[Archived] Sam Allardyce Messiah or simply a good manager?

[tony gale's mic]

I'd hazard a guess that they will both achieve more than Sam has at his age. For one they have both had much more 'desirable' jobs than Sam, whilst being 10 years younger.

Edit - and you never hear them banging on about guaranteed back to back BBVA titles if they were the manager of Real etc.

Yeah they don't like winding up the media quite as much.

Most managers won't get down to the last two for the England job, take a club from mid table obscurity in the league below to being the best team in the league over four seasons outside Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool.

For Hughes to achieve more than Sam he'll have to better his achievements at Rovers, because what Sam did at Bolton is even more impressive than what Hughes did with us. Sam didn't really get enough of a chance to carry on his good work with Rovers.

[dopper69]

Yeah they don't like winding up the media quite as much, but if they did you'd have the same old idiots like you quoting a tongue in cheek comment about 8 months later.

Most managers won't get down to the last two for the England job, take a club from mid table obscurity in the league below to being the best team in the league over four seasons outside Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool.

For Hughes to achieve more than Sam he'll have to better his achievements at Rovers, because what Sam did at Bolton is even more impressive than what Hughes did with us. Sam didn't really get enough of a chance to carry on his good work with Rovers.

Answer me this - if he is that good a manager, how did we manage to recruit him in our crisis moment?

[Majiball]

Au Contraire Roverthehill. One of the weaknesses of many on here was the belief that this squad could play entertaining football.

Haven't we been here once before?

Come on Den, that's akin to that advert with all the monkeys trying to make a perfect cup of coffee.

[RovertheHill]

Au Contraire Roverthehill. One of the weaknesses of many on here was the belief that this squad could play entertaining football.

Haven't we been here once before?

Well it's never dull at the moment is it Den

[tony gale's mic]

Answer me this - if he is that good a manager, how did we manage to recruit him in our crisis moment?

Sometimes very good managers can have bad times in their career. Is Roy Hodgson not a good manager despite everything he's achieved, when West Brom have had to recruit him in their crisis moment?

Now that I've answered your question, how about you answer mine. If Sam's not a good manager, how did he firstly get a mid table Bolton promoted, stabilise them in the league and then get them into a position where they were the best club outside the top four over four seasons or so?

How did he rescue Rovers from relegation, and then the following season get us into 10th, level on points with Birmingham in 9th, with the other clubs ahead of us ones with squads which had tens of millions more spent on them? Is that sustained success not the sign of a very good manager?

[RovertheHill]

how attractive I find Susan Boyle

Those of us with half a brain

I think what you're trying to say is that context is everything

[den]

Come on Den, that's akin to that advert with all the monkeys trying to make a perfect cup of coffee.

No more so than suggesting that many people thought there was no one else capable of managing Rovers Maj!

Anyway, I think I know your opinion and for what it's worth I can go along with a big part of it. For sure Sam could have encouraged a few short throw ins and a few short free kicks for starters. That's a long way from believing that he should be sacked though.

[dopper69]

Sometimes very good managers can have bad times in their career. Is Roy Hodgson not a good manager despite everything he's achieved, when West Brom have had to recruit him in their crisis moment?

Now that I've answered your question, how about you answer mine. If Sam's not a good manager, how did he firstly get a mid table Bolton promoted, stabilise them in the league and then get them into a position where they were the best club outside the top four over four seasons or so?

How did he rescue Rovers from relegation, and then the following season get us into 10th, level on points with Birmingham in 9th, with the other clubs ahead of us ones with squads which had tens of millions more spent on them? Is that sustained success not the sign of a very good manager?

There is no comparison between the respective CV's of Roy Hodgson and Sam Allardyce. Roy has managed at the very top level of the game, both internationally and domestically whilst Sam has managed..... erm Bolton.

You talk of sustained success, yet Sam's last two jobs have both ended with him getting the boot. He had his honeymoon period with Bolton for a couple of seasons (BTW I like how you missed out the 02 and 03 seasons, one of which Bolton were 2 points of being relegated) and that's it.

The man has done nothing before and nothing since to warrant this messiah like status that some on here give to him.

He is a competent manger. No more. no less.

[den]

There is no comparison between the respective CV's of Roy Hodgson and Sam Allardyce. Roy has managed at the very top level of the game, both internationally and domestically whilst Sam has managed..... erm Bolton.

I haven't been following your "discussions", so this might be out of context, but I know which one I would prefer as manager here - and to give you a clue, it isn't Hodgson.

[Majiball]

No more so than suggesting that many people thought there was no one else capable of managing Rovers Maj!

Anyway, I think I know your opinion and for what it's worth I can go along with a big part of it. For sure Sam could have encouraged a few short throw ins and a few short free kicks for starters. That's a long way from believing that he should be sacked though.

Your right, how true.

My bad for not reading the conversation through.

[tony gale's mic]

The clown only said they were tongue in cheek after the stick that all of the media gave him. Here is a BBC article with the conversation in it. It certainly doesn't sound tongue in cheek to me:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/b/blackburn_rovers/9009565.stm

In fact, I would not be surprised if JW and co had a word in his ear following his absurd 'I'm not suited to Blackburn / Bolton' comments.

I would argue this further but I couldn't really care less.

The fact you think some off hand remark Sam made is a relevant topic in the discussion about his managerial abilities says more about you than it does about our old manager.

There is no comparison between the respective CV's of Roy Hodgson and Sam Allardyce. Roy has managed at the very top level of the game, both internationally and domestically whilst Sam has managed..... erm Bolton.

But wait, you asked this question before after I'd explained what Sam had done with Bolton and Rovers:

Answer me this - if he is that good a manager, how did we manage to recruit him in our crisis moment?

It follows from that question that you thought to be a "good manager", you couldn't possibly be recruited by a struggling team.

Have you changed your mind in the last ten minutes on that, or did you just ask a really stupid question?

You talk of sustained success, yet Sam's last two jobs have both ended with him getting the boot. He had his honeymoon period with Bolton for a couple of seasons (BTW I like how you missed out the 02 and 03 seasons, one of which Bolton were 2 points of being relegated) and that's it.

So his tenure at Rovers wasn't a success? Getting Rovers from staring relegation in the face, to 10th in the league and then starting the first 16 games of this season in a similar vein? Finishing higher in the league than teams who had spent millions more? The decision to sack him can hardly be used against him, since a poll showed the vast majority of fans were against the decision.

He didn't really have long enough at Newcastle to be judged either way, but when he left the club (9 points from the drop zone), they were better placed than they were the previous season (5 points from relegation). His sacking kickstarted a slide which ended in relegation. Does that pattern look familiar to you?

And let's include the 02 and 03 seasons. Don't you think that bringing a team up from mid table what is now the Championship and managing to stay up for the next two seasons is an achievement in itself? Let's put the other subsequent successes to one side for a second. How does that get used in your idiotic arguments against him?

The man has done nothing before and nothing since to warrant this messiah like status that some on here give to him.

He is a competent manger. No more. no less.

So, just to sum up:

Did you change your mind about that question you asked, or do you admit now it was a stupid question?

Why did you use his sacking at Rovers against him when it was universally hailed as a terrible decision, the fans were against it and his time at Rovers was arguably a success?

Why even bring his Newcastle sacking into it, when that was also a pretty bad decision considering the club was doing better than it was both before his arrival and after his departure?

And surely keeping Bolton in the Premier League for two seasons after getting them promoted was a success, even before he managed to press on and lift the club to being the best side outside the top 4?

[Majiball]

If people had written Samities on their census forms then you'd all be part of an organised religion and the you could all worship your Messiah that way.

[Mattyblue]

The hardcore anti Sam brigade will NEVER admit their mistake.

Even Gav, who I have had many a debate with, accepts that he is a good manager, he just didn't like the fella or his approach.

The last, desperate arguments of dopper and his ilk, just end up being personal insults, jibes like 'Mr Bolton' and bringing up his off the cuff comments like Real Madrid (comments that had nowt to do with the job he was undertaking at Rovers).

You know then that the argument has been well and truly lost.

[imy9]

He's managed in this league for about a decade. The only time he's got a side involved in a relegation fight, even remotely threatened by the drop was in his first season after he got Bolton promoted. Considering when he took over Bolton were mid table in the league below, staying up that season was one hell of an achievement anyway

In 2001-2- Bolton in their first season finished 16th in the league 4 points off the relegation places.

In 2002-3- Bolton in their second season finished 17th in the league 2 points off the relegation places.

Is this the one season you are talking about Bolton narrowly avoided relegation? Also puts paid to the constant reminders that Bolton made progress year on year, they went BACK for the first two seasons.

They were 9th when he joined Bolton, my maths is not great but 9th out of 24 is comfortably top half rather than mid table.

[broadsword]

Anyone bored yet?

How much more mileage is there in this?

[dopper69]

Roy Hodgson is a good manager. His situation after leaving Liverpool is greatly different to that of Sam leaving Newcastle. Roy was back in the hot seat within a month, rather foolishly IMO as I feel he would have been better holding out for something in Europe. How long did it take the messiah to get his next job? 11 months? I wonder why that could have been?

How could such an excellent manager in at the peak of his capabilities be out of work for such a long time only to settle for a team looking towards the trap door . A manager with such prestigious teams as Limerick, Blackpool and Bolton on a trophy-less CV?

It must be a conspiracy between the BBC and FA. Or perhaps he just was not wanted?

We can debate it until we are both blue in the face but at the end of the day Sam's name will be resigned to the history books of past managers not great ones.

Also what is this continued obsession of yours with 'the best team outside the top 4' comment. Unless I'm mistaken the highest Bolton have finished is 6th?

As for the ad-hominem attacks, I really expected more from an established member of the board. Perhaps I should have known better?

[Mattyblue]

Once again, it is only the likes of you dopper calling him 'a messiah', we were just happy we had a good manager and unhappy with a reckless sacking- simple as that really.

[dopper69]

Once again, it is only the likes of you dopper calling him 'a messiah', we were just happy we had a good manager and unhappy with a reckless sacking- simple as that really.

But that is just the point. He is not a good manager, merely a competent one.

[broadsword]

So a good manager would've got us higher than 10th last year?

This is ridiculous.

[dopper69]

So a good manager would've got us higher than 10th last year?

This is ridiculous.

Hang on a minute. It's your camp that are so confident that a lower level of manager would result in certain relegation, whereas the next tier up in management (Sam) means the comfort of mid-table. By your own logic, who knows what an even better manager could have done?

[broadsword]

I asked a question first

Is taking Blackburn Rovers to 10th the performance of a merely competent manager, or a good manager?

Given how thin our playing squad is, I'd go for "good".

[booth]

But that is just the point. He is not a good manager, merely a competent one.

We were better off with a competent manager who could work on a budget than an inexperienced, incompetent one. I will admit that I wasn't a Sam fan, not that I had anything against him like some other Rovers fans. I just didn't like the way he would try to contain teams when they were there for the taking (West Ham 0-0 at home last year was particularly trying). Also he would say daft things that as a Rovers fan I'd cringe at. I'd cringe because I knew at work the following week I'd take a load of flak. I'd never boo him though, he just frustrated me. But to be fair, in hindsight, he was making sure the points were in the bag. And no matter how embarrassing Sam could be, he didn't get anywhere near Venky's.

And at times he did try to mix it up and get the players playing football, but unfortunately it's those games where we would outplay the other team but get beat. Which I'm sure is why he stuck to a more direct game.

Dopper, Hodgson has managed us before you know. A good first season, followed by a terrible second season. He was unlucky in the first half, with results going against the run of play, but made some awful buys. And that sealed his fate. That said, I'd prefer Hodgson in 1997 rather than Kean in 2011!

[dopper69]

I asked a question first

Is taking Blackburn Rovers to 10th the performance of a merely competent manager, or a good manager?

Given how thin our playing squad is, I'd go for "good".

Its the sign of a competent manager. Lets not forget that this 'good' manager also had one of the largest transfers provided to him in recent Rovers memory.

Yes, we had lost Bentley and Warnock following the dizzying heights of a 7th place finish but I feel that inheriting three of the most exciting young players to have pulled on the blue and white in recent years compensates for this.

So to answer your question, its competent from me.

We were better off with a competent manager who could work on a budget than an inexperienced, incompetent one. I will admit that I wasn't a Sam fan, not that I had anything against him like some other Rovers fans. I just didn't like the way he would try to contain teams when they were there for the taking (West Ham 0-0 at home last year was particularly trying). Also he would say daft things that as a Rovers fan I'd cringe at. I'd cringe because I knew at work the following week I'd take a load of flak. I'd never boo him though, he just frustrated me. But to be fair, in hindsight, he was making sure the points were in the bag. And no matter how embarrassing Sam could be, he didn't get anywhere near Venky's.

And at times he did try to mix it up and get the players playing football, but unfortunately it's those games where we would outplay the other team but get beat. Which I'm sure is why he stuck to a more direct game.

Dopper, Hodgson has managed us before you know. A good first season, followed by a terrible second season. He was unlucky in the first half, with results going against the run of play, but made some awful buys. And that sealed his fate. That said, I'd prefer Hodgson in 1997 rather than Kean in 2011!

I too have never once booed Sam, just as I won't boo Kean or any other manager. What does it really achieve?

I'm not here to justify the employment of Kean, I just feel that many posters on here are using Keans lack of results thus far to put Sam on a pedestal. IMO it is not justified.

[broadsword]

Which 3 players were these?

Hoillett and Jones would be two I guess, but they've only been ready to make a significant contribution this season.

I'm a little bit lost as to how spending £££ on players is some sort of advantage when 2 of the last few remaining pieces of family silver have been sold.

It doesn't stack up for me. God knows, I hated the football we played and couldn't stand Sam's public persona, but he kept us going.

We'll agree to disagree I think.

[Gav]

I asked a question first

Is taking Blackburn Rovers to 10th the performance of a merely competent manager, or a good manager?

Given how thin our playing squad is, I'd go for "good".

Do you know what Bryan, I'm about to open myself up to ridicule here, but we were pants last season, and the 10th place finish was a complete fluke and flattered us.

But the bottom line is we finished 10th, and you can’t really argue with that.