[Archived] EDL demonstration in Blackburn

[rowz]

Seperate issue.

btw battery farms are due to be ended 31/12/11.... Not that that's anything to do with the production of chicken meat.

battery farms - the solution to the energy needs of the world

[thenodrog]

If that was anything to go by Blackburn is definitely a place to avoid, not that you'd be going anyway

Correct. Although I may be persuaded otherwise should the Police require the services of a sniper from the library roof.

[Wilky]

Whilst I'm no fan of the vast majority of oragnised religions, I think it's very important people are able to openly express whatever they believe in. Be that one god, many gods, an alien called Xenu or Keith Andrews. Sure, I think there should be some limitation on how this belief can be expressed especially with a view to attempt to indoctrinate others (doubly so children), but if people need feel they are unable to devise their own moral code, they should be allowed to adopt another's

I'm suddenly reminded of this quote

so by your idealolgy people should be free to beleive in peadophillia, rapism and murder?

[Glenn]

so by your idealolgy people should be free to beleive in peadophillia, rapism and murder?

That's not actually what I said. Ideology, belief and law have to work in conjunction with each other, religion, belief or ideology should not supersede law, nor should law be above being questioned and besides, should they be allowed to believe in it, but not act on that belief, then actually yes, you can't actually control what people believe only influence what they do.

[Wilky]

That's not actually what I said. Ideology, belief and law have to work in conjunction with each other, religion, belief or ideology should not supersede law, nor should law be above being questioned and besides, should they be allowed to believe in it, but not act on that belief, then actually yes, you can't actually control what people believe only influence what they do.

yes but u said u beleive people should be able to express what they beleive... u cant say ok u can beleive in that but not that... its like telling jokes... oh u can joke about white people but not blacks or muzzys...

now u see religion breeds peados, rapists and murders... remove religion out of society and thats half of the battle gone... religion is a pile of crap..

I knew a guy once who believed in the devil... he got sectioned under the mental health act as his beliefs didn't fit in with society... yet millions of of people can beleive in a fictitious character by the name of god and everything is ok? some of these people who believe in god are really weird and think they are on a different realm, especially those Americans... Islam is the most controlling of all.. men have full control over the women... yes its pretty much like that in all religions but Islamics take it a step too far.

before anyone starts I'm fully against all religions, especially Islam... I'm fully and openly an religionist... if that makes me racist in your eyes then wake up... I'm against all religions, nut a breed of people or one religion inperticular.. it just so happens that Islamics seem to think they can take over the world... and to a certain extent they

[Glenn]

yes but u said u beleive people should be able to express what they beleive...

Indeed, but being the wet liberal I am, I believe somebody should be allowed to tell me that they think something I find repulsive is acceptable and potentially convince my otherwise. However if they break the law in expressing those belief, they get punished. If they convince enough people, then the law changes. It's quite a simple system.

u cant say ok u can beleive in that but not that... its like telling jokes... oh u can joke about white people but not blacks or muzzys...

You're right, I can't say that, mainly because I can't make it into a sentence. I think you'll find my beliefs on what is acceptable is pretty even regardless of topic or terminology. One thing I do believe in, something can only be truly offensive if it was intended to be offensive, anything less is just insensitive.

now u see religion breeds peados, rapists and murders...

Citation needed. I believe people are pre-disposed to do such things and only use religion as a way of justifying or excusing them.

remove religion out of society and thats half of the battle gone... religion is a pile of crap..

In a lot of ways I agree with that. But is the answer outlawing it, will people be any less likely to behave like that, or will they just find something different to blame it on ?

I knew a guy once who believed in the devil... he got sectioned under the mental health act as his beliefs didn't fit in with society... yet millions of of people can beleive in a fictitious character by the name of god and everything is ok? some of these people who believe in god are really weird and think they are on a different realm, especially those Americans... Islam is the most controlling of all.. men have full control over the women... yes its pretty much like that in all religions but Islamics take it a step too far.

The only reason he was sectioned was his belief in the devil? That's that vast majority of non-atheists buggered then as most religions have some kind of devil equivalent. As for the rest, yep I pretty much agree, but we're not arguing about organised religions, we're arguing about people's right to believe.

before anyone starts I'm fully against all religions, especially Islam... I'm fully and openly an religionist... if that makes me racist in your eyes then wake up... I'm against all religions, nut a breed of people or one religion inperticular.. it just so happens that Islamics seem to think they can take over the world... and to a certain extent they

... and by tying together race and religion, you've complete removed the validity of your argument. I don't consider you a racist, I do consider you to want to limit peoples freedom to believe in whatever they want, which isn't something I think is a good thing. I'd be particularly interested to hear your views on Buddhism, what about pagans?

The commonly quoted "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." can be applied to religous beliefs too,

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

By all accounts the Muslim Defence League will be present...should make for a very lively Saturday afternoon around the 'owd town.

[Rovermatt]

This the sort of people you support Theno?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0u-sv13C0g&feature=related

I'm shocked...

[Wilky]

Indeed, but being the wet liberal I am, I believe somebody should be allowed to tell me that they think something I find repulsive is acceptable and potentially convince my otherwise. However if they break the law in expressing those belief, they get punished. If they convince enough people, then the law changes. It's quite a simple system.

You're right, I can't say that, mainly because I can't make it into a sentence. I think you'll find my beliefs on what is acceptable is pretty even regardless of topic or terminology. One thing I do believe in, something can only be truly offensive if it was intended to be offensive, anything less is just insensitive.

Citation needed. I believe people are pre-disposed to do such things and only use religion as a way of justifying or excusing them.

In a lot of ways I agree with that. But is the answer outlawing it, will people be any less likely to behave like that, or will they just find something different to blame it on ?

The only reason he was sectioned was his belief in the devil? That's that vast majority of non-atheists buggered then as most religions have some kind of devil equivalent. As for the rest, yep I pretty much agree, but we're not arguing about organised religions, we're arguing about people's right to believe.

... and by tying together race and religion, you've complete removed the validity of your argument. I don't consider you a racist, I do consider you to want to limit peoples freedom to believe in whatever they want, which isn't something I think is a good thing. I'd be particularly interested to hear your views on Buddhism, what about pagans?

The commonly quoted "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." can be applied to religous beliefs too,

is pagans a religion?

I hate on all religion... no matter what religion it is... if its connected with any sort of god then I will preach my hate...

scientology can be tolerated as its more of a joke type religion, plus I beleive in aliens... but I wouldn't take that religion seriously either...

[jim mk2]

Correct. Although I may be persuaded otherwise should the Police require the services of a sniper from the library roof.

Should this be tolerated on a football messageboard ?

This is yet another thread being subverted by Gordon to promote his bigoted anti Asian / Islamist views.

Time for the moderators to take action.

[cletus]

The choice is still there, there's a non Halal KFC at Accy and one out Samlesbury way and as I said having a KFC isn't a God given right, don'tlike Halal chicken? Don't go to that KFC.

See I didn't think it was about the choice I thought it was an animal cruelty thing?

I can understand if people are animal cruelty protesters in all scenarios but I imagine that isn't the case here, the whole thing just seems a bit pointless to me.

What if i lived up near the KFC & don`t drive? I should be able to order a non-halal kentucky meal from any KFC. The choice has been taken away from the indigenous population in favour of the muslim population of the town.

They (KFC) should have the menu option of ordering halal or non-halal upon request.

[Glenn]

is pagans a religion?

By most definitions, all forms of Paganism can be classified a religion, of sorts (though it tends to be stereotyped as hippies worshipping the earth). Buddhism whilst classed as a religion is more of a philosophy and sees thinking about such things as whether there is an all-seeing omnipotent creator as simply a waste of time (I like Buddhism, out of all form of mainstream ogranised religions, it's the one I have least problem with, it boils down to the phrase, as Bill & Ted said, "Be excellent to each other").

I hate on all religion... no matter what religion it is... if its connected with any sort of god then I will preach my hate...

You're mistaking hate with ignorance, as as I've just shown, religion needs no deity. But you're missing the big point here, which is I actually support your right to preach your anti-religion message, just as I believe people have a right to ignore you and believe in what they wish.

scientology can be tolerated as its more of a joke type religion, plus I beleive in aliens... but I wouldn't take that religion seriously either...

I hope that was an attempt to be flippant, because whilst I believe Scientologists have a right to believe they've descended from aliens (something they won't believe until they've poured millions into the ultimate bait and switch scam) and even do want their want with their money, the religion itself is far from a joke, it targets the weak, feeble and troubled and exploits them for money (a bit like mediums, only with a better marketing plan).  If the internet has been responsible for one thing, it's been the exposing exactly how Scientology actually works and it's far from a religion. If you genuinely think Scientology is a joke then take some time reading www.xenu.net.

Edit - There is actually a Q in the FAQ on xenu.net that explain my position on both Scientology and religion in general rather well.

"Why do you hate Scientology?"

First of all we need to agree on the terms used Scientology is the belief or the doctrine of the Scientology "technology" or "religion", while Church of Scientology is the organisation.People should be free to believe whatever they want, including Scientology.

What I have against the Church of Scientology (CoS) is its deceitfulness, its lack of compassion for its members (especially the hard-working staff), its aggressive hard sell, its arrogance, its attack on free speech, its litigiousness, its harassment of its critics, its lack of concern for families, its gross neglect and abuse of children, etc.Hate is a destructive emotion, I strive to be constructive. My opposition to CoS is based on rational investigation of available information, not emotions. Trying to challenge people's minds by using free speech and respecting them as fellow humans is what I believe brings peace in the long run. It does not start anywhere else but with myself. But respecting or tolerating the opinions of others does not mean one either has to agree or suppress one's disagreement. The freedom to stand up and express critical opinions and views is what makes human thought evolve and is the core of what I consider my moral and ethical guidelines The Human Rights as defined by the United Nations.

Read the documentation I have made available on Operation Clambake and decide for yourself whether my concerns about CoS are justified or not.

[cletus]

Talking of religion, the 'Frank Skinner Opinionated' show last night had a druid in the audience. Apparently druids have been living & practicing in Britain since way before any other religion (over 2000yrs) & have only recently been officially recognised.

....& Winston Churchill was a druid

....& Bill Roach (Ken Barlow)

[Glenn]

Should this be tolerated on a football messageboard ?

This is yet another thread being subverted by Gordon to promote his bigoted anti Asian / Islamist views.

Time for the moderators to take action.

I believe Thenodrog has been pretty clear that he feels equally about all three parties involved.

[Glenn]

They (KFC) should have the menu option of ordering halal or non-halal upon request.

Why? Surely it's up to the restaurant what they serve? As long as people are aware of what they are buying it should up to them what they choose to sell. I agree there should be debate on the ethics of Halal meat preparation, but until such time as it's outlawed, shops should be free to sell whatever they want.

Now, if KFC were clever, they WOULD offer both options an potentially get custom from both groups.

[Tom]

What if i lived up near the KFC & don`t drive? I should be able to order a non-halal kentucky meal from any KFC. The choice has been taken away from the indigenous population in favour of the muslim population of the town.

They (KFC) should have the menu option of ordering halal or non-halal upon request.

I can't argue with you there and have no wish to I simply don't see it is as a huge issue.

Last year I saw adverts for a new burger at KFC, I popped up one day for one on my lunch and got told they aren't doing it due to it containing bacon, I had a bit of a sulk but got over it.

I never did get to try that burger though

[OhmiBRFC]

What if i lived up near the KFC & don`t drive? I should be able to order a non-halal kentucky meal from any KFC. The choice has been taken away from the indigenous population in favour of the muslim population of the town.

They (KFC) should have the menu option of ordering halal or non-halal upon request.

You have a choice. Don't go to KFC.

[Steve Moss]

I asked you a question Theno and nowhere have I accused you of being a "raging Nazi activist"so don't bluster or try to bully me. Much of what you say above is undeniable except for the "freedom of speech' bit. It seems to me that the EDL have a bit too much freedom of speech to insult other races and religions. And "yes" the same goes for Abu Hanza (sp?). Isn't he in clink awaiting deportation for exceeding his rights to freedom of speech? I don't suppose you want the laws changing to assist him?

The answer is not less freedom of speech, but more of it. The more the imbeciles are allowed to talk, the quicker they can be identified as idiots.

Why are people so one sided against the EDL but not the Muslim extremists?

. . .

Theno has it spot on here, it's a case of idiots v idiots.

I think some label under the old "burdens" where deference must be given to select groups as oppressed minorities. The EDL don't fall into that classification so its a lot easier to criticze them.

Which is in a way a shame. The more bogotry, anger, hatred, etc. is suppressed, the more likely it will eventually explode. IMO, people should be able to call anyone anything under the sun. Let them get it out of their system and, perhaps, mass murder and maimings can be avoided. Better, integration may be more likely, not less likely, by fewer restrictions.

Correction Wilky.... imo it's any religion that promotes life after death and where people are brainwashed from an early age to require some imaginary friend as a crutch to get through life.

I'm a Christian. And I have faith that you are 100% wrong.

Having said that, you are 100% entitled to your opinion and may express it as frequently as you like in whatever form that you like, so long as you stop short of harming or threatening to harm me, others and our property, private and public. If not, then all bets are off.

One good thing about being a Christian is that its ok to be a bad one so long as you make some effort to be a better one. After all, he forgives.

[Stuart]

Edit - There is actually a Q in the FAQ on xenu.net that explain my position on both Scientology and religion in general rather well.

Quote

"Why do you hate Scientology?"

First of all we need to agree on the terms used Scientology is the belief or the doctrine of the Scientology "technology" or "religion", while Church of Scientology is the organisation.People should be free to believe whatever they want, including Scientology.

What I have against the Church of Scientology (CoS) is its deceitfulness, its lack of compassion for its members (especially the hard-working staff), its aggressive hard sell, its arrogance, its attack on free speech, its litigiousness, its harassment of its critics, its lack of concern for families, its gross neglect and abuse of children, etc.Hate is a destructive emotion, I strive to be constructive. My opposition to CoS is based on rational investigation of available information, not emotions. Trying to challenge people's minds by using free speech and respecting them as fellow humans is what I believe brings peace in the long run. It does not start anywhere else but with myself. But respecting or tolerating the opinions of others does not mean one either has to agree or suppress one's disagreement. The freedom to stand up and express critical opinions and views is what makes human thought evolve and is the core of what I consider my moral and ethical guidelines The Human Rights as defined by the United Nations.

Read the documentation I have made available on Operation Clambake and decide for yourself whether my concerns about CoS are justified or not.

The bit underlined and in bold is what I would call "the rub" in all the religious and racial debates (and they are linked - even though entirely different). People are discouraged, nay, expected not to talk about religious or racial differences for fear of being deemed intolerant or racist.

Great point by Steve Moss (as usual):

"IMO, people should be able to call anyone anything under the sun. Let them get it out of their system and, perhaps, mass murder and maimings can be avoided. Better, integration may be more likely, not less likely, by fewer restrictions."

Although I should add that people need to be able to listen to what is being said and allowed the right of reply - and this process aka "talking" might actually help... (I know, it's ground-breaking!)

[broadsword]

You have a choice. Don't go to KFC.

amen to that brother

[dopper69]

As has been said, whether it be EDL or MDL the protests will attract idiots on each side

Edit - and as for Religion. I truly cannot even begin to comprehend what would enable someone to believe in an almighty being. Its ludicrous and belongs in a time when the earth was flat.

[Stuart]

As has been said, whether it be EDL or MDL the protests will attract idiots on each side

Edit - and as for Religion. I truly cannot even begin to comprehend what would enable someone to believe in an almighty being. Its ludicrous and belongs in a time when the earth was flat.

I thought scientists decided the earth was flat!

[sambo]

Should this be tolerated on a football messageboard ?

This is yet another thread being subverted by Gordon to promote his bigoted anti Asian / Islamist views.

Time for the moderators to take action.

Where does he do that?

Don't let your obsessive hatred for Gordon get in the way of the facts...

He showed disdain for all sides, not just the Muslims.

You just want any excuse to criticise.

Grow up

[dopper69]

I thought scientists decided the earth was flat!

There must have been no decent 'thinkers' left after the Church started burning the all then

[cletus]

You have a choice. Don't go to KFC.

I don`t

Never really rated the stuff anyway. It always looks great on the tv ads, but have always felt let down when you real thing is put infront of me

I just don`t agree with 'choice' being taken away from people. I`m not a smoker, but i feel the same way about the smoking ban. The British public should`ve been given a chance to choose whether they want to frequent a smoking pub or non-smoking pub.

Anyway, is anybody actually gonna take part or watch the protests in Blackburn this next weekend? I know people who are going down...mainly just to be nosey.