[Archived] Football training

[BRFCS Content]

Thanks Majiball and Paul some really good tips which I shall put into practice over the next few weeks.

[Majiball]

Kamy, it's clear to me Majiball knows far more than I do so I would pay close attention to what he is saying, though there are odd bits I don't agree with. Also consider my sport is cycling and my limited knowledge is specific to that activity.

With regards to the general diet you have posted, and I don't wish to sound critical, you should change it full stop. For my money there is too much cr@p in there! Sorry. I would change breakfast to cereal or eggs depending on how you feel on the day - as I said my preference is for eggs. Lunch looks like a disaster so change that to salads, home made sandwiches etc - while my eggs boil I knock up a quick salad most days. Evening meal should be home-prepared as far as possible. I feel this is just sound dietary advice. Don't get me wrong I'm quite capable of eating a load of junk as well but do try to avoid it!

I'm interested in what Majiball has to say about fluid intake. As a cyclist this is essential, IMV, as 70-80 or more miles on a bike requires constant fluid intake and nutrition. My fluids are alternated between water and salts-enriched water from a sports powder - every 15 minutes I take a drink, first one water, then 15 minutes later salts etc. If I don't do this I know I'll cramp up towards the end. Most cyclists also take in food on a regular basis, it varies individually. During 5-6 hours on the bike I do this:

Breakfast: two eggs

At setting off: banana

At +/- 90 minutes: flap jack

At lunch (about 3 hours in): beans on toast sometimes + poached egg

Last 2-3 hours - flap jack or banana

Cycling is quite a social sport and the cafe stop is a big part of the ride. If I don't do this I risk bonking, which is getting very shaky, weak and feeling generally awful.

Majiball do you have any observations on this?

Hi Paul,

Your right Kamy's diet is awful, lol.

Fluids there are really two main positions:

Sawka: drink 1-1.5 Ltr 1 hour or so before you start. he says you need to replace all that you lose through sweat so weighing before and after a session without fluid intake. If you lose 1Kg drink 1.5 Ltr to replace during your exercise.

Noakes: drink what you want before and during.

Majiball: I believe the best way is to do what sawka suggests before hand and what noakes says during. so drink the 1-1.5ltr beforer hand pee off the excess and then drink ab libatum during your cycling.

I always work this way and do not reccomend exceeding 200ml fluids every 15 minutes. Drinking what you sweat will screw with your macronutrient balance and people have died from hypernatreamia because balance is off-set.

If your looking to get fitter I do not reccomend Lucozade and the such for the reasons previously mentioned. If your racing or looking for perfromance then drink it. I personally don't use or reccomend salts as your diet provides plenty. But I would ask what you eat in the build-up IE day before you cycle as this is the key are you carb loading before hand to maximise you muscles glycogen stores? If you could let me know what you eat the day before that would be great and if you could add in times? please include bed time and the time you get up. What you've listed on the day will never come close to the energy that you need for the work you are doing so this would be helpful.

Torgeir - everything your eating before and during is high GI food, thats great afterwards but before your risk a rebound hypo (high insulin levels) and this is detrimental to performance, switch to low GI foods and you'll perform better.

At the end of the day I don't force things on my athletes if they try it and don't like it then that's fine as it's important that they are comfortable with what they are doing first and foremost.

On magnesium and muscle cramps:

Serum electrolytes in ironman triathletes with exercise-associated muscle cramping

Author(s): Sulzer NU, Schwellnus MP, Noakes TD

Source: MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN SPORTS AND EXERCISE Volume: 37 Issue: 7 Pages: 1081-1085 Published: JUL 2005

Times Cited: 17 References: 17 Citation Map

Abstract: Purpose: To compare serum electrolyte concentrations of cramping and control Ironman triathletes. Methods: Triathletes suffering from acute exercise-associated muscle cramping (EAMC) after the 2000 South African Ironman Triathlon formed the cramping group (CR, N = 11). Noncramping triathletes matched for race finishing time and body mass formed the control group (CON, N = 9). All subjects were weighed at race start and immediately postrace. Blood samples were drawn from both groups during recovery for the analysis of serum magnesium, glucose, sodium, potassium and chloride concentrations. Hemoglobin concentration and hematocrit were also measured. Surface electromyography (EMG) (mV) was recorded from a noncramping control muscle (triceps) and the most severely cramping lower limb muscle of the CR group. EMG was recorded at the beginning of every minute for a 10-min period during recovery. Results: There were no significant differences between the groups for body mass or percent body mass loss during the race. Postrace sodium concentration was significantly lower (P = 0.01) in the CR group than the CON group (140 +/- 2 vs 143 +/- 3 mmol center dot L-1) but was within the normal clinical range of postrace serum sodium concentrations. There were no significant differences between the two groups for postrace serum electrolytes, glucose, hemoglobin concentrations or hematocrit. Surface EMG (mV) was significantly higher (P < 0.05) in the cramping muscles than the control muscle of the CR group at 0, 3, 4, and 5 min of the 10-min recording period. Conclusion: Acute EAMC in ironman triathletes is not associated with a greater percent body mass loss or clinically significant differences in serum electrolyte concentrations. The increased EMG activity of cramping muscles may reflect increased neuromuscular activity.

[Paul]

Fluids there are really two main positions:

Sawka: drink 1-1.5 Ltr 1 hour or so before you start. he says you need to replace all that you lose through sweat so weighing before and after a session without fluid intake. If you lose 1Kg drink 1.5 Ltr to replace during your exercise.

Noakes: drink what you want before and during.

Majiball: I believe the best way is to do what sawka suggests before hand and what noakes says during. so drink the 1-1.5ltr beforer hand pee off the excess and then drink ab libatum during your cycling.

I always work this way and do not reccomend exceeding 200ml fluids every 15 minutes. Drinking what you sweat will screw with your macronutrient balance and people have died from hypernatreamia because balance is off-set.

If your looking to get fitter I do not reccomend Lucozade and the such for the reasons previously mentioned. If your racing or looking for perfromance then drink it. I personally don't use or reccomend salts as your diet provides plenty. But I would ask what you eat in the build-up IE day before you cycle as this is the key are you carb loading before hand to maximise you muscles glycogen stores? If you could let me know what you eat the day before that would be great and if you could add in times? please include bed time and the time you get up. What you've listed on the day will never come close to the energy that you need for the work you are doing so this would be helpful.

At this time of year a typical ride would be 75-85 miles, averaging 15mph. Leave at 9.00am and return about 3.30/4.00pm. About 5.5-6.0 hours in the saddle, the rest in a cafe!

This is very interesting. On the fluids thing. I carry two one litre bottles, one plain water with a tiny drop of cordial just to add a hint of taste the other has what I have been refering to as "salts" but is a specific formulation for use during exercise. I can't recall the brand right now. When I speak of a drink we are talking 1 or 2 good swigs. Typically in winter this would be sufficient for the day plus a cup of tea at lunch. In summer the fluid would alter to either 2 plain and one salts or 3 plain and one salts. Depends on how hot it is. if I drank 1.5 litres before setting off I'd be peeing all morning!

Sometimes I eat specifically the night before, others I don't. If I do eat the night before it will be pasta, as I'm making a deliberate decision, usually with a meat sauce. If I don't make a definite choice it will be pretty much any choice from a home-cooked meal based around fish, chiken, meat and vegetables, the other meals during the previous day would be boiled eggs/cereal at breakfast and Saturday is bacon sarnies for lunch! I always ride on a Sunday. I'd usually eat around 7.00pm, bed about 10.00/10.30 (I'd be asleep five minutes later) and then typically get up at 6.00am, breakfast around 7.30am. Occassionally I'll get in trouble on this regime and the moment I feel it will stop and take an emergency sports gel.

On this if I don't eat pasta I'm ravenous when I get home and get big sugar cravings. If I know beforehand I'm doing anything over 80 miles, say 100, I always have pasta the night before. It would be good to understand how to stop the sugar craving and avoid being starving afterwards

BTW if I cramp it will always be in the thighs. Left thigh first followed by right. Getting off for a three minute stretch routine usually solves it.

[Torgeir]

Torgeir - everything your eating before and during is high GI food, thats great afterwards but before your risk a rebound hypo (high insulin levels) and this is detrimental to performance, switch to low GI foods and you'll perform better.

Why do they make bars etc. then? If I burn energy then surely I need to refill as I go? I'm talking about long lasting trainings/competitions here. I don't eat or drink anything other than water during 90 mins of football, and perhaps a banana at half time.

[Majiball]

At this time of year a typical ride would be 75-85 miles, averaging 15mph. Leave at 9.00am and return about 3.30/4.00pm. About 5.5-6.0 hours in the saddle, the rest in a cafe!

This is very interesting. On the fluids thing. I carry two one litre bottles, one plain water with a tiny drop of cordial just to add a hint of taste the other has what I have been refering to as "salts" but is a specific formulation for use during exercise. I can't recall the brand right now. When I speak of a drink we are talking 1 or 2 good swigs. Typically in winter this would be sufficient for the day plus a cup of tea at lunch. In summer the fluid would alter to either 2 plain and one salts or 3 plain and one salts. Depends on how hot it is. if I drank 1.5 litres before setting off I'd be peeing all morning!

Sometimes I eat specifically the night before, others I don't. If I do eat the night before it will be pasta, as I'm making a deliberate decision, usually with a meat sauce. If I don't make a definite choice it will be pretty much any choice from a home-cooked meal based around fish, chiken, meat and vegetables, the other meals during the previous day would be boiled eggs/cereal at breakfast and Saturday is bacon sarnies for lunch! I always ride on a Sunday. I'd usually eat around 7.00pm, bed about 10.00/10.30 (I'd be asleep five minutes later) and then typically get up at 6.00am, breakfast around 7.30am. Occassionally I'll get in trouble on this regime and the moment I feel it will stop and take an emergency sports gel.

On this if I don't eat pasta I'm ravenous when I get home and get big sugar cravings. If I know beforehand I'm doing anything over 80 miles, say 100, I always have pasta the night before. It would be good to understand how to stop the sugar craving and avoid being starving afterwards

BTW if I cramp it will always be in the thighs. Left thigh first followed by right. Getting off for a three minute stretch routine usually solves it.

OK, thanks for the info Paul that helps.

So your not going all out but your not hanging around either and 80 odd miles is a fair distance as well. OK your body will need a serious amount of energy for that. Now I can’t do anything exact without a complete dietary analysis but try this. The day before I want you eat 6gms of good carbohydrates (not sugary crap) per kilogram of your own body weight and finish your main meal at least 4-5 hours before you sleep. Have a supper by all means but get that main meal eaten earlier. Now to reach this 6gms you may need to drink a carb shake or two the day before If this is an issue let me know. Have some rice cakes (low GI foods, google them) and the such just in case you get into trouble (lol) and as your snacks during.

Now in the morning the first thing your body really wants to do is replenish its liver glycogen as this is generally low as its used overnight. So this is where your breakfast carbs are going and eggs are hardly a good source of carbs. So have both go on, cereal and two eggs be a devil, lol. And eat your banana about 45 minutes before you go. Now on to the drinking before hand, try it (the 1-1.5Ltr) you won’t be peeing all morning if your up at 6:00am and off at 9:00am, but being fully hydrated is essential for the distances you are doing. Try it 2 hours before hand to be safe and the other thing is your urinary system to a high degree stops working during exercise. For your drink take one water and one with glucose in it. Personally I don’t use electrolytes but 2 Ltrs is OK for that sort of time IMO in an ambient temp. Now before lunch your drinking water only and after the glucose. This way the morning will be about fitness and afterwards about performance IE not cramping. I would also at this point ask what you do when you finish the morning session and what you do before you set off Ie warm-up stretches or sweet FA?

I believe the reason you are so ravenous when you get home is drum roll,

You’re in energy deficit and you need to up the intake in preparation. I’m not surprised your thighs go as these are pretty much the only muscles you cyclists use (I assume you mean your quads??)

Oh and just to say can you PM me your your address, I charge £100.00 pounds an hour for a one on one nutritional consultation and I need to know where to send your invoice. Sorry mate what can I say there's a recession on!

Thanks in advance.

Why do they make bars etc. then? If I burn energy then surely I need to refill as I go? I'm talking about long lasting trainings/competitions here. I don't eat or drink anything other than water during 90 mins of football, and perhaps a banana at half time.

You have to understand that the fast majority of supplements do not do what they say on the tin. A lot of the papers that get published in support of these items are so flawed it's unreal.

For example take Unamed carbohydrate drinks, with Unamed carbohydrate drinks you can train harder and for longer. So why pray tell do football teams for example not allow their players to consume carbohydrate drinks during training? Because it doesn't help, building fitness is all about breaking down muscle, depleting energy stores and then re-building it all up again to a higher level. these drinks hinder that from happening and so yes you can run for longer but you don't get as fit as you could without it. They are for when performance is required IE during competition they hinder the training adaptation not help it.

Ok if you eat say a load of sugur IE sweets/gels before hand your blood glucose levels will rise very quickly. This rise in blood glucose leads to increased amounts of insulin being released into your blood stream as when this happens your body wants to store it all away. So your running your muscles want loads of energy and you've activated another pathway that also wants that energy (glucose) which means there's less for everyone and your muscles don't get as much as they could so you perform at less than optimal. You can eat other carbs that aren't sugar based which will not cause insulin release and yet will still provide all the energy the body needs to exercise. Eat plenty of the sugary crap when you finish as its best for restoring your depleted energy stores.

[Majiball]

If people on here are truly interested in supplements and sports Louise Burke has produced a great series on them covering practically everything and everything and explains whether they work, if so how, if not why and any side effects that they can have or performance benefits.

Currently there are 16 parts about 2-3 pages each and plain enough english is used and its explained basically. I'm quite happy to Email these to people should they want.

[incy wincy little spider]

Thanks for the help. I will be drinking more and taking some magnesium tablets before the game tomorrow.

My problem started years ago - I even went to the rovers academy to get their views on it. They gave me some exercises to do but I'm still left with some scar tissue on my calf.

[Tris]

If people on here are truly interested in supplements and sports Louise Burke has produced a great series on them covering practically everything and everything and explains whether they work, if so how, if not why and any side effects that they can have or performance benefits.

Currently there are 16 parts about 2-3 pages each and plain enough english is used and its explained basically. I'm quite happy to Email these to people should they want.

Maj - I'd love to read all that but I don't have time.

I play 5-a-side every Saturday morning at 11am.

Please could you advise the ideal wine for Friday night.

Cheers.

[incy wincy little spider]

Maj - I'd love to read all that but I don't have time.

I play 5-a-side every Saturday morning at 11am.

Please could you advise the ideal wine for Friday night.

Cheers.

Haha also when i drink beer (even just the one!) the night before a game I usually get cramp in my legs the next day during a game. I'm assuming this is linked to having less water in my body. Although it is 1 and not 5

[Majiball]

Maj - I'd love to read all that but I don't have time.

I play 5-a-side every Saturday morning at 11am.

Please could you advise the ideal wine for Friday night.

Cheers.

Well Tris personally I'd be going for a nice red as they contain more carbs than white wine.

So since we're all Rovers here is my recommendation: My link

Enjoy

[Paul]

Majiball this is all very interesting. I'm not riding this week as family has to take priority this Sunday. I will definetely try your suggestions next weekend and see how it goes.

Thank you

Paul

[davulsukur]

I've been out of football for quite some time, at least 3 years.

I would like to get back, but before I would get tired quite easily during training. Heavy breathing, heavy and wobbly legs etc during longish runs. Most of the training, involves running so I'm always behind everybody who are fitter than me. I've always been part of the 1st teams, or at the very least the 2nd team. We normally have training 3 times a week, for around a couple of hours. 2 days for just running, and 1 day ball work.

Is there a way to get me running longer, while stil maintaining that fitness level, without getting tired.

Ta

Isgak

I dont know if your still after advice or not but anyway.

If you've been out of the game for 3 years its going to take some time to get back into it. I would probably start by gaining some general fitness first and build that up, if you haven't been running for a while. Also if you dont already, i would try and join a 5 or 6 a side team to get a ball back at your feet, building up your short passing, shooting and control and also getting some competetive football in.

Once you are starting to get some general fitness back, step it up. Football is a series of sprints, you need to be able to change direction quickly. Get some sprint drills together such as shuttle runs, make sure you allow for rests in between drills and put maximum effort into your training.

Take a look here: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/football.htm which has various documents/reports regarding football fitness training.

[Iceman]

Cheers Davulsukur, still doing some light training at the moment. Will take in that bit of advice as well, thanks.

Majiball, I'm still awaiting your email, on the things that I asked about

Ta

Isgak

[Majiball]

Cheers Davulsukur, still doing some light training at the moment. Will take in that bit of advice as well, thanks.

Majiball, I'm still awaiting your email, on the things that I asked about

Ta

Isgak

Could you possibly tell me what the limit is on your Email????

[Iceman]

Think I only have a 3mb limit per email. I think it gets parked, and then released after a certain time.

[Paul]

OK, thanks for the info Paul that helps.

So your not going all out but your not hanging around either and 80 odd miles is a fair distance as well. OK your body will need a serious amount of energy for that. Now I can’t do anything exact without a complete dietary analysis but try this. The day before I want you eat 6gms of good carbohydrates (not sugary crap) per kilogram of your own body weight and finish your main meal at least 4-5 hours before you sleep. Have a supper by all means but get that main meal eaten earlier. Now to reach this 6gms you may need to drink a carb shake or two the day before If this is an issue let me know. Have some rice cakes (low GI foods, google them) and the such just in case you get into trouble (lol) and as your snacks during.

Now in the morning the first thing your body really wants to do is replenish its liver glycogen as this is generally low as its used overnight. So this is where your breakfast carbs are going and eggs are hardly a good source of carbs. So have both go on, cereal and two eggs be a devil, lol. And eat your banana about 45 minutes before you go. Now on to the drinking before hand, try it (the 1-1.5Ltr) you won’t be peeing all morning if your up at 6:00am and off at 9:00am, but being fully hydrated is essential for the distances you are doing. Try it 2 hours before hand to be safe and the other thing is your urinary system to a high degree stops working during exercise. For your drink take one water and one with glucose in it. Personally I don’t use electrolytes but 2 Ltrs is OK for that sort of time IMO in an ambient temp. Now before lunch your drinking water only and after the glucose. This way the morning will be about fitness and afterwards about performance IE not cramping. I would also at this point ask what you do when you finish the morning session and what you do before you set off Ie warm-up stretches or sweet FA?

I believe the reason you are so ravenous when you get home is drum roll,

You’re in energy deficit and you need to up the intake in preparation. I’m not surprised your thighs go as these are pretty much the only muscles you cyclists use (I assume you mean your quads??)

Majiball - thank you. I followed most of this over the weekend - have to confess I didn't do the pre-ride drinking as I was a bit nervous about needing to pee all day and forgot to do the in-ride water in the morning, salts after lunch!!! However we did 74 miles, at no point was I hungry and when I got home I just had a cup of tea and a biscuit before going in the garden for 3-4 hours work. Had my evening meal at the usual time but only wanted a "normal" amount rather than being very hungry. I'll try to do the fluids correctly next week.

Brilliant advice, thank you very much.

[Majiball]

Think I only have a 3mb limit per email. I think it gets parked, and then released after a certain time.

Hopefully you have them all now.

Majiball - thank you. I followed most of this over the weekend - have to confess I didn't do the pre-ride drinking as I was a bit nervous about needing to pee all day and forgot to do the in-ride water in the morning, salts after lunch!!! However we did 74 miles, at no point was I hungry and when I got home I just had a cup of tea and a biscuit before going in the garden for 3-4 hours work. Had my evening meal at the usual time but only wanted a "normal" amount rather than being very hungry. I'll try to do the fluids correctly next week.

Brilliant advice, thank you very much.

Glad it all worked out. If you ever need or want any more, drop me a PM.