[Archived] Steve Kean

[greco]

davulsukur

That Allardyce acheived a better finish with the team in a full season than what kean has in half?

so kean has the luxury of a hoilett on form and yet cant progress and now you use he only had half a season as an excuse. Quite weird, especially as he inherited a team, occupying a tophalf spot.

The point in question had nothing to do with Allarydyce taking the team to a better league position. The point was Junior was going no where under Allardyce.

going nowhere.. how do you come to that - totally irrational - conclusion.?

Ah i see, you only want to debate if its bashing sam and praising kean, otherwise its irrelevant.

its a perfectly valid point, does hoilets personel success, outweigh that of the team. My guess would be, that sam didnt use him more, as his decisions could be woeful and at times his roaming could be,at the expense of our team organisation.

with sam gaining 10th, i would be hard pressed questioning his judgemnent, if my guess regarding organisation and decisions are correct.

So Kean gets no credit as an individual for progressing Junior, but Sam does get credit as an individual as it benifits the team? Juniors progression helps the team as a whole, if he is playing well, he creates for others, as well as scoring goals - for the team.

wait a minute.. even one of the harshest kean critics, have given kean praise regarding hoilett and i cant remember anyone bashing kean regarding hoilett. Kean gets ridiculed for a number of things, but hoilett is certainly not one of them. Yet you continue to claim otherwise, So either you are lying or living in fantasyland.

Sam introduced hoilett to the PL, eased him inand offered him much needed experience, Kean has then taken it a step futher with hoilett and sure he deserves some praise for that.

[blue_and_white]

Yep that's how I would describe a long ball to Roberts head rather than Pedersen hookig it blindly over his head. Glad you like it though Jim and it gives you something else to repeat

How can anyone describe a goal kick as hoofball? As far as I am aware it is a necessary action stated in the rule book. Watch Satudays game and even Barcelona will take one just like Robinson.

But hey don't let facts get in the way of your blinkered view Jimbo

Blinkered view? Thats a good one, there was nothing more blinkered than the rubbish spouted by Allardyce's critics. Now all of a sudden there's a new manager and a long ball isn't a long ball anymore? Our 2nd goal was straight out of Big Sam's handbook and the only difference between the ball for our 3rd and the ones our purist fans used to go ballistic about is Roberts managed to knock this one down. That has little to do with the ball itself and a lot to do with Wolves shocking defending/Roberts excellent first half performance. Had that been against say Man U, Vidic would have shoved Roberts in the back then headed it away, Roberts would have gone down claiming a free kick, and you lot would have been moaning your heads off. At least you would under Sam, but these days its hypocrits-are-us and after 2 years of whinging, the Keanettes have miraculously transformed into positivity nazis.

[cruz]

So Sams fluffers consider a goal kick to be a long ball tactic? The fluffers even said the first goal was out of the Charles Hughes handbook

I'm certainly not a Keanette, just pointing out the FACTS when people makes claims that ALL THREE goals were from hoofball tactics.

[dubdubdub]

The difference between tactics is quite simple.

Sam put the ball into the box whenever possible. Route one. No other attacking means existed.

Kean has shown the team can play it about and get it to the wings and such. He uses the long ball when the situation suits it. Robbo belting the ball into the box from a free kick in our own half for example.

[davulsukur]

so kean has the luxury of a hoilett on form and yet cant progress and now you use he only had half a season as an excuse. Quite weird, especially as he inherited a team, occupying a tophalf spot.

going nowhere.. how do you come to that - totally irrational - conclusion.?

Ah i see, you only want to debate if its bashing sam and praising kean, otherwise its irrelevant.

its a perfectly valid point, does hoilets personel success, outweigh that of the team. My guess would be, that sam didnt use him more, as his decisions could be woeful and at times his roaming could be,at the expense of our team organisation.

with sam gaining 10th, i would be hard pressed questioning his judgemnent, if my guess regarding organisation and decisions are correct.

Sam introduced hoilett to the PL, eased him inand offered him much needed experience, Kean has then taken it a step futher with hoilett and sure he deserves some praise for that.

What?

The orignal point was that Junior was not progressing under Sam. And has progressed under Kean. The team's league position and progression from last season had nothing to do with it.

Irrational conclusion? What's irrational about it? Junior did not perform in 1 and a half seasons under Sam, and did perform in half a season under kean. Its hardly a "totally irrational" conclusion.

Am i even "bashing" Sam? You've assumed i don't like him, because i am saying Junior was not progressing under his management. When you don't actually know my thoughts regarding Sam.

You wouldn't question sams judgement, just because he finished 10th last year?

wait a minute.. even one of the harshest kean critics, have given kean praise regarding hoilett and i cant remember anyone bashing kean regarding hoilett. Kean gets ridiculed for a number of things, but hoilett is certainly not one of them. Yet you continue to claim otherwise, So either you are lying or living in fantasyland.

When did i say people have been bashing kean regarding Hoilett?

And may i remind you, that football is a team sport, so what one individual accomplishes really isnt relevant, unless its for the good of the team and its progress. but we didnt progress this season. Id rather have a poor kalinic upfront and finish 10th, than an excellent junior and finish lower.

you were the one who claimed indivual accomplishes are not relevant (Kean progressing Junior) unless it benifits the team (Sam getting 10th)

[Steve Moss]

with sam gaining 10th, i would be hard pressed questioning his judgemnent, if my guess regarding organisation and decisions are correct.

. . .

Sam introduced hoilett to the PL, eased him inand offered him much needed experience, Kean has then taken it a step futher with hoilett and sure he deserves some praise for that.

Sam is obviously a far better tactician than Kean.

And each of Hughes, Sam and Kean deserve credit for Hoilett's continued development.

IF Kean is staying, whether he stays or goes should be evaluated as of his 7th game. That gives any replacemment manager time to turn things around and make up lost ground, if needed.

I really hope Kean is wise, lucky or both in the transfer market.

[greco]

name='davulsukur'

What?

The orignal point was that Junior was not progressing under Sam. And has progressed under Kean. The team's league position and progression from last season had nothing to do with it.

whocares what the original point was, debates have to go with the flow.

so your point is, that under sam, junior didnt progress, that seems weid given his numerous aooearance under sam. Something tells me, that those game were much needed and bebeficial tohis development and part of the reason he has performed.

Irrational conclusion? What's irrational about it? Junior did not perform in 1 and a half seasons under Sam, and did perform in half a season under kean. Its hardly a "totally irrational" conclusion.

yes irrational and without sense. He was a part of the setup, who got us to finish 10th, so surely he must have done something right and performed reasonable well, otherwise he wouldnt be a part of it. He has played better under kean,but that does not change the fact, that his introduction was madeby sam, he was eased in correctly and we see the benefits now, That experience is a huge part of his performances under kean.

Am i even "bashing" Sam? You've assumed i don't like him, because i am saying Junior was not progressing under his management. When you don't actually know my thoughts regarding Sam.

your posts smells like your a keanette..

You wouldn't question sams judgement, just because he finished 10th last year?

yawn.. you can clearly do better than this..

When did i say people have been bashing kean regarding Hoilett?

seems to be your opinion. for several pages, youve cried about, kean not being praised.

you were the one who claimed indivual accomplishes are not relevant (Kean progressing Junior) unless it benifits the team (Sam getting 10th)

oh dear oh dear..

so sam and the team, getting our club to 10th, doesnt strike you as an accomplishment, that outshines getting a young player to perform.?

its fine kean has made junior perform better, but lets not pretend kean is a magician

edit: sorry for the spelling, my keyboard is ###### up..

[sambo]

Allardyce is certainly a better manager than Kean, but the majority of the tripe at the moment is coming from the people in the 'Big Sam camp' (like you have to take sides )

One goal was hoofball, just because the pass out wide for Robert's goal left the floor doesn't make it 'hoofball', it was a directed pass aimed at the man, NOT a ball played into a certain area with the hope of gaining territory and maybe even a knock down for a goal. It was just a normal pass that happened to leave the ground.

Jim again with his ridiculous posts, are we surprised?

[MarkBRFC71]

Allardyce is certainly a better manager than Kean, but the majority of the tripe at the moment is coming from the people in the 'Big Sam camp' (like you have to take sides )

One goal was hoofball, just because the pass out wide for Robert's goal left the floor doesn't make it 'hoofball', it was a directed pass aimed at the man, NOT a ball played into a certain area with the hope of gaining territory and maybe even a knock down for a goal. It was just a normal pass that happened to leave the ground.

Jim again with his ridiculous posts, are we surprised?

Don't be too harsh on Jim, he's had a rough 18 months - I think he's teetering on the brink tbh.

Labour got trounced in the general election, Gordy got fired and replaced by a mealy-mouthed schoolboy (with as much chance of being the next PM as Nick Griffin), Sam got sacked, MGP's been dropped - and now Rovers haven't gone down so he can't post that "I told you so" message he's been working on since January.

[braddock]

Haven't read every post but saw a few so will add my opinion, which I doubt will be respected, but here's how I see it.

• Hoilett was brought on only occasionally for Allardyce and was constantly given long balls to deal with (of which I'll describe in the next point) and little time to make an impact. He was indeed younger and therefore he might not have been ready to be a first team regular, but it is pointless forcing players like this in to being something they are not (see Di Santo). You have to play to your strengths and with what Diouf offered defensively, we could have catered for Hoilett's talents in that system, even had he been a substitute. I also don't believe he would have developed the way he has with regards to Premier League experience, confidence and indeed technique (which has improved dramatically - partly due to age, as he was younger under Allardcye, but also due to PL game time) had he been forced to play under those circumstances this season had Allardyce stayed. Nor do I feel he would want to continue being at the club.
  
• Long balls under Kean do tend to have more direction, possibly because some of the time we have played with two strikers. It's been different to lumping it aimlessly to an unsupported Kalinic as there are sometimes two players to look to out wide or a support striker. The striker(s) are able to take the ball down with their chest or thigh far more often than under the last management where it tended to be their neck. They have also at times been able to lay the ball back to a central midfielder (which we now have whilst attacking). Another reason they don't seem to be as aimless is because our players seem to actively look at where to pass when they get the ball. They seem to have confidence to pass a football, which they never did under the last management. I'm not trying to say all long balls under Kean are perfect and all of Allardyce's were hoofball, but I can see a clear difference between the two and at least Kean mixes both passing and direct football. I don't believe Allardyce's was direct, in the sense of direct football. I know that will mean a lot of you will think that makes me biased, but I think those who disagree believe the Allardcye self made myths, and they will be the ones who thought it was Allardyce or relegation. This season has proved this isn't the case. Kean may not be the one, but Allardyce isn't the only one.
  

[booth]

So there's no truth in these Benitez stories then?

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2011/05/24/aston-villa-face-competition-from-blackburn-rovers-in-rafa-benitez-chase/#more-61737

[otto man]

So there's no truth in these Benitez stories then?

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2011/05/24/aston-villa-face-competition-from-blackburn-rovers-in-rafa-benitez-chase/#more-61737

Just a rehash of a notw story from a couple of weeks ago. Do keep up Booth! Take 200 hundred lines and a weeks detention

[thenodrog]

Sorry to digress from what has been a rivetting conversation about Hoillet but some members said our win against Wolves came from 3 goals forged in the 'alleged' Big Sam Hoofball furnace.

Whilst the rain is bouncing down I have just been re-watching MOTD and noticed

Goal 1: Started with a throw in and after a good bit of hassling and 4/5 passes a wayward Salgado shot was re-directed into the net by Roberts

EXCELLENT PLAY AGAIN FROM HOILETT. A HIT AND HOPE FROM SALGADO AND A RATHER FLUKEY FINISH FROM ROBERTS.

Goal 2: This one came out of Sam's user manual. Typical Robinson free kick into the Wolves box. Poor defensive header but nothing hoof about Emertons finish

EXACTLY.

Goal 3: From a poorly defended goal kick (only seen on the replay), Roberts touched it down and Hoillet created his own goal

CLASSIC BOLTON GOAL. LONG BALL TO DAVIES FOR A TYPICAL KNOCK DOWN. WE WERE UNDONE AT THE REEBOK WITH JUST SUCH A GOAL. HOILETTS FINISH WAS CLASS BECAUSE HE HAD MUCH MORE TO DO THAN HOLDEN. IMAGINE DAVIES AND HOILETT PLAYING TOGETHER!!

So in fact it was only 1 goal out of 3 that came from percentage football.

OBVIOUSLY RUBBISH NOW THAT YOU HAVE THE BENEFIT OF MY JUDGEMENT.

People are so adamant in their views depending on how much they hated Sam (or dislike/don't rate Kean).

Clearly Sam/Kean both deserve credit for Junior's development and more recently (obviously) Kean for giving him game time - move on.

Well said John.

[thenodrog]

I am willing to give Steve kean a chance next season. I will judge him on the results next season.

I feel there is a touch of last match euphoria here. Chaddy if we had beaten Fulham in early March and lost to Wolves last match we'd have the same points total but would you hold the same opinion?

Yep that's how I would describe a long ball to Roberts head rather than Pedersen hookig it blindly over his head. Glad you like it though Jim and it gives you something else to repeat

How can anyone describe a goal kick as hoofball? As far as I am aware it is a necessary action stated in the rule book. Watch Satudays game and even Barcelona will take one just like Robinson.

But hey don't let facts get in the way of your blinkered view Jimbo

Roberts head ffs!!!! He does my bloody head in thats for sure. Watch that re-run again and you'll see that Jason was actually moving away and 'hiding' from challenging for the hoofball that lead to Emnertons goal. Absolutely typical of him.

[Stuart]

So there's no truth in these Benitez stories then?

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2011/05/24/aston-villa-face-competition-from-blackburn-rovers-in-rafa-benitez-chase/#more-61737

I must admit I was surprised that modes closed the Rafa thread on the same day that he did an interview on SSN saying he wants to stay in England and he is:

"looking for a club with an idea about the future, an idea about how to create something, but at the same time to keep winning."

His phrasing seemed to specifically not rule us out. I doubt he would come but I'd swap Kean for him in a heartbeat.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_6951823,00.html

[booth]

Just a rehash of a notw story from a couple of weeks ago. Do keep up Booth! Take 200 hundred lines and a weeks detention

Sorry, I just couldn't put myself through the rather lengthy "who was the best hoofballer, Kean or Allardyce" mass debate

[thenodrog]

The difference between tactics is quite simple.

Sam put the ball into the box whenever possible. Route one. No other attacking means existed.

Kean has shown the team can play it about and get it to the wings and such. He uses the long ball when the situation suits it. Robbo belting the ball into the box from a free kick in our own half for example.

Neither are perfect obviously but the entire point of the argument is that Allardyce got more points per game. Avoiding relegation and maximising the placing payments is waht it's all about in the Prem. In fact extrapolate the points gained by Kean in 21 matches over a season and the total would be 39 points, apply the same math to Allardyces 21 from 17 and we'd finish on 48 points. Last week we'd have precariously stayed up on goal difference only under Kean (not done respective GD figures btw) whilst an 8th/9th finish under Allardyce would have earned the club in excess of 4m extra.

To put that into financial perspective that equates to the total gate receipts taken over an entire season of an extra 17000 supporters for every home game!

[chaddyrovers]

I feel there is a touch of last match euphoria here. Chaddy if we had beaten Fulham in early March and lost to Wolves last match we'd have the same points total but would you hold the same opinion?

My point is that Kean will be here next season whatever we might think. The owners wanted Kean to be manager for whatever their reasons are.

So we might aswell see how he does next season. give him 12 games then judge him.

If it was mine decision then I wouldn't have sacked SA and give him till the end of the season. Then appoint a different manager. If I had my choice then my shortlist would be Carlo Ancelotti, Michael Laudrup, Claudio Ranieri, David Moyes, Martin Jol, Steve McClaren and Alan Shearer.

I would approach each one and asked whether they were interest in the rovers job and if they were then interview them and asked them for a 3 year plan and where they think that they could take the team to. Then decide which one was the best and go for him.

[Amo]

It was probably Bucky who said it originally, but did people really expect a coach (who's never managed a pro game in his life) to take over an established PL club, in the toughest league in the world, and not screw up? That's why Venky's deserve the flak, if anyone does, not Kean. He simply took an offer that was too good to refuse. And at least he's shown the ability to learn from his mistakes, whilst keeping the players united and continuing to develop our young stars.

It takes time for the best of managers to make their mark at a club, let alone complete rookies. I'm not saying Kean will make it here, the odds are still stacked against him, but I'm ready to see what he can do with a pre-season under his belt. I don't think things will be boring around here, one way or another.

[thenodrog]

If it was mine decision then I wouldn't have sacked SA and give him till the end of the season. Then appoint a different manager. If I had my choice then my shortlist would be Carlo Ancelotti, Michael Laudrup, Claudio Ranieri, David Moyes, Martin Jol, Steve McClaren and Alan Shearer.

I would approach each one and asked whether they were interest in the rovers job and if they were then interview them and asked them for a 3 year plan and where they think that they could take the team to. Then decide which one was the best and go for him.

1. Shearer and Maclaren ffs? Put em both together and you still don't have a manager of Allardyces quality! Moyes is the best shout by a mile but our fans would hate his 4-5-1 formation on a good day and his 4-6-0 on a bad one.

2. You've assumed that at least one would have wanted the job.... and thats a dangerous assumption given our circumstances. Andersons involvement will go against the grain with any self respecting manager worth his salt and the baffling and irrational thought processes of the Venkey mob will put off everybody but the desperate.

[BuckyRover]

It was probably Bucky who said it originally, but did people really expect a coach (who's never managed a pro game in his life) to take over an established PL club, in the toughest league in the world, and not screw up? That's why Venky's deserve the flak, if anyone does, not Kean. He simply took an offer that was too good to refuse. And at least he's shown the ability to learn from his mistakes, whilst keeping the players united and continuing to develop our young stars.

It takes time for the best of managers to make their mark at a club, let alone complete rookies. I'm not saying Kean will make it here, the odds are still stacked against him, but I'm ready to see what he can do with a pre-season under his belt. I don't think things will be boring around here, one way or another.

For a complete novice. He's done WELL.

[gumboots]

1. Shearer and Maclaren ffs? Put em both together and you still don't have a manager of Allardyces quality! Moyes is the best shout by a mile but our fans would hate his 4-5-1 formation on a good day and his 4-6-0 on a bad one.

2. You've assumed that at least one would have wanted the job.... and thats a dangerous assumption given our circumstances. Andersons involvement will go against the grain with any self respecting manager worth his salt and the baffling and irrational thought processes of the Venkey mob will put off everybody but the desperate.

i'm not sure putting those 2 together you've even got a manager of Kean's quality. All my family are Boro fans and they certainly never really rated McClaren. Yes, he gave them some excitement but tactically he wasn't very good.

[chaddyrovers]

1. Shearer and Maclaren ffs? Put em both together and you still don't have a manager of Allardyces quality! Moyes is the best shout by a mile but our fans would hate his 4-5-1 formation on a good day and his 4-6-0 on a bad one.

2. You've assumed that at least one would have wanted the job.... and thats a dangerous assumption given our circumstances. Andersons involvement will go against the grain with any self respecting manager worth his salt and the baffling and irrational thought processes of the Venkey mob will put off everybody but the desperate.

I think McClaren would do a good job here.

Shearer could do a good job aslong he has a good number 2 and the right coaching staff with him.

I said if I was in charge so Anderson would not be anywhere near the club.

Also if they was a vacant at rovers, then people would be sending in their cv's and also making sure that their agent contact the club to say that they are interest in the rovers job.

I was just saying that those names would be on my shortlist if I was the rovers owner.

who would you like to be the rovers manager then if you was the owner thenodrog?

[booth]

For a complete novice. He's done WELL.

Let's just hope he doesn't do badly then

[Amo]

who would you like to be the rovers manager then if you was the owner thenodrog?

'Praise be to Allar-dyce!' will be his response.