[Archived] Alternative Vote

[Mattyblue]

If you cant engage them and convince them to vote then the jobs not done.

'tis a Murdock conspiracy

[LeChuck]

If you cant engage them and convince them to vote then the jobs not done.

With all the political revolutions going on in the world at the moment, it's not unreasonable to expect people to enthuse themselves, rather than expecting to be spoon fed. It costs a lot of money to campaign in the mass media, but there is plenty of information around if people want it.

Maybe I should just follow Waggy's example and get out.

[Mattyblue]

With all the political revolutions going on in the world at the moment, it's not unreasonable to expect people to enthuse themselves, rather than expecting to be spoon fed. It costs a lot of money to campaign in the mass media, but there is plenty of information around if people want it.

Maybe I should just follow Waggy's example and get out.

If the opinion polls were pointing heavily to a YES vote, would you be complaining about people not being enthused? Or would you be happy as you would be getting the result you wanted?

By the same token if the result is NO in a free and fair national referendum? You have to accept it.

[LeChuck]

By the same token if the result is NO in a free and fair national referendum? You have to accept it.

I never said it wasn't free and fair, I just despair at the people in this country sometimes, especially when contrasted to elsewhere in the world.

I'm not saying everyone should vote yes, everyone should vote how they feel, but a lot of the reasons for voting no are ridiculous. I'm not including people here who have taken time to put well-thought arguments against it, I'm on about the ones who'll read the Sun and vote no because they think they're 'sticking it to Clegg'...or 'the average person' as Ste put it.

[jim mk2]

how many people today will vote no because "I don't like that Nick Clegg got into bed with the Tories and didn't do what he'd promissed he do if they got into power"?

I suspect alot of people will do that, especially students, but Clegg has only himself to blame for consorting with the devil.

I read today Cameron was warned by senior Tory hierarchy his position as PM would be under threat if he lost the AV vote, which probably explains Cameron's refusal to condemn some of the wilder claims made by the No campaign. The Tories are obviously worried about this vote.

[Paul]

If the public votes down AV, it's not the system that's broken (in fact, for a two horse race, like a referendum, FPTP is great), but that doesn't stopped me being disillusioned at people who voted for something based on weak arguments or a lack of understanding (I've still yet to hear a convincing No argument). Whilst I disagree with his decision, Paul has my upmost respect for taking the time to learn about what he's voting on and has decided that as he is neither for or against it, has decided not to vote (on the referendum, I assume he's still voting in the locals), but how many people today will vote no because "I don't like that Nick Clegg got into bed with the Tories and didn't do what he'd promissed he do if they got into power"?

Thank you Glenn. I will be voting in the locals and I am beginning to wonder if I should vote "Yes" in the referendum - based on the arguments put forward by a bunch of anonymous people on a football MB, rather than the very poor efforts of the actual campaigners. While I think Nick Clegg has let down his party, supporters and those who voted for him I wouldn't vote "No" on the basis of giving him a bloody nose, he's probably going to get that in the locals anyway.

My big concern is I still don't understand the likely impact in a General Election. If it means another coalition of this sort I will have helped bring about a bloody awful government.

If you cant engage them and convince them to vote then the jobs not done.

Exactly and it is only in the last few hours I've begun to think of voting and then Yes - see above. I am sure jim is right when he says there has been plenty on the BBC and in the newspapers but I haven't encountered much myself. Those who want change have utterly failed to sell the idea to the nation as a whole, the result will probably be an apathetic No. If AV is good why is there no massive groundswell of opinion pushing it to victory?

I read today Cameron was warned by senior Tory hierarchy his position as PM would be under threat if he lost the AV vote,

Where's the polling station?

[Ste B]

I'm on about the ones who'll read the Sun and vote no because they think they're 'sticking it to Clegg'...or 'the average person' as Ste put it.

The vast majority of people will NOT vote in this referendum, we will be lucky to get around 30% turnout. This will probably help the yes campaign, as many of its supporters are more enthused than the "average person".

[jim mk2]

. I am sure jim is right when he says there has been plenty on the BBC and in the newspapers but I haven't encountered much myself.

Don't you listen to Radio 4 ?

The vast majority of people will NOT vote in this referendum, we will be lucky to get around 30% turnout. This will probably help the yes campaign, as many of its supporters are more enthused than the "average person".

Probably true. A beacon of hope for the Yes campaign compared to the opinion polls.

[Biddy]

People are complaining about a lack of information on the AV vote however I'm most appalled in my area about NO information at all on my local election candidates. I had a princely sum of 3 labour and 1 conservative to vote for with no other information other than their address. I've had to search for any information about them on the internet.

And they wonder why people are apathetic to voting.

I voted yes to AV even though PR should have been the real referendum. Will we ever see that as an option?

[Mattyblue]

I think it will be close, certainly nothing like 60/40.

The 'yes' voters will get down to the polling station in big numbers, the 'no' voters, not so sure...

[LeChuck]

The vast majority of people will NOT vote in this referendum, we will be lucky to get around 30% turnout. This will probably help the yes campaign, as many of its supporters are more enthused than the "average person".

Had it not coincided with local elections I would agree entirely.

[Glenn]

My big concern is I still don't understand the likely impact in a General Election. If it means another coalition of this sort I will have helped bring about a bloody awful government.

I can't found the link now, but I read a great article a few weeks ago that detailed that hung parliaments were the inevitable result of having more than two viable options to vote for everywhere, rather than it being the result of the voting system used and how over time and governments adjust to operating as a hung parliament, i.e. things start to actually go through on consensus rather than pre-alliance horse trading (as happened with the current coalition) and how different mixes of coalition every few years bring in more left/right policies depending on the mix.

Regarding the no2AV ads they are pushing out via Google seemingly everywhere today. Labour officially back Yes, so a whole "Vote Labour, Vote No to AV" campaign to confuse people seems rather unpleasant. I'm amazed Labour have allowed their name to be used in that way, to endorse something they are opposing (or they probably didn't, but by the time they got it to court, the damage would be done).

Shameless.

[Mattyblue]

'A majority of Labour MP's, Peers etc are against AV' it says on those ads, is that not the case Glenn?

Treading a fine line if that is incorrect.

[Glenn]

'A majority of Labour MP's, Peers etc are against AV' it says on those ads, is that not the case Glenn?

Treading a fine line if that is incorrect.

My mate is a Labour activist "grassroots campaigner" and he's saying that it's not just the official party line to vote Yes (in fact, it benefits Labour even more than the Lib Dems in many cases) but it's being pushed down the line to doorstep campaigners (which he is) pretty hard too (they've been leafleting and doorstepping for the Yes campaign).

The party is definitely behind it, are individual MP and Peers? Who knows, I somehow doubt they did an actual poll to find out (especially given some of the other easily disprovable "facts" on the website. I know SOME labour peers have come out against (one spoke alongside Cameron on it when he launched their No campaign), but I strongly suspect it's not the majority.

[Glenn]

Great, Blunkett's just admitted the No campaign lied and made up figures when a. It's too late to do anything about it and b. the Electoral Commision have just confirmed after Huhne's challenge of the numbers that the law only covers misleading candidates and not a referendum.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/05/campaign-figure-blunkett

[arachnica]

My mate is a Labour activist "grassroots campaigner" and he's saying that it's not just the official party line to vote Yes (in fact, it benefits Labour even more than the Lib Dems in many cases) but it's being pushed down the line to doorstep campaigners (which he is) pretty hard too (they've been leafleting and doorstepping for the Yes campaign).

The party is definitely behind it, are individual MP and Peers? Who knows, I somehow doubt they did an actual poll to find out (especially given some of the other easily disprovable "facts" on the website. I know SOME labour peers have come out against (one spoke alongside Cameron on it when he launched their No campaign), but I strongly suspect it's not the majority.

Over half of Labour's 258 MPs are signed up to the No campaign as are 80% of their councillors. Last count around 90 were signed up to the yes campaign..The official party line seems to mean very little.

http://www.labourlist.org/375-councillors-launch-vote-labour-vote-no-to-av

Pretty shoddy campaign on all sides.

Edit: Sorry Glenn - wrong figures - but the party is almost divided in half in Parliament

[Glenn]

oooh, do you have a link for that? It contradicts something I've just been given and I've love to know which is correct

[Glenn]

oooh, do you have a link for that? It contradicts something I've just been given and I've love to know which is correct

Found a list of 114, which is more than I thought, but still less than the > 50% some blogs and tabloids reported.

[arachnica]

On the positive side, good to see Jim support a voting system that would have given Thatcher an even bigger majority through the 80's!

[arachnica]

Found a list of 114, which is more than I thought, but still less than the > 50% some blogs and tabloids reported.

Think this is the most up to date list:

http://www.labourlist.org/labour-mps---are-they-yes-or-no-to-av

[Al]

I don't see this as a party political thing. More a case of using your common sense. I don't like hung parliaments and I don't want the second and third past the post to be elected so I have voted no.

[chaddyrovers]

i vote no!

I think each person should be allow only one vote each. You should pick your first choice and nothing else.

The reason why I think AV doesn't work is some people will only vote for one person or two and some will vote for 3 or 4 people in ranking system. My view is each person should have the same voting rights as everybody.

If we could come up with a voting system where everybody got 2 votes then fine but still some people will only vote once.

[Glenn]

I think Chaddy's post highlights the posters above that the attempt to inform people has been rubbish (this thread aside).

Everyone only gets one vote, it's just under AV if the result is close you get to say "ok, my favourite didn't get in, but out of the ones left, I'd prefer x". It's still only 1 vote. It's not like you get to vote for as many people as you like and all your votes count.

[Glenn]

I don't like hung parliaments

I can't see having anything else happening any more. Even with Lib Dem support falling, people are so disillusioned by the two major parties and traditional parental/peer influence on voting is now so weak that huge numbers now EXPECT a third option in votes. Once there is anything more than a notional third option, we'll get hung parliaments again, just as we already have under FPTP.

[bazza]

I was teetering towards voting Yes when I saw the headlines of the Daily Mail and the Sun telling me to vote No.

That settled it. Who do these media people think they are?

At least the Independent seemed to put forward arguments for both sides.

Result? A resounding Yes from me in the polling station.