[Archived] Steve Kean

[sparkspakespoke]

Ah, another famous "middle of the road" opinion. I'm sure the general public totally agrees with that middle ground opinion when they come to us in their hour of need...

If you work in the NHS then you know they rarely get to see you for more than five minutes in their hour of need, although I cant blame that on you.

Nothing middle of the road about this opinion, it's extreme but being forced to to work with hundreds of incompetents will do that to a person. I can honestly say in seven years I only met two doctors who could admit to being wrong, both consultansts at UCLH.

[Gav]

It's not a bad life really. Beats sticking around in Blackburn, for sure.

I'm pretty sure you've asked me this question before and I've told you when I haven't been there. Kinda weird you find it so necessary to monitor my attendance, between that and my appearance in your signature I'm worried I might have a stalker on my hands..

Attendance, in your case, points towards credibility, with me being barrister and all that I can talk about credibility and law

Still its good to see you’ve not abandoned the cause even though Allardyce was sacked, I almost gave up under his reign, you doctors are obviously built of sterner stuff.

[tony gale's mic]

Really? If you're including Pulis then what about Woy at Fulham? Saved them one year , qualified for Europe the next, cup final in last year? Whats about O'Neill at Leicester? Did so well he ended up at Celtic? Or even Sratchan at Coventry at Southampton? Harry Redknapp at Pompey? Alan Curbishley at Charlton....

O Neill at Leicester wasn't in the last ten years - the ten years is deliberate as it marks a point where CL money in the Premier League started to have more and more of an impact, and also a year later it heralded the arrival of rich foreign owners in the league.

Hodgson only finished top 10 with Fulham one season, compare that to all the top 10 finishes Sam achieved with Rovers and Bolton. Redknapp spent a huge wad at Pompey which eventually led to their downfall, hardly a great example. Curbishley as good a job as he did with Charlton only finished top 10 with them once.

Granted Pulis hasnt achieved top 10 with Stoke all that much either, but the league is tougher these days. Either way managers like Sam are rare as hens' teeth in this league.

[chaddyrovers]

What was there about the Bolton game that makes you think we might have struggled for the remainder of the season? Jones went to sleep in midfield and didn't pick up Holden's run from midfield otherwise we would have had a point. How that compares to the shambles at Wigan under Ince I'm not quite sure. I'm not saying that Sam was the best manager in the world but he was right for this club in the situation we were in. Sadly, for all Venky's talk about finishing in the top four we are one point away from the relegation zone. Compare that with last season and a tenth place finish.

Personally, I'd happily take a few heavy defeats - and yes I was at Old Trafford - in return for mid-table security. Sam knew which matches had to be won for the club to survive. I don't believe that Kean and Desai have the slightest idea of how to keep this club afloat in the top flight, particularly on a limited budget.

excellent post and i totally agree. I was at the Bolton game and we should have won that. Yes Old Trafford was awful. BUT Big Sam won the games we needed to win and we did beat Arsenal at home and drew witn Cheslea and Man Utd last season. We never lost to teams around us at home and we were Always safe under Big Sam.

This season was difficult becuase we spend no money on any players and got a striker on loan and another one on a free. So Big Sam was doing the best job he could with the finances we have at the club. I felt this season we could get another top 10 finish.

Everybody has their view on Big Sam reign at the club and we will all have different views on him. We should all agree to disagree and move on.

We are in current position because Kean is NOT up to the job. And the owners WON'T amdit their mistake in appoint Him and they were listen to the advice of their friend who knew what he was doing . We can't blame Big Sam for any of what is going on at the club now!

[greco]

It amazes me that people can write rubbish like this and think they're occupying some sort of "sensible middle ground".

Sam's first season was all about saving us from the horrors of the Ince debacle. Which he did pretty comfortably in the end.

His second season was all about stability and pointwise we were as close to the Champions' League as we were to 17th.

What on earth more did you expect from someone with a limited squad and a negative transfer budget? Surely mid table security in the second season was all we could have hoped for? Maybe we should have outdone Everton who both had an excellent manager and could afford to spend £28 million on two midfielders alone (despite all their talk of financial woes).

And nothing in his career showed he could take the club further? How about multiple European qualifications with Bolton and missing out on a Champions' League spot with them by a whisker one season?

The league is tougher now, there's more teams with far more money these days so I doubt he would've done the same with us. But to demand more than mid table security from ANY manager with the resources is a totally unrealistic expectation and doesn't occupy any sort of sensible middle ground.

excellent post.

i imagine, that its quite painfull, trying to conduct af football conversation, with a person whos knowledge is reminiscent of mrs desai. If people have trouble with remembering her, its the lady who admitted, to having absolutely no knowledge of football.

[ABBEY]

Bet gav has more games on his CV than you or Dr Narcissism put together.

[imy9]

Could people stop quoting the nutty Doc please, have had him on ignore but it won't work if you keep quoting him

Another Kean thread that's becoming a Sam lovefest.

[tony gale's mic]

Bet gav has more games on his CV than you or Dr Narcissism put together.

And I have many more games on my "CV" than many people on here, especially the ones who aren't even from the UK.

Luckily when discussing football with them I use my knowledge of the game and how it works rather than comparing attendance records which would just be stupid.

P.S. Abbey, that's a very long word for you. I'm impressed.

[MeanGreenMachine]

How was Sam a perfectly good manager when we had ambitions of playing football sometime in the future?

Sadly for SA, though his football is effective at times, it was complete tosh to watch. At the end of last season it seemed to get a little better, then this season it went down hill again back to stoneage stuff.

[imy9]

Based on what he has done so far I have little confidence in Kean the manager, however come Saturday and every game after he will have my full support, I only hope the risk that has been taken pays off.

[sambo]

Bet gav has more games on his CV than you or Dr Narcissism put together.

Waggy's been to a lot of games though, and he's pretty much an anti-fan nowadays.

He loved seeing us love under Sam, he'd even get his smiley emoticons celebrating it

And don't pretend he was this huge fan, he stopped going because he didn't like our top 10 achieving manager

[modes98]

How was Sam a perfectly good manager when we had ambitions of playing football sometime in the future?

Sadly for SA, though his football is effective at times, it was complete tosh to watch. At the end of last season it seemed to get a little better, then this season it went down hill again back to stoneage stuff.

But you fail to see that you can't change the culture within a club overnight. That has never and will never happen at any club.

You need to evolve in time. If you were to try and do it then do it at the start of the season and give players time to gel in pre-season at least.

Making a massive change in approach midseason leads to disaster and if we are lucky enough to survive it will be because those around are rubbish and the points Big Sam secured us.

The hoof ball label is all rubbish anyway. You do what you have to do to win a match. From Man u down to Wolves, you play the best way to make the opposition ineffective and you the biggest threat you can be. Sometimes that means having a more defensive team and playing up to a lone striker, sometimes it means more expansive football, Sam's team was capable of both.

Looking forward to tomorrow. Not for the quality of football. Not for seeing Venky's brand of passing football. For 3 points towards our survival in the PL and a step further away from the prospect of the footballing abyss.

[tony gale's mic]

How was Sam a perfectly good manager when we had ambitions of playing football sometime in the future?

Sadly for SA, though his football is effective at times, it was complete tosh to watch. At the end of last season it seemed to get a little better, then this season it went down hill again back to stoneage stuff.

The only correct way to play football is the type of football which gets you the best results.

Barcelona play the way they do because they have the money and the scouting resources to attract very skilful players from across the globe. If they tried to play Allardyce style football their results would suffer, so they play to their strengths. It's just good for them that this type of football is aesthetically pleasing to the neutral.

Blackburn Rovers on the other hand have limited resources and the side Allardyce inherited were very good physically, good in the tackle but had little skill. Players with skill and flair cost money to buy. Sam didn't really have much money. So playing in the way he did was playing to our strengths.

Seriously, this is basic stuff that shouldn't need explaining.

[sparkspakespoke]

The only correct way to play football is the type of football which gets you the best results.

Barcelona play the way they do because they have the money and the scouting resources to attract very skilful players from across the globe. If they tried to play Allardyce style football their results would suffer, so they play to their strengths. It's just good for them that this type of football is aesthetically pleasing to the neutral.

Blackburn Rovers on the other hand have limited resources and the side Allardyce inherited were very good physically, good in the tackle but had little skill. Players with skill and flair cost money to buy. Sam didn't really have much money. So playing in the way he did was playing to our strengths.

Seriously, this is basic stuff that shouldn't need explaining.

This is an easy trap to fall into, to believe that the only way to be successful on a limited budget is to play the percentage football Sam relied on. A lot of our more impressionable fans seem to swallow chapter and verse Sams self promotion.

There is a big difference between the football Hughes and Allardyce played yet they both could be said to be playing to our strenghts. The difference is in the details, they both wanted their teams to physically compete but Hughes set us up to attack in a way that was better to watch and more successful.

I do of course realise that man for man we had a far better team under Hughes, however when he took over we were just as bereft of talent and Hughes built a team through outstanding work in the transfer market.

Sam was not outstanding in the transfer market, in fact it would be genrous to describe him as decent. Which is a shame as I always thought we would play far better under him if he could bring in a player to spark like Jay Jay did at Bolton, however he never managed to do that. Yes the budget constrainsaints made it hard but it was the same for Hughes and you have to look at other ways of bringing players in like Hughes did with Bentley.

Sam was great for the job he came to do, ie put out a big fire caused by Ince. I can see the logic in our owners wanting someone different to try and take us to the next level. The sad thing is they appointed so badly in Kean that we now need a fireman again and its put us back a good copuple of years in terms of progress.

[tony gale's mic]

This is an easy trap to fall into, to believe that the only way to be successful on a limited budget is to play the percentage football Sam relied on. A lot of our more impressionable fans seem to swallow chapter and verse Sams self promotion.

There is a big difference between the football Hughes and Allardyce played yet they both could be said to be playing to our strenghts. The difference is in the details, they both wanted their teams to physically compete but Hughes set us up to attack in a way that was better to watch and more successful.

I do of course realise that man for man we had a far better team under Hughes, however when he took over we were just as bereft of talent and Hughes built a team through outstanding work in the transfer market.

Sam was not outstanding in the transfer market, in fact it would be genrous to describe him as decent. Which is a shame as I always thought we would play far better under him if he could bring in a player to spark like Jay Jay did at Bolton, however he never managed to do that. Yes the budget constrainsaints made it hard but it was the same for Hughes and you have to look at other ways of bringing players in like Hughes did with Bentley.

Sam was great for the job he came to do, ie put out a big fire caused by Ince. I can see the logic in our owners wanting someone different to try and take us to the next level. The sad thing is they appointed so badly in Kean that we now need a fireman again and its put us back a good copuple of years in terms of progress.

Hughes inherited Tugay in his prime. That was a huge, huge benefit that Sam never saw. The quality of football under Hughes declined as time went on and as Tugay's legs started to go, the season when Bellamy was ripping up defences was great to watch but in his final season there were many people on here moaning about the style of play under him - I wasn't one of them though. And we finished bottom of the fair play league every year under Hughes. We were just as derided under Hughes for our playing style as we were under Sam, albeit for different reasons. Hughes' football was more aesthetically pleasing but in his final season the difference wasn't that marked.

Also Hughes finished 10th in his final season with Rovers, the same as Sam did in his only full season. Yes Hughes finished 6th in his best season (05-06) too, but lets compare the teams above him: Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs. City were 15th and Villa 16th, both yet to be touched by foreign investment. Everton were 11th, Moyes' magic was yet to really take hold. Sam would have finished above all three of them if they didn't become stronger. The only team who finished above Sam who weren't taken into account were Birmingham who we finished level on points with last season.

So Sam's success last season wasn't much different to Hughes' when he finished 6th, but there's three more teams compared to that season who we simply can't keep up with anymore.

The only managers to consistently achieve safe mid table positions (or better) on a shoestring in the last ten years are Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis and Curbishley. Out of those Hughes had the best playing style early on but was still widely criticised for it. The other three were known for producing fairly dour football. On the other hand I can name countless teams who played pretty football early on but went down before too long - I expect Blackpool to be one of them next season if not this season.

[joey_big_nose]

Hughes inherited Tugay in his prime. That was a huge, huge benefit that Sam never saw. The quality of football under Hughes declined as time went on and as Tugay's legs started to go, the season when Bellamy was ripping up defences was great to watch but in his final season there were many people on here moaning about the style of play under him - I wasn't one of them though. And we finished bottom of the fair play league every year under Hughes. We were just as derided under Hughes for our playing style as we were under Sam, albeit for different reasons. Hughes' football was more aesthetically pleasing but in his final season the difference wasn't that marked.

Also Hughes finished 10th in his final season with Rovers, the same as Sam did in his only full season. Yes Hughes finished 6th in his best season (05-06) too, but lets compare the teams above him: Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs. City were 15th and Villa 16th, both yet to be touched by foreign investment. Everton were 11th, Moyes' magic was yet to really take hold. Sam would have finished above all three of them if they didn't become stronger. The only team who finished above Sam who weren't taken into account were Birmingham who we finished level on points with last season.

So Sam's success last season wasn't much different to Hughes' when he finished 6th, but there's three more teams compared to that season who we simply can't keep up with anymore.

The only managers to consistently achieve safe mid table positions (or better) on a shoestring in the last ten years are Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis and Curbishley. Out of those Hughes had the best playing style early on but was still widely criticised for it. The other three were known for producing fairly dour football. On the other hand I can name countless teams who played pretty football early on but went down before too long - I expect Blackpool to be one of them next season if not this season.

Totally agree with this. Many managers have come in playing decent football on no cash but ended up going down after two or three seasons.

We are gambling on Kean being a new Coyle or Hughes - getting incredible amounts of average players and bringing in quality - which sadly doesn't seem to be the case.

[mark1875]

Hughes inherited Tugay in his prime. That was a huge, huge benefit that Sam never saw. The quality of football under Hughes declined as time went on and as Tugay's legs started to go, the season when Bellamy was ripping up defences was great to watch but in his final season there were many people on here moaning about the style of play under him - I wasn't one of them though. And we finished bottom of the fair play league every year under Hughes. We were just as derided under Hughes for our playing style as we were under Sam, albeit for different reasons. Hughes' football was more aesthetically pleasing but in his final season the difference wasn't that marked.

Also Hughes finished 10th in his final season with Rovers, the same as Sam did in his only full season. Yes Hughes finished 6th in his best season (05-06) too, but lets compare the teams above him: Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs. City were 15th and Villa 16th, both yet to be touched by foreign investment. Everton were 11th, Moyes' magic was yet to really take hold. Sam would have finished above all three of them if they didn't become stronger. The only team who finished above Sam who weren't taken into account were Birmingham who we finished level on points with last season.

So Sam's success last season wasn't much different to Hughes' when he finished 6th, but there's three more teams compared to that season who we simply can't keep up with anymore.

The only managers to consistently achieve safe mid table positions (or better) on a shoestring in the last ten years are Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis and Curbishley. Out of those Hughes had the best playing style early on but was still widely criticised for it. The other three were known for producing fairly dour football. On the other hand I can name countless teams who played pretty football early on but went down before too long - I expect Blackpool to be one of them next season if not this season.

very very sensible post!! pretty accurate in my opinion

[sparkspakespoke]

Hughes inherited Tugay in his prime. That was a huge, huge benefit that Sam never saw. The quality of football under Hughes declined as time went on and as Tugay's legs started to go, the season when Bellamy was ripping up defences was great to watch but in his final season there were many people on here moaning about the style of play under him - I wasn't one of them though. And we finished bottom of the fair play league every year under Hughes. We were just as derided under Hughes for our playing style as we were under Sam, albeit for different reasons. Hughes' football was more aesthetically pleasing but in his final season the difference wasn't that marked.

Also Hughes finished 10th in his final season with Rovers, the same as Sam did in his only full season. Yes Hughes finished 6th in his best season (05-06) too, but lets compare the teams above him: Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs. City were 15th and Villa 16th, both yet to be touched by foreign investment. Everton were 11th, Moyes' magic was yet to really take hold. Sam would have finished above all three of them if they didn't become stronger. The only team who finished above Sam who weren't taken into account were Birmingham who we finished level on points with last season.

So Sam's success last season wasn't much different to Hughes' when he finished 6th, but there's three more teams compared to that season who we simply can't keep up with anymore.

The only managers to consistently achieve safe mid table positions (or better) on a shoestring in the last ten years are Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis and Curbishley. Out of those Hughes had the best playing style early on but was still widely criticised for it. The other three were known for producing fairly dour football. On the other hand I can name countless teams who played pretty football early on but went down before too long - I expect Blackpool to be one of them next season if not this season.

Fair points and a good post. Sadly I cant give it the reply it deserves as i'm on my phone now.

Couple of things though. I would argue the football under hughes got worse as he lost interest in the job due to uh financial constraints. Pretty much after he courted the newcastle job. This was the reason for decline not tugs.

I also couldn't give a toss what the media or other fans think about the way we play but we were criticised under sam for our style with the ball, under hughes it was what we did without the ball and that makes a huge difference in terms of enjoying the games.

[roversmum]

To be fair, it wasn't the style of play under either Hughes or Sam that really depressed me. It was the lack of motivation from the players in so many of the matches when they didn't even try - or so it seemed. Although I guess some would say it was the style of football they were expected to play demotivated the players ...

[sambo]

Hughes inherited Tugay in his prime. That was a huge, huge benefit that Sam never saw. The quality of football under Hughes declined as time went on and as Tugay's legs started to go, the season when Bellamy was ripping up defences was great to watch but in his final season there were many people on here moaning about the style of play under him - I wasn't one of them though. And we finished bottom of the fair play league every year under Hughes. We were just as derided under Hughes for our playing style as we were under Sam, albeit for different reasons. Hughes' football was more aesthetically pleasing but in his final season the difference wasn't that marked.

Also Hughes finished 10th in his final season with Rovers, the same as Sam did in his only full season. Yes Hughes finished 6th in his best season (05-06) too, but lets compare the teams above him: Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs. City were 15th and Villa 16th, both yet to be touched by foreign investment. Everton were 11th, Moyes' magic was yet to really take hold. Sam would have finished above all three of them if they didn't become stronger. The only team who finished above Sam who weren't taken into account were Birmingham who we finished level on points with last season.

So Sam's success last season wasn't much different to Hughes' when he finished 6th, but there's three more teams compared to that season who we simply can't keep up with anymore.

The only managers to consistently achieve safe mid table positions (or better) on a shoestring in the last ten years are Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis and Curbishley. Out of those Hughes had the best playing style early on but was still widely criticised for it. The other three were known for producing fairly dour football. On the other hand I can name countless teams who played pretty football early on but went down before too long - I expect Blackpool to be one of them next season if not this season.

Moyes' magic hadn't taken hold? One bad season maybe, but the season before they finished 4th.

[MeanGreenMachine]

Modes: I never said it needing changing now. TGM talked of why change SA in when it got to the summer when he was capable. For a club to move forward everyone needs to be pulling in the same direction. Venkys what to play attractive passing football, SA has failed to be that sort of manager at every club he has been at. Like i say, SA was effective against certain teams in his tactics (i say certain teams, because we saw on so many occasions we had no plan .

And the hoofball label wasn't rubbish, we were dire and route one for 80% of his tenure. People who i know who used to have us as a second team lost interest after seeing the toss served up as football on the odd occasion we were on tele or they came up for a game with me.

TGM: In general, if you want people to respect your opinion and enjoy a debate, get your head out your arse and drop the snide comments...

But i think sparkspakespoke's post sums up SA tenure very well.

[chaddyrovers]

Hughes inherited Tugay in his prime. That was a huge, huge benefit that Sam never saw. The quality of football under Hughes declined as time went on and as Tugay's legs started to go, the season when Bellamy was ripping up defences was great to watch but in his final season there were many people on here moaning about the style of play under him - I wasn't one of them though. And we finished bottom of the fair play league every year under Hughes. We were just as derided under Hughes for our playing style as we were under Sam, albeit for different reasons. Hughes' football was more aesthetically pleasing but in his final season the difference wasn't that marked.

Also Hughes finished 10th in his final season with Rovers, the same as Sam did in his only full season. Yes Hughes finished 6th in his best season (05-06) too, but lets compare the teams above him: Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs. City were 15th and Villa 16th, both yet to be touched by foreign investment. Everton were 11th, Moyes' magic was yet to really take hold. Sam would have finished above all three of them if they didn't become stronger. The only team who finished above Sam who weren't taken into account were Birmingham who we finished level on points with last season.

So Sam's success last season wasn't much different to Hughes' when he finished 6th, but there's three more teams compared to that season who we simply can't keep up with anymore.

The only managers to consistently achieve safe mid table positions (or better) on a shoestring in the last ten years are Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis and Curbishley. Out of those Hughes had the best playing style early on but was still widely criticised for it. The other three were known for producing fairly dour football. On the other hand I can name countless teams who played pretty football early on but went down before too long - I expect Blackpool to be one of them next season if not this season.

Excellent post.

I've got one problem with this is we finish 7th in Hughes final season. we finish 10th the season before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Rovers_F.C.#Premier_League_record

[den]

And the hoofball label wasn't rubbish, we were dire and route one for 80% of his tenure

Just as we are now.

For the millionth time, technically good players will play. Technically inferior players will struggle. You think Tugay, Bellamy, Bentley, Clayton, Douglas, England, Eamonn Rodgers, Tony Field, Ardilles, Archibald, Brotherstone, Graeme Le Saux, John Bailey, Kevin Hird, would just have hoofed it, even under Sam? You reckon Andrews, Grella, Jermaine Jones, Givet, Roberts are going to become great pass and movers?

It's no coincidence that the best football Rovers have played as long as I've been watching them, has come alongside quality footballers.

[sparkspakespoke]

Just as we are now.

For the millionth time, technically good players will play. Technically inferior players will struggle. You think Tugay, Bellamy, Bentley, Clayton, Douglas, England, Eamonn Rodgers, Tony Field, Ardilles, Archibald, Brotherstone, Graeme Le Saux, John Bailey, Kevin Hird, would just have hoofed it, even under Sam? You reckon Andrews, Grella, Jermaine Jones, Givet, Roberts are going to become great pass and movers?

It's no coincidence that the best football Rovers have played as long as I've been watching them, has come alongside quality footballers.

Of course quality will tell, but the way a manager sets a team up and makes them play does have a large bearing on it. If proof is needed look at the football bolton play now under coyle compared to that of megson with largely the same group of players.

[tony gale's mic]

Moyes' magic hadn't taken hold? One bad season maybe, but the season before they finished 4th.

Fair point, but doesn't make much of a difference to the point of the post.