[Archived] Steve Kean

[booth]

I think someone should send a letter to Collins explaining the difference between moaning and MOANING.

[den]

Ever moan about Allardyce and hoofball Topman?

That's moaning not MOANING den

People have every right to voice their concerns about the club. I never said otherwise.

But the constant scaremongering and conspiracy theories day after day? That's a joke.

lol. You're right Matty.

[Majiball]

Total tosh! How the hell do you control variables such as a refereeing decisions?, miss kicks,wet grass and the million and one other random events that happen during the course of a match? You talk about controling as many as possible and then give probably the only two that the manager could begin to legislate for "tactics and motivation". Minimise /instigate these parameters? Which company meeting did you get that one from? Let's face it maj you'd grab any available stick to bash Kean with and you are doing. If you were judged so harshly at work using such vague criteria you would no doubt think it unreasonable. Double standards methinks

Ottoman since you take such issue with my vocabulary (words) I have placed in brackets simplified (easy) words so hopefully you can better understand what I write.

So I say he needs to control as many as possible and then list the ones he can???? What's wrong with that? I took the ones listed by Gumboots read them through (something you might like to start doing) and listed the ones I believe a manager can influence and so consequently (as a result) you can gain an element (some) of (if you've used some ottoman ignore the "of" so as to avoid confusion) control. The better the person at doing so, surely the more control one has?

But no you sit down read something completely different about me claiming that Kean can control refreeing decisions and the weather and proceed to spout garbage (the stuff that comes out of your mouth). At the end of the day ottoman I meet my targets at work easily and so don't have to be worried about being judged harshly as I perform as I claim I can. Kean claimed top 10 at worst and we do not look anything like a team heading for the top ten at present, do we? So if say I was only performing to 50% or so of what I stated I would achieve, then yes I'd expect to by now considering it's been 8 games and almost 3 months (IE 1/4 of a working year or for kean 1/3 of a working year) then yes by now I'd have had the hairdryer treatment and told to sort myself out. And rightly so.

I get judged at work on my results, just as everyone in the whole world does ottoman. If a call centre agent has to hit 100 sales a month and in the interview for the job says "I can do that easy" and then 2.5 months down the line he's making 50 and everyone else is hitting their targets, do you give them employee of the month, no. You get a three month trial period and for me that me's it's time for a parting of the ways. At rovers we reward such astounding (very good) achievements (is that word OK? or should I use stuff?) with unsackable 3 year contracts which will most likely make said individual (man) a millionaire (rich)?

Kean hasn't won a game since Jan 23rd or 8 games for you ottoman to make it simple. And given the teams we have played I do not deem that acceptable (alright) given his claims of where we would finish.

[tony gale's mic]

As usual Den, what's your point?

People have every right to voice their concerns about the club. I never said otherwise.

But the constant scaremongering and conspiracy theories day after day? That's a joke.

I don't buy into all the conspiracy theories. There's no doubt there's been a few posts on the wrong side of hysterical. However, if an influential agents' son with no discernible footballing pedigree gets signed for the club, if a coach with little pedigree but with very strong contacts to SEM gets catapulted into the managers seat at the expense of a successful manager like Sam, if one of the clubs' finest servants in JW gets forced out, then people are going to ask serious questions and people will draw all sorts of conclusions even if some of them are far fetched. That's only natural.

People moaning about "hoofball" under Allardyce and making unrealistic demands and expectations like you and others did on numerous occasions when we were doing very well as a football club is FAR worse than people moaning on here when we haven't won since January, are still second bottom of the form table and have a very real prospect of getting relegated. There has however been a small but noticeable change in the mood of the board since the Arsenal game, entirely in keeping with the fact it was a very good result, a good performance and something which should lift the hopes that we might get out of this...but still remembering we are still up against it.

But what's even worse than people moaning about hoofball and moaning about the current situation, is people moaning about other people moaning. That is something we're seeing increasingly on this board and is arguably far more detrimental to the board.

[Andy]

What's 'conspiracy theory' about taking a couple of points from a potential 30-odd??

We've been largely awful under Kean, with few glimpses of progress scattered in there - that's why people are MOANING.

[Amo]

I don't buy into all the conspiracy theories. There's no doubt there's been a few posts on the wrong side of hysterical.

A few? Don't make me laugh.

People moaning about "hoofball" under Allardyce and making unrealistic demands and expectations like you and others did on numerous occasions when we were doing very well as a football club is FAR worse than people moaning on here when we haven't won since January, are still second bottom of the form table and have a very real prospect of getting relegated. There has however been a small but noticeable change in the mood of the board since the Arsenal game, entirely in keeping with the fact it was a very good result, a good performance and something which should lift the hopes that we might get out of this...but still remembering we are still up against it.

Unrealistic demands? You mean like playing with pace and not reverting to hoofball at every opportunity? You're right... that's asking for the moon.

But what's even worse than people moaning about hoofball and moaning about the current situation, is people moaning about other people moaning. That is something we're seeing increasingly on this board and is arguably far more detrimental to the board.

People have little choice when the constant bitch-fest has soured the entire tone of the forum.

[Mattyblue]

Unrealistic demands? You mean like playing with pace and not reverting to hoofball at every opportunity? You're right... that's asking for the moon.

Aye, 'play with pace', that#s all you ever asked, don't make me laugh!

[Amo]

Aye, 'play with pace', that#s all you ever asked, don't make me laugh!

Why do you think I kept on about giving Hoilett a proper shot?

We never got out of first-gear under Sam, which is why we were stuck playing the same old 'hit and hope' football.

PS.

Thanks for dragging me into this debate, again. I'm sure it's just so folks like TGM, Theno & Jim can post their pre-scripted rebuttals.

[tony gale's mic]

A few? Don't make me laugh.

Unrealistic demands? You mean like playing with pace and not reverting to hoofball at every opportunity? You're right... that's asking for the moon.

People have little choice when the constant bitch-fest has soured the entire tone of the forum.

"Playing with pace" :lol: Playing with pace is only possible when you have players who are pacy and effective. Players who are pacy and effective generally cost more money than players who are strong in the tackle. If you don't have players who are pacy you won't play with pace. Yes we had Hoilett and Olsson. Hoilett was given more than enough chances by Allardyce but has only recently started to produce the goods - which is to be expected since he only made his debut at the start of last season and is only 20. Olsson came through quite well under Sam but one pacy player doesn't make a pacy team.

So yes, another idiotic and unrealistic expectation, and given we finished 10th under Sam, I'm not sure how much higher in the league you think this pacy football would have got us.

The "constant bitch fest" as you call it is a very natural response that fans of any club would have, when they see their team go from one which achieved four top 10 finishes in the last five years and which was one of the best-run in the country, to one with owners that are now the butt of many a joke - and quite rightly so.

Why do you think I kept on about giving Hoilett a proper shot?

We never got out of first-gear under Sam, which is why we were stuck playing the same old 'hit and hope' football.

PS.

Thanks for dragging me into this debate, again. I'm sure it's just so folks like TGM, Theno & Jim can post their pre-scripted rebuttals.

I thought I made you look like enough of a fool when I clearly demonstrated Sam DID give Hoilett more than a proper shot. But yet you're the one still posting the same pre scripted bullshit. TWENTY SEVEN appearances last season, including twenty four in the league.

Sure, a lot of them would have been as substitute but if he'd been upto it last season, we would have seen enough in those substitute appearances (a lot of them he came on with half an hour or so to go) to then warrant a regular run in the first team. But he was mostly ineffectual - no shame for a 19 year old playing his first season at the top level - and has grown as a player and is now coming into his own.

[thenodrog]

Ever moan about Allardyce and hoofball Topman?

Game set and match to Den.

[John]

There's moaning and there's MOANING.

We aren't dead and buried, the league is wide open with plenty good teams underachieving, and the manager & the players are up for the fight. Some of the scaremongering on this forum over the last few months has been downright embarrassing - especially from people old enough to know better.

You are making it sound like we potentially have an exciting end to the season.

Granted we could end up doing well this season, however given our form since January you can only expect most fans to be worried.

In our last 2-3 performances we have seen the players up the ante in terms of fight and commitment, however, most importantly it is remains to be seen whether the manager can actually win football matches.

[JAL]

You are making it sound like we potentially have an exciting end to the season.

Granted we could end up doing well this season, however given our form since January you can only expect most fans to be worried.

In our last 2-3 performances we have seen the players up the ante in terms of fight and commitment, however, most importantly it is remains to be seen whether the manager can actually win football matches.

The conclusion is that the current bunch of Blackburn Rovers players are carrying Steve Kean, when it should be the other way round.

He cant carry on come the summer.

[yeti-dog]

The conclusion is that the current bunch of Blackburn Rovers players are carrying Steve Kean, when it should be the other way round.

He cant carry on come the summer.

Err..and how do you reach that 'conclusion'. Why let the facts get in the way of your agenda eh?

Perhaps the players do enjoy playing for Kean,or id it heretical to suggest such a thing?

[John]

The players can enjoy playing for Kean, they can have the best training sessions of their life under him - however what ultimately matters is picking up points and winning enough football matches (if we want to stay in the Premier League that is).

[yeti-dog]

Absolutely John..winning and staying up are the priority. If they genuinely do enjoy playing for him this gives us half a chance.

[tony gale's mic]

The players can enjoy playing for Kean and still be "carrying" him, the two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[yeti-dog]

The players can enjoy playing for Kean and still be "carrying" him, the two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps,but very hard to quantify.

[JAL]

Err..and how do you reach that 'conclusion'. Why let the facts get in the way of your agenda eh?

Perhaps the players do enjoy playing for Kean,or id it heretical to suggest such a thing?

The only agenda has to be for a better Blackburn Rovers ! thats what the great John Lewis would wish and want for.

[modes98]

Absolutely John..winning and staying up are the priority. If they genuinely do enjoy playing for him this gives us half a chance.

It's not about enjoying playing or training for someone. It's about respect. Do you think players enjoy Sir Alex's tough training sessions or Mourinho takes real on a jolly to dubai when they are playing awful? Workng hard for a manager they respect and who's judgement is sound should be enough for any player.

Managers are paid to get a job done and not be the players best mate and let them off with light training or even just rubbish training because we don't have the coaches with the necessary skills to do the job.

If we stay up it will be because of others inept performances and not our hard work. Since January the players have shown little intensity or desire to perform for Kean or the club. Suddenly the threat of relegation has called them to arms and they are organising themselves to prevail.

[yeti-dog]

Sorry,but I don't buy that enjoying playing for someone can't be relevant...hence the oft used cliche..'lost the players',that would be far more worrying to me.

[tony gale's mic]

"Playing with pace" :lol: Playing with pace is only possible when you have players who are pacy and effective. Players who are pacy and effective generally cost more money than players who are strong in the tackle. If you don't have players who are pacy you won't play with pace. Yes we had Hoilett and Olsson. Hoilett was given more than enough chances by Allardyce but has only recently started to produce the goods - which is to be expected since he only made his debut at the start of last season and is only 20. Olsson came through quite well under Sam but one pacy player doesn't make a pacy team.

So yes, another idiotic and unrealistic expectation, and given we finished 10th under Sam, I'm not sure how much higher in the league you think this pacy football would have got us.

The "constant bitch fest" as you call it is a very natural response that fans of any club would have, when they see their team go from one which achieved four top 10 finishes in the last five years and which was one of the best-run in the country, to one with owners that are now the butt of many a joke - and quite rightly so.

I thought I made you look like enough of a fool when I clearly demonstrated Sam DID give Hoilett more than a proper shot. But yet you're the one still posting the same pre scripted bullshit. TWENTY SEVEN appearances last season, including twenty four in the league.

Sure, a lot of them would have been as substitute but if he'd been upto it last season, we would have seen enough in those substitute appearances (a lot of them he came on with half an hour or so to go) to then warrant a regular run in the first team. But he was mostly ineffectual - no shame for a 19 year old playing his first season at the top level - and has grown as a player and is now coming into his own.

Well, Topman?

Are you going to reply to this? Or are you going to do what you usually do, let it die down, then after a certain amount of time repeat the same old rubbish that Sam was at fault for the team not playing "pacy" football, or claim that he didn't give Hoilett enough of a chance?

This proves that you moaning about other people moaning about Rovers' current plight is utterly hypocritical, considering some of the things you used to moan about when Sam was in charge.

[patrickvalery]

Well, Topman?

Are you going to reply to this? Or are you going to do what you usually do, let it die down, then after a certain amount of time repeat the same old rubbish that Sam was at fault for the team not playing "pacy" football, or claim that he didn't give Hoilett enough of a chance?

This proves that you moaning about other people moaning about Rovers' current plight is utterly hypocritical, considering some of the things you used to moan about when Sam was in charge.

I'll take the opportunity if i may?

You make some very valid points about the number of apperances Hoilett made last year. But, as you also state, many were substitue appearances, often little more than 5 or 10 minutes. Extremely difficult to impose yourself on a game in that time frame.

Also, there has been a noticable shift in style of play. Our wider players seem to be receiving balls to their feet more frequently nowadays. This suits the likes of Hoilett because be has a low center of gravity and is able to shift the ball one way or the other as the situation dictates. Unfortunately, young Jnr was never likely to flourish when being asked to utilise that pace chasing balls over the top. He simply isn't strong enough to out muscle most fullbacks. Its far easier to defend against balls over the top as its simply getting the line right. Drop a little deeper and you can essentially nulify the threat.

I don't want to speak for Topman as i'm sure he is more than capable of replying himself. But i read his comments to mean under Sam we didn't use what little pace we actually had to good effect. Be it Hoilett or Olsson.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the price of pace and the price of strength in the tackle or athleticism. Players who are quick and possess the required skill set to use it properly, cost significantly more. Its a no brainer. I think Sam should be appluaded for the way he played to his strengths. Both in terms of what he had in the squad, and what his transfer budgets would allow. I've said many times, there is no shame in that. But, if we are likely to have more in terms of transfer budgets now, then a pacey style is no bad thing to implement. Redknapp's football philosophy is largely based around this concept and he's done OK.

If you strip away the arguments over who is and isn't an Allardyce hater, then i think most sound minded people would agree that Kean has been too quick in trying to implement wholesale changes. I'm all for a move away from hoofball (as successful as it was). A more attractive brand of football can be effective. Look no further than Coyle down the road. But all too often we have been a little too gung ho. The Liverpool match was an excellent balance for me. But in truth, i think most people agree that a more subtle change over a 12 month period would have been a safer bet.

[otto man]

Ottoman since you take such issue with my vocabulary (words) I have placed in brackets simplified (easy) words so hopefully you can better understand what I write.

So I say he needs to control as many as possible and then list the ones he can???? What's wrong with that? I took the ones listed by Gumboots read them through (something you might like to start doing) and listed the ones I believe a manager can influence and so consequently (as a result) you can gain an element (some) of (if you've used some ottoman ignore the "of" so as to avoid confusion) control. The better the person at doing so, surely the more control one has?

But no you sit down read something completely different about me claiming that Kean can control refreeing decisions and the weather and proceed to spout garbage (the stuff that comes out of your mouth). At the end of the day ottoman I meet my targets at work easily and so don't have to be worried about being judged harshly as I perform as I claim I can. Kean claimed top 10 at worst and we do not look anything like a team heading for the top ten at present, do we? So if say I was only performing to 50% or so of what I stated I would achieve, then yes I'd expect to by now considering it's been 8 games and almost 3 months (IE 1/4 of a working year or for kean 1/3 of a working year) then yes by now I'd have had the hairdryer treatment and told to sort myself out. And rightly so.

I get judged at work on my results, just as everyone in the whole world does ottoman. If a call centre agent has to hit 100 sales a month and in the interview for the job says "I can do that easy" and then 2.5 months down the line he's making 50 and everyone else is hitting their targets, do you give them employee of the month, no. You get a three month trial period and for me that me's it's time for a parting of the ways. At rovers we reward such astounding (very good) achievements (is that word OK? or should I use stuff?) with unsackable 3 year contracts which will most likely make said individual (man) a millionaire (rich)?

Kean hasn't won a game since Jan 23rd or 8 games for you ottoman to make it simple. And given the teams we have played I do not deem that acceptable (alright) given his claims of where we would finish.

Touched a nerve there then! Go back read it again. Only one of us(more than one) is spouting( putting forth) Rubbish(Garbage) and it's not me!

[PAFELL]

I'll take the opportunity if i may?

You make some very valid points about the number of apperances Hoilett made last year. But, as you also state, many were substitue appearances, often little more than 5 or 10 minutes. Extremely difficult to impose yourself on a game in that time frame.

Also, there has been a noticable shift in style of play. Our wider players seem to be receiving balls to their feet more frequently nowadays. This suits the likes of Hoilett because be has a low center of gravity and is able to shift the ball one way or the other as the situation dictates. Unfortunately, young Jnr was never likely to flourish when being asked to utilise that pace chasing balls over the top. He simply isn't strong enough to out muscle most fullbacks. Its far easier to defend against balls over the top as its simply getting the line right. Drop a little deeper and you can essentially nulify the threat.

I don't want to speak for Topman as i'm sure he is more than capable of replying himself. But i read his comments to mean under Sam we didn't use what little pace we actually had to good effect. Be it Hoilett or Olsson.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the price of pace and the price of strength in the tackle or athleticism. Players who are quick and possess the required skill set to use it properly, cost significantly more. Its a no brainer. I think Sam should be appluaded for the way he played to his strengths. Both in terms of what he had in the squad, and what his transfer budgets would allow. I've said many times, there is no shame in that. But, if we are likely to have more in terms of transfer budgets now, then a pacey style is no bad thing to implement. Redknapp's football philosophy is largely based around this concept and he's done OK.

If you strip away the arguments over who is and isn't an Allardyce hater, then i think most sound minded people would agree that Kean has been too quick in trying to implement wholesale changes. I'm all for a move away from hoofball (as successful as it was). A more attractive brand of football can be effective. Look no further than Coyle down the road. But all too often we have been a little too gung ho. The Liverpool match was an excellent balance for me. But in truth, i think most people agree that a more subtle change over a 12 month period would have been a safer bet.

In my view a good post. Kean has been able to bring the best out of Hoilett and Olsson. Putting aside the timming or how Keans appointment was done, as that has been debated to death and the clock is not going to be turned back. We were all surprised at Keans appointment, but it has been done.

Often in life I have been in situations where somebody has made a decision that I considered daft or strange at the time. Yet I choose to wait and see how things pan out. Often been surprised at the result.

I suppose somebody coming into any job for the first time needs time. Time to get used to the job, to make their mark and to learn by any mistakes they make. Managing a premier football club is a bit different because everything you do is viewed publicly. The results of your work is seen by all. There is a lot more scurtinty by many avenues, plus of course dealing with the media.

I decided to see how Kean did at the beginning. When things started to go badly wrong and I had the fear Rovers would be relegated, I was in the Kean out brigade. But the owners have said, rightly or wrongly that Kean is staying. Therefore I suggest we all have to support the manager as that will be helpful to the players and the club. I was at the Fulham game and was able to have a good converstion with one of the players. The players support kean, mainly because he lets them have a say and he listens to them. Which was different to the way Sam did things. Sam's way was "we do it this way and that is my way".

With 7 games to go, we must all support the manager for the sake of the club. If the players are behind him, then so should we be.

The style is different, the players seem to have more freedom on the pitch. So my stance is that I go with the flow for the sake of the club as a whole - because we have no choice. Who knows depending on how well the team plays for the rest of the season and the results from now on, we may all warm to Kean being the manager.

[Mattyblue]

In the short term the players are adopting a siege mentality, however long term this ' let the players have their say' approach doesn't argur well...