[Archived] Steve Kean

[47er]

Based on fact or myth? Likely the latter.

Add to his list of credentials bringing through Cattermole, A Johnson, Downing, Wheater. Also didnt he field a full 11 which was born within 30miles of the stadium? Impressive no?

And lets not forget after his spell as england manager (which i think he will admit he wasn't ready for) he moves to the 4/5th best side in Holland and goes an wins the league.

He goes to Wolfsburg and has to manage with one hand behind his back while players are brought and sold beneath him.

So thats SM with a better win % and better trophy cabinet then SA. But SA is easily the better manager...

Why is anyone comparing his record to Sam's? How is that relevant. Its comparisons to Kean that matter and he is clearly a better option, as is just about everyone else! Even Ince!!

Tend to agree with you,and 2 losses out of 7 isn't too shabby-granted,a few more wins would have been nice too!!

Once again-----7 points out of 7 games is nailed-on relegation form! It gives you 38 points at the end of the season! Its not shabby--its disastrous.

[Steve Moss]

I've been very critical of Kean. And I will remain critical. Yes, he's had some good results (win against Liverpool, draw against Arsenal) but his points per game average remains below 1, despite having 19 games in charge which is plenty of time for one to prove himself. That is not acceptable in a PL manager. That is relegation form. We deserve better than a relegation form manager.

Steve Kean has been treated more than fairly by the owners. Absent winning the next two, he should go.

[rover2000]

Once again-----7 points out of 7 games is nailed-on relegation form! It gives you 38 points at the end of the season! Its not shabby--its disastrous.

His constant "positive" spin is just so infuriating. It is not 5 positive results from the last 7 games, it is only 7 points from the last 21 (the "positive" results being 3 draws against teams struggling at the bottom, a draw against an hopelessly out of form Arsenal and a narrow home win against an injury ravaged Bolton).

I'm surprised he is not telling us that we are averaging 2 points a game over the last two games, and form like that over the season would currently put us in second place (on 72 points after 36 games) ahead of Chelsea and just 4 points behind Manchester United.

[BangkokRover]

His constant "positive" spin is just so infuriating. It is not 5 positive results from the last 7 games, it is only 7 points from the last 21 (the "positive" results being 3 draws against teams struggling at the bottom, a draw against an hopelessly out of form Arsenal and a narrow home win against an injury ravaged Bolton).

I'm surprised he is not telling us that we are averaging 2 points a game over the last two games, and form like that over the season would currently put us in second place (on 72 points after 36 games) ahead of Chelsea and just 4 points behind Manchester United.

Difficult for anyone not to take the Arsenal result as a good result.

Come the end of the season we will see how good Kean is.

[Roverite28]

Sam's record with Bolton was far more impressive than McLaren's in charge of Boro. Funny how you don't mention that now isn't it!

It was SM first job in management. If we are going to be arsey and use most relevent stats, if you take each of the managers last full season in charge, SM has a win % at Twente at around 60%.

I bet you give McLaren the credit for bringing through those young players but don't give Sam credit for bringing through the young players at Rovers, right?

What sort of argument is that? To be fair SA brough Jones on leaps and bounds, not sure he was that good for Olsson and never really found a position for Junior in his system.

And Twente weren't the fourth of fifth best side in the Netherlands before he arrived. They were the second best side before he arrived as they'd finished 2nd the season before. Without him they're top of the table again this year.

I must of missed them finishing around 4/5 for about 3 season before hand tho. If they are top of the table now, he must of done somthing right there.

The conditions under which he managed at Wolfsburg were the exact same conditions under which they'd finished 8th the season before, yet when he left they were one point from the relegation zone.

I dont know the ins and outs, just simply what ive read and when ive spoke to people. SM was never going to do well there because of the circumstances the manager had to manage by.

So basically, you've been making things up and deliberately excluding huge sections of Sam's career in order to prove some petty point against our last manager.

He did a good job in Holland and can be a decent enough manager, but overall he's not a patch on Sam Allardyce.

Im sure when each are looking back at their careers when they are old and in the nursing home, SM will have a bigger smile on his face. Thinking back at least he had a crack at the England managers job, won 2 trophies and had the balls to manage outside the north of England.

It wasnt a debate to slam SA either, simply that the stick SM got was unjustified espicially considering he has a better record than the demi-god SA, hence him getting the england job and actulay winning somthing in his career.

[Gav]

Once again-----7 points out of 7 games is nailed-on relegation form! It gives you 38 points at the end of the season! Its not shabby--its disastrous.

So you're saying we're going down then 47er obviously, I'm willing to have a little wager thats not releagtion form, and we'll stay up

[Jimmy612]

So you're saying we're going down then 47er obviously, I'm willing to have a little wager thats not releagtion form, and we'll stay up

Poor argument. 47er is stating that over a full season that is relegation form. Thankfully we had a good platform having taken 21 points before Christmas.

What is it that you always say about playing fair Gav?

[47er]

Poor argument. 47er is stating that over a full season that is relegation form. Thankfully we had a good platform having taken 21 points before Christmas.

What is it that you always say about playing fair Gav?

I didn't see Gav's post because he's on ignore and his post provides yet another reason why!

Quite right Jimmy--my point was that 1 point per game over a season= relegation. Of course after 19 games Kean is scoring just below a point a game which is why we are where we are.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

It's still irrelevant.

Wigan have a very low wage bill but are seen at least to play a style of football that's pretty easy on the eye. Same with Blackpool.

If they were as successful as Sam's Bolton side then I'm sure they'd be topping the similar tables Sam did at Bolton.

If Fink published stats on pass completion rate/% of passes which were over 20 yards (for example) in proportion to points won or something similar (I'm sure he probably has done) then that'd back up any statements you might make about Sam's style of play.

It's true he did have a style of play that was more direct in its approach than most. Paradoxically however he also built a very good midfield at Bolton with numerous creative players who could never have shone in the way they did if all the media hype about Sam's style was justified.

However that's not proven by that particular statistic.

Though your statistics maybe don't relate directly to the style of play - there are references to the published Fink statistics that show that Sam's direct approach could be perceived as responsible for his success (I think the qoute is around successful short passes relating to goals scored in a match - which showed they made little difference).

You seem very defensive over Sam - personally I saw him as a pioneer with his approach to sports science and % play. His teams were never as unattractive as the media made out - but by the same token not always the easiest on the eye. Having said all that - I think the advantage that his approach (in terms of sports science) has diminished as other teams have adopted similar. He did a great job at Rovers - but I have my doubts whether he could have taken us forward or not - which we will now never know.

As for long term success playing passing football on a limited wage bill - not certain it is possible - as Blackpool and Wigans current position in the table possibly shows. A warning for our new owners possibly ?

[Parsonblue]

Tend to agree with you,and 2 losses out of 7 isn't too shabby-granted,a few more wins would have been nice too!!

Since the departure of Allardyce, in mid December, we have managed just three home wins. You're right, when compared to our home record last season it isn't too shabby - it's appalling. Over the course of a full season Kean's fortress Ewood would get you relegated pretty quickly. Although I have no doubt that the manager would find a positive spin to put on it!

[Mercer]

His constant "positive" spin is just so infuriating. It is not 5 positive results from the last 7 games, it is only 7 points from the last 21 (the "positive" results being 3 draws against teams struggling at the bottom, a draw against an hopelessly out of form Arsenal and a narrow home win against an injury ravaged Bolton).

I'm surprised he is not telling us that we are averaging 2 points a game over the last two games, and form like that over the season would currently put us in second place (on 72 points after 36 games) ahead of Chelsea and just 4 points behind Manchester United.

Quite true and this just adds to the reasons why he is so intensely disliked.

[greco]

i have a hard time seeing, how its possible to argue against TGM´s point of view, atleast with logical and sound reasoning.

this fink analysis, was it only compared to wages or was money on transfers included as well..?

[chris]

I didn't see Gav's post because he's on ignore and his post provides yet another reason why!

Quite right Jimmy--my point was that 1 point per game over a season= relegation. Of course after 19 games Kean is scoring just below a point a game which is why we are where we are.

It's like Steve Kean is the slowest runner in a maraton but because he had a 10 mile head start, he's running a great race (to quote Richard Keys) and making a strong finish.

[imy9]

i have a hard time seeing, how its possible to argue against TGM´s point of view, atleast with logical and sound reasoning.

this fink analysis, was it only compared to wages or was money on transfers included as well..?

"There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics."

http://www.sportspromedia.com/notes_and_insights/burnley_take_scientific_approach_to_find_perfect_manager/

We should hire him... logical, sound reasoning too- reality is slightly different though is it not?

[blue_and_white]

"There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics."

http://www.sportspromedia.com/notes_and_insights/burnley_take_scientific_approach_to_find_perfect_manager/

We should hire him... logical, sound reasoning too- reality is slightly different though is it not?

That must be one of the most over-rated quotes in human history. In its context all its implying is that extremely biased and selective statistics don't mean much. But statistics are still facts and if there's no obvious bias involved in their selection/presentation then an argument is a lot better supported using them than not. If you can't use facts and statistics to prove the opinion that Allardyce is a poor manager (which his detractors generally can't) then its just your opinion and nothing more.

Burnley's decision on choosing Laws wasn't totally daft and his record in the championship with them was fine (Howe only moved them up 1 place) but the key error was Burnley ignoring his total lack of experience in the Premier League. Now who does that remind me of?

[RoyRover]

Steve Kean has been treated more than fairly by the owners. Absent winning the next two, he should go.

When you consider how quickly they got rid of Sam after he lost a couple of games whenever they arrived, it's unbelievable that Kean has lasted the season out considering the run he went on. It goes to show who is really pulling the strings at the club.

His constant "positive" spin is just so infuriating. It is not 5 positive results from the last 7 games, it is only 7 points from the last 21 (the "positive" results being 3 draws against teams struggling at the bottom, a draw against an hopelessly out of form Arsenal and a narrow home win against an injury ravaged Bolton).

You've hit the nail on the head there. Apart from being a clueless manager, I've been trying to work out why I dislike the guy so much and you've just worked it out for me. The fact that he thinks that we've been playing well and being getting good results goes to show that he doesn't know what he's up to. And he's forever going on about how the whole team is behind him, which makes me think the complete opposite.

[RovertheHill]

The relegation form is one thing to quite rightly bring up, but having a go at Kean about being positive seems to me to be a bit rich. Of course he's going to be positive in public - he would be stupid not to, and it's rare to see a manager who isn't.

"Fans seem to think they are much bigger experts than ever before, so they portray their disapproval more vociferously. That’s the problem we face, not just in football but everyday life. You look at the negativity around football and it’s filled with it. It’s such a wonderful game, but you wonder why people bother watching it if they are only going to be negative."

[Gav]

Poor argument. 47er is stating that over a full season that is relegation form. Thankfully we had a good platform having taken 21 points before Christmas.

What is it that you always say about playing fair Gav?

I simply misunderstood his point Jimmy, nothing sinister I can assure you.

[Blue n White Rover]

Poor argument. 47er is stating that over a full season that is relegation form. Thankfully we had a good platform having taken 21 points before Christmas.

What is it that you always say about playing fair Gav?

Nonsense. Prior to yesterday, Fulham had won 6 of the last 7 games at home. Over the full season there record would be nearly as good as Man United! You can't predict what the form is like from the last 7 games and presume it would be the same for the rest of the season. It doesn't take into account injuries or suspensions.

Last 7 games we have been very very unlucky with decisions, and it may lead to our downfall.

Fulham Away - Never a penalty (+1 point)

Blackpool Home - Never a penalty (+2 points)

B'ham Home - Bowyer goal offside (+2 points)

That's 5 points off our tally due to dodgy referee's. We COULD have been on 44 points which would see us near the top half. You can't blame Kean for that.

[Mattyblue]

One win in 13 games is not a bad barometer though...

[roversmum]

Most people think they can ...

(I am not one of them)

[RibbleValleyRover]

Last 7 games we have been very very unlucky with decisions, and it may lead to our downfall.

Fulham Away - Never a penalty (+1 point)

Blackpool Home - Never a penalty (+2 points)

B'ham Home - Bowyer goal offside (+2 points)

That's 5 points off our tally due to dodgy referee's. We COULD have been on 44 points which would see us near the top half. You can't blame Kean for that.

Luck does even itself out, Rovers were lucky to get the win against Bolton when they hit the post, Rovers were lucky to get a point against West Ham when Keane missed a sitter.

[Blue n White Rover]

Luck does even itself out, Rovers were lucky to get the win against Bolton when they hit the post, Rovers were lucky to get a point against West Ham when Keane missed a sitter.

That is West Ham's and Bolton's fault for missing their chances. Ours was not the fault of a player but of the referee. Completely different.

[Gav]

One win in 13 games is not a bad barometer though...

Just so everyones clear I'm not saying sacking Allardyce and appointing Kean was justified

But we're staying up Matty in my opinion, so who really cares pal?

At the end of the season if we're still in the premiership, the appointment of Kean was justified and the owners got it right in not sacking him with 10 games to go.

Simple as that.

[47er]

One win in 13 games is not a bad barometer though...

or 18 points in 19 games--exactly half a season. That equates to 36 points over a full season and relegation. if we can't work him out on that basis what other basis is there?

After all we didn't say to Ince 'we know your record is bad but we hope you'll do better in the 2nd half of the season". We sacked him and 99% of us celebrated!

If the basis for judgement of a manager isn't points on the board---what is it?