed to wave.

It is where you get behind your club and your forefathers club. Rovers are not a 'product' where you need 'value for money', if that is what you want, you are following the wrong club.

[T4E]

But it all depends on what you find 'entertaining', speaking for myself, friends and family, we are entertained by wins and the success of the club.

Ewood Park ain't the cinema, it ain't the Nou Camp with the white hankies primed to wave.

It is where you get behind your club and your forefathers club. Rovers are not a 'product' where you need 'value for money', if that is what you want, you are following the wrong club.

In most cases its not the club - I'm following the wrong sport.

[Kelbo]

In most cases its not the club - I'm following the wrong sport.

Just a point here, many of us at differing levels have played the game, how many, despite playing some good stuff, could sit in the drssing room after the game happy after a defeat? I never could, losing was never an option, I would go home and the girlfriend/wife and cat could tell and they left me alone, if the kids played Ludo with me and I was losing, the board went up in the air!

A professional footballer does not want to lose, losing makes most of them feel bad, despite the football they played, if this became a regular occurrance, then in goes a transfer request, we have seen it happen so many times, players become unsettled, edgy and the mood of the team/club changes - now with a run of victories, despite how well they may or may not have played and the mood is good, confidence and belief is high.

For me, whilst a balance between the two would be nice, I really dont think its possible with what we have at Rovers.

[den]

You're right Kelbo.

I said earlier in the thread that we are a professional football club, with the emphasis being in italics.

Professional sport is about winning. There's nothing for losers. Professional sportsmen set themselves up for one thing - winning.

In football, Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Barcelona only set themselves up to win. Coming second isn't enough, even for T4E's Barcelona. Wasn't the fascination with Johm McEnroe, in watching his absolute dedication to winning? Did he go out to entertain, or did he go out to win? Did the great West Indian cricket team go out to entertain, or win? Do the top F1 drivers go out for any other reason than to win? Do the All Blacks Rugby Union side go out to entertain - or win? Did Seb Coe do his training in oreder just to compete and enjoy himself - or did he train to win? Did Steven Radgrave go through hell in order to come second? The admiration for Lance Armstrong surely, wasn't just that he got back on his bike again, - but because he became a winner again, against all the odds.

Professional sportsmen don't go out to entertain, they go out to win whichever way they can. The attraction of professional sport, in my opinion, is in watching winners.

[Jimmy612]

Hi to one and all, new member on here.

I have been a season ticket holder for over 30 years. I have seen us playing under the likes of Gordon Lee and Howard Kendall in the old Division Three and then under Bobby, Don, Kenny etc in the old Division Two. Plus all our PL years under different managers.

I know what it is like lower down and having experieinced that can say with confidence that there is only one place to play. The priority each season is to stay in the Premier League and therefore results are far more important to me than entertainment, or style of play. Our club would be decimated by relegation. We must remain in the PL.

We now have novice owners, with a novice manager, supported by a novice assistant and presumably a novice chairman to be announced. We are supposedly looking up not down, but whilst doing so, are now being dragged down with the teams lower down as points slip away.

We have recruited a manager totally unqualified for the position. We have accrued 11 points from the 30 available under SK. We have enjoyed a slice of good luck in the games in which we have gained points (West Ham - Newcastle - West Brom home and away) and in other matches been easily beaten. SK has enjoyed 6 home matches out of the 10 games played, 7 of which have been against teams lower than us in the table and two of which were against rock bottom clubs. We have failed to score in 5 of the matches including 3 at home. We have achieved 2 clean sheets in 10 matches.

The manager insists on chopping and changing players and formations. He insists on playing with 2 upfront. A diamond has been introduced. He is floundering and I am not suprised as being manager of any team in the PL requires expertise and experience. He has been promoted above his station.

However you wish to dress it up it has not been good under Kean. We are being conned that it is more entertaining. 5 games in which we dont score? Only 2 games in which the opposition dont score? 11 from 30?

Results everytime for me.

Congratulations on a very good first post.

[onlyonejackwalker]

Congratulations on a very good first post.

Thanks Jimmy, but I guess it depends which view you take. Some good opinions on both sides of the discussion.

I think we can safely say we all love total football. I think we can also safely say we don't have the players required at this level to glibly roll teams with slide rule pass and move football.

I am all for positive thinking, but it has to be realistic and I am very suprised Kean believes we can dominate teams in this way.

Back to basics time for me. One upfront, 5 in midfield, try and keep some clean sheets and rely on what quality players we have to create chances and score some goals. Take pride in defending well as a team.

[Majiball]

You're right Kelbo.

I said earlier in the thread that we are a professional football club, with the emphasis being in italics.

Professional sport is about winning. There's nothing for losers. Professional sportsmen set themselves up for one thing - winning.

In football, Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Barcelona only set themselves up to win. Coming second isn't enough, even for T4E's Barcelona. Wasn't the fascination with Johm McEnroe, in watching his absolute dedication to winning? Did he go out to entertain, or did he go out to win? Did the great West Indian cricket team go out to entertain, or win? Do the top F1 drivers go out for any other reason than to win? Do the All Blacks Rugby Union side go out to entertain - or win? Did Seb Coe do his training in oreder just to compete and enjoy himself - or did he train to win? Did Steven Radgrave go through hell in order to come second? The admiration for Lance Armstrong surely, wasn't just that he got back on his bike again, - but because he became a winner again, against all the odds.

Professional sportsmen don't go out to entertain, they go out to win whichever way they can. The attraction of professional sport, in my opinion, is in watching winners.

Trouble is the rest of the world thinks sport is about taking part & enjoyment, lol.

Den you've hit the nail on the head, it's a sport and sport at elite level is all about one thing - winning.

[tony gale's mic]

Going back to the original question, results are obviously the over-riding priority, but good results and entertainment are NOT mutually exclusive as the Liverpool match demonstrated.

One match demonstrates nothing.

The last ten seasons of Premier League football are far more meaningful and they have time and time again shown that sides who try and play expansive football on small budgets in this league might succeed over half a season to a season doing so, but then ALWAYS fall flat very soon afterwards.

[K-Hod]

If we play good football fine, but a win is the main thing in any event. I'd love to see us score 30-yard screamers, and great finishes at the end of a sweeping passing move containing however many passes.

But I'm also a realist, and know that frankly, with our midfield- this just isn't something that will happen at any time soon.

I love BRFC regardless of anything else, and have done before the Venky's showed their faces, and will be here long after they go. Sure I'm not on my own with that either.

[47er]

One match demonstrates nothing.

The last ten seasons of Premier League football are far more meaningful and they have time and time again shown that sides who try and play expansive football on small budgets in this league might succeed over half a season to a season doing so, but then ALWAYS fall flat very soon afterwards.

Just to emphasise your point, earlier in the season people were pointing to Blackpool as the proof that a club without stars and money and with small gates could play entertaining and winning football. Proof, they said that we had it all wrong. You don't hear that anymore!

[Mattyblue]

Its the same palava every year, the Dingles were another case in point, came out with a 'refreshing' mentality, then reality bites!

Selective amnesia on this board.

[tony gale's mic]

Just to emphasise your point, earlier in the season people were pointing to Blackpool as the proof that a club without stars and money and with small gates could play entertaining and winning football. Proof, they said that we had it all wrong. You don't hear that anymore!

Oh, another side next season will prove everyone wrong for 6 months I'm sure.

[John]

Blackpool are like a breath of fresh air....

[otto man]

Just to emphasise your point, earlier in the season people were pointing to Blackpool as the proof that a club without stars and money and with small gates could play entertaining and winning football. Proof, they said that we had it all wrong. You don't hear that anymore!

And yet both you and TGM are conveniently ignoring the fact that teams with small budgets and limited squads are likely to struggle in this league regardless of the style of football played, be it total football or fat Sam hoofball....But hey let's not let facts get in the way of spin eh!

[jim mk2]

And yet both you and TGM are conveniently ignoring the fact that teams with small budgets and limited squads are likely to struggle in this league regardless of the style of football played, be it total football or fat Sam hoofball....But hey let's not let facts get in the way of spin eh!

Also ignoring Sam operated on one of the lowest if not the lowest budget in the PL during his time in charge yet managed to save us from certain relegation in his first season and too us to a creditable 50 points and 10th place last season. In the end it comes down to managerial expertise and experience and we had one of the best.

[47er]

And yet both you and TGM are conveniently ignoring the fact that teams with small budgets and limited squads are likely to struggle in this league regardless of the style of football played, be it total football or fat Sam hoofball....But hey let's not let facts get in the way of spin eh!

But we were not struggling! Even playing hoofball, a description which I contest. We had an experienced manager. That's the whole point! Got your "facts" wrong!

[otto man]

But we were not struggling! Even playing hoofball, a description which I contest. We had an experienced manager. That's the whole point! Got your "facts" wrong!

Woooosh! My point was that the arguments for "Hoofball" football being the ONLY valid method of ensuring premiership status are trite. I'll say it again. Teams with limited squads and budgets are likely struggle in this league, whatever their style of play. That's backed up by the table it's self. Look at the top five teams, how many of those have limited budgets or squads? Now do you understand the point I was making?

[otto man]

Also ignoring Sam operated on one of the lowest if not the lowest budget in the PL during his time in charge yet managed to save us from certain relegation in his first season and too us to a creditable 50 points and 10th place last season. In the end it comes down to managerial expertise and experience and we had one of the best.

All credit to the guy Jim. I wasn't trying to demean his achievments, just point out that there is more than "one way"