[Archived] Sam Allardyce Messiah or simply a good manager?

[imy9]

Spot on?! Do you listen to yourself sometimes? Complaining about people victimising Kean in one thread whilst coming out with a load of sour, blatantly biased rubbish about our previous manager in another. All Allardyce ever said is he thought he could do a good job if he was given a crack at a top club. To this day I fail to see what is so ridiculous, arrogant, amusing or any of the other hysterical reactions half of our fans came up with to that. He did better than practically anyone could have done at Bolton, his record was better than Hughes' at Rovers and Hughes was then snapped up by the richest club in the world. I'm not suprised Allardyce occasionally feels hard done by when it comes to the pecking order for high up posts.

I take issue with Hughes, he has a far superior record, look at his average points total for the years he was with us compared to other managers, position in the league, players brought and sold pound for pound in the top 5 managers in the league IMO.

[blue_and_white]

I take issue with Hughes, he has a far superior record, look at his average points total for the years he was with us compared to other managers, position in the league, players brought and sold pound for pound in the top 5 managers in the league IMO.

Over the 3 years Hughes and Allardyce were head-to-head the records were:

04/05 - Rovers 42pts 15th, Bolton 58pts 6th

05/06 - Rovers 63pts 6th, Bolton 56pts 8th

06/07 - Rovers 52pts 10th, Bolton 56pts 7th

So during those 3 years Allardyce was overall better in points, places and consistency. Of course Hughes had to rebuild in 04/05 but its worth mentioning that Bolton also finished 8th in 03/04 and reached the League Cup final. I agree Allardyce had a bigger budget than Hughes though which is why I judge them to be about as good as each other. I just find it ridiculous that one can get one of the biggest jobs in football without anyone batting an eyelid and the other can't even speculate on getting one of the biggest jobs without a shedload of criticism from his own fans.

Course this is all way in the past now, its just amazing how often massively hypocritical posts about laying off Kean come out from people who in 2 years never got off the back of our previous, 1 million times better, manager.

[Gav]

Spot on?! Do you listen to yourself sometimes? Complaining about people victimising Kean in one thread whilst coming out with a load of sour, blatantly biased rubbish about our previous manager in another. All Allardyce ever said is he thought he could do a good job if he was given a crack at a top club. To this day I fail to see what is so ridiculous, arrogant, amusing or any of the other hysterical reactions half of our fans came up with to that. He did better than practically anyone could have done at Bolton, his record was better than Hughes' at Rovers and Hughes was then snapped up by the richest club in the world. I'm not suprised Allardyce occasionally feels hard done by when it comes to the pecking order for high up posts.

I never brought up the original point, just agreed with it.

As for blatantly biased rubbish, what makes you think I'm not in a position to judge the last manager and his arrogance? Maybe, just maybe I’m in a position to judge, now there’s a thought.

By the way, even Allardyce said he was joking, maybe you missed that bit?

[XLM]

How much did we spend compared to the teams below us? Stoke, Sunderland, Fulham, Bolton and West Ham all had considerably more money to spend on players than we did. And if you look at the teams above us, every single one of them (including Birmingham who were finished level on points with and who spent around £15 million) spent much more than we ever could. Not only did we have no decent strikers, but we also had a threadbare midfield, a problem we still have now. Sure we had a solid defence and a goalkeeper who rediscovered his form, but that was about it.

And no, they weren't all his players. He'd only been there a season and a half and was given a negative transfer budget. You need three seasons to really build a team of your own. Little progress? We got 21 points from his 16 games this season - a large enough representative sample for the season. If we'd carried on like that (and there's every reason to say we wouldve done) we would've been in 9th, 2 points behind Everton before the game at Goodison. I'd call that progress. How much more progress did you expect when we could easily have been challenging a team which could spend £25 million plus on two midfielders alone (Fellaini and Biliyatdenov).

Contradict yourself into a frenzy, you're like a whirlpool of dog sh!t that doesn't stop.

Have your opinion, fair enough, we don't agree, but any time I have a discussion with you its like starting a fresh after every post you make because you just roll off another batch of flawed comments, flawed further by the fact you contradict your last posts. What is the point? Seriously?

And I'm the fool for wasting my time on it.

[imy9]

Over the 3 years Hughes and Allardyce were head-to-head the records were:

04/05 - Rovers 42pts 15th, Bolton 58pts 6th

05/06 - Rovers 63pts 6th, Bolton 56pts 8th

06/07 - Rovers 52pts 10th, Bolton 56pts 7th

So during those 3 years Allardyce was overall better in points, places and consistency. Of course Hughes had to rebuild in 04/05 but its worth mentioning that Bolton also finished 8th in 03/04 and reached the League Cup final. I agree Allardyce had a bigger budget than Hughes though which is why I judge them to be about as good as each other. I just find it ridiculous that one can get one of the biggest jobs in football without anyone batting an eyelid and the other can't even speculate on getting one of the biggest jobs without a shedload of criticism from his own fans.

Course this is all way in the past now, its just amazing how often massively hypocritical posts about laying off Kean come out from people who in 2 years never got off the back of our previous, 1 million times better, manager.

I was comparing overall league records for Blackburn and Bolton respectively:

Hughes average points per season was 54 points.

Allardyce average points per season was 50 points.

You also missed off the 7th place finish the season after with Hughes in charge and the two 15th and 16th place finishes for Sam.

Hughes built a team from scratch, the team he picked up was dire, Hughes had us playing the better football and more importantly built a squad, Sam was more about getting ex worldies into his side which is great short term, but there is no resale value to them, the one exception being Anelka who was sold for more than double what they paid.

[blue_and_white]

I was comparing overall league records for Blackburn and Bolton respectively:

Hughes average points per season was 54 points.

Allardyce average points per season was 50 points.

You also missed off the 7th place finish the season after with Hughes in charge and the two 15th and 16th place finishes for Sam.

Hughes built a team from scratch, the team he picked up was dire, Hughes had us playing the better football and more importantly built a squad, Sam was more about getting ex worldies into his side which is great short term, but there is no resale value to them, the one exception being Anelka who was sold for more than double what they paid.

Hughes still took over a much better Rovers side than Allardyce did at Bolton. Allardyce turning a mid-table Championship side into European material after 2 building seasons in the PL is just as impressive as Hughes doing it with a bottom-half Premiership side after 1 building season. I missed the 7th place off because I was just comparing the 3 years they overlapped, I don't really see an accurate way to compare the 2 otherwise considering as I said you can't expect Allardyce to jump a newly promoted team straight into European contention. Comparing Allardyce's 4 best years with Bolton against Hughes' 3 with Rovers might be fairest in which case Sam edges it in positions and Hughes edges it in points.

[imy9]

Hughes still took over a much better Rovers side than Allardyce did at Bolton. Allardyce turning a mid-table Championship side into European material after 2 building seasons in the PL is just as impressive as Hughes doing it with a bottom-half Premiership side after 1 building season. I missed the 7th place off because I was just comparing the 3 years they overlapped, I don't really see an accurate way to compare the 2 otherwise considering as I said you can't expect Allardyce to jump a newly promoted team straight into European contention. Comparing Allardyce's 4 best years with Bolton against Hughes' 3 with Rovers might be fairest in which case Sam edges it in positions and Hughes edges it in points.

The biggest difference is the squad left by both, the only player sold for decent money at Bolton was Anelka, I cannot remember any players being sold for more than a million or two, Hughes is legendary with the players he got and sold. That being said I agree with quite a lot of what you have said.

[tony gale's mic]

I was comparing overall league records for Blackburn and Bolton respectively:

Hughes average points per season was 54 points.

Allardyce average points per season was 50 points.

You also missed off the 7th place finish the season after with Hughes in charge and the two 15th and 16th place finishes for Sam.

Hughes built a team from scratch, the team he picked up was dire, Hughes had us playing the better football and more importantly built a squad, Sam was more about getting ex worldies into his side which is great short term, but there is no resale value to them, the one exception being Anelka who was sold for more than double what they paid.

The team Hughes picked up was dire?! How about the team that Sam picked up?

A lot of the team that Hughes picked up had won a domestic cup and finished 6th in the league, though obviously it was missing a few faces like Duff.

Comparing points per season is also silly, those 15th and 16th finishes Sam achieved were on the back of having just gotten a side promoted. Hughes never took over a newly promoted team, he took over a Premier League team who had lost their way.

Sam built a squad and Allardyce didn't??! How many of the 1999 First Divison team were in the squad when he left in 2007 then? Did all those players magically appear?

Jesus imy your posts get more and more bizzare. Sam's reign at Bolton was more impressive than Hughes' reign at Rovers. There's absolutely no way you can spin it to make it look otherwise.

[imy9]

Tony I find it interesting that you say that I am spinning things, if I give an opinion it's exactly that, when I give facts they are that, you have on numerous occasions given facts and repeated them dozens of times and they are inaccurate- genuine errors or attempts to point score,, examples?

1. Sam was only ever remotely involved in a relegation fight ONCE- I checked it quite clearly it was TWICE.

2. Kalinic has a minute to goal ratio of a goal every 175 minutes, this was wrong it's 1 every 149 minutes. Those are two I'm sure there are more.

I don't really know how much of what you state are facts are accurate and if I'm honest can't be bothered to check- i did for the above and it took a while so I will refrain from replying Doc.

[Amo]

A lot of the team that Hughes picked up had won a domestic cup and finished 6th in the league, though obviously it was missing a few faces like Duff.

Missing a few faces?

Dunn, Duff, Cole, Berg, all gone. Jansen a shadow of his former self.

That's the spine of our side gone straight away.

Instead, make way for Amoruso, Dickov, Bothroyd, and Matteo.

Hughes inherited a shambles of a squad yet turned us into a consecutive Top 10 side on a shoestring, whilst converting new signings into major assets. For me, that outshines Allardyce's work at Bolton.

[imy9]

Cheers Topman I see how the 'facts' of a few missing faces is inaccurate, like I've said already can't be bothered to keep checking but would recommend people do.

[tony gale's mic]

Tony I find it interesting that you say that I am spinning things, if I give an opinion it's exactly that, when I give facts they are that, you have on numerous occasions given facts and repeated them dozens of times and they are inaccurate- genuine errors or attempts to point score,, examples?

1. Sam was only ever remotely involved in a relegation fight ONCE- I checked it quite clearly it was TWICE.

2. Kalinic has a minute to goal ratio of a goal every 175 minutes, this was wrong it's 1 every 149 minutes. Those are two I'm sure there are more.

I don't really know how much of what you state are facts are accurate and if I'm honest can't be bothered to check- i did for the above and it took a while so I will refrain from replying Doc.

You really are strange. Those points make absolutely no difference to the substance of my argument.

I stand corrected on Sam, but it still doesn't change my point whatsoever. Bolton were a newly promoted team for the first season and widely tipped to go down the following season. Look at how many teams get relegated in the first two seasons back. Keeping them up was a big achievement.

After that he always got either Bolton, Rovers or Newcastle to mid table safety and often even better. Similarly this season, he wouldn't have got us anywhere near relegation, the times he did so with Bolton were with a side most managers would have got relegated.

Secondly the Kalinic figure supports my argument even more! That figure was something which had been quoted by various members of this board, and to be honest you're the first who I've seen quote it as 149 minutes. I can't find the figures online myself, but either way why would I say it was 175 minutes?

Like I said, really strange

How about you reply to the points of substance I made before, rather than your barrel scraping effort?

[imy9]

Doc you missed the point, I'm not into point scoring which is why I mentioned the Kalinic fact, it was wrong as was the Sam point. I like a good debate but as Topman has highlighted too your 'facts' are off target, so can't respond to misinformation can I?

[tony gale's mic]

Missing a few faces?

Dunn, Duff, Cole, Berg, all gone. Jansen a shadow of his former self.

That's the spine of our side gone straight away.

Instead, make way for Amoruso, Dickov, Bothroyd, and Matteo.

Hughes inherited a shambles of a squad yet turned us into a consecutive Top 10 side on a shoestring, whilst converting new signings into major assets. For me, that outshines Allardyce's work at Bolton.

Tugay? Friedel? Neill? Emerton? Reid? Pedersen?

Granted, several years on some of those names aren't that great, and for example Peds wasn't in the previous successful Rovers sides, but in those days they were absolutely crucial players that Hughes inherited.

Shall we compare the team that Sam inherited at Bolton to the one that Sparky inherited at Ewood?

Cheers Topman I see how the 'facts' of a few missing faces is inaccurate, like I've said already can't be bothered to keep checking but would recommend people do.

Nope, a few missing faces is completely accurate. He also inherited a lot of our key players.

Doc you missed the point, I'm not into point scoring which is why I mentioned the Kalinic fact, it was wrong as was the Sam point. I like a good debate but as Topman has highlighted too your 'facts' are off target, so can't respond to misinformation can I?

This is point scoring at it's very worst imy.

Neither of those points changed the substance of the argument. You respond to arguments, not information. If said information was wildly inaccurate and changed the substance, that would be a different story entirely.

I know you usually struggle imy but this is a bit much...

[imy9]

Tugay? Friedel? Neill? Emerton? Reid? Pedersen?

Granted, several years on some of those names aren't that great, and for example Peds wasn't in the previous successful Rovers sides, but in those days they were absolutely crucial players that Hughes inherited.

Shall we compare the team that Sam inherited at Bolton to the one that Sparky inherited at Ewood?

Nope, a few missing faces is completely accurate. He also inherited a lot of our key players.

This is point scoring at it's very worst imy.

Neither of those points changed the substance of the argument. You respond to arguments, not information. If said information was wildly inaccurate and changed the substance, that would be a different story entirely.

I know you usually struggle imy but this is a bit much...

Ok another example:

"Nope, a few missing faces is completely accurate" At least FOUR is not a few, changes your points completely Doc. I respond to arguments and information, how else do you support your points, you assume people are factual when they recount information to you but clearly this is not the case for you, another example? "staying up that season was one hell of an achievement anyway" in reference to Sam's first season in Division one, they were 9th in the league, nearer 1st position than 17th, could go on, you get my drift?

Oh yeah I do struggle I really do... come on Big T really, come on, act your age.

Anyway continue Tony, as I have said I will not continue to discuss points with you so please refrain from quoting me and I will not with you in future.

[tony gale's mic]

Ok another example:

"Nope, a few missing faces is completely accurate" At least FOUR is not a few, changes your points completely Doc. I respond to arguments and information, how else do you support your points, you assume people are factual when they recount information to you but clearly this is not the case for you, another example? "staying up that season was one hell of an achievement anyway" in reference to Sam's first season in Division one, they were 9th in the league, nearer 1st position than 17th, could go on, you get my drift?

Oh yeah I do struggle I really do... come on Big T really, come on, act your age.

Anyway continue Tony, as I have said I will not continue to discuss points with you so please refrain from quoting me and I will not with you in future.

Four is not a few? That's odd imy, almost as odd as you claiming to have said you wouldnt continue to discuss points with me...but this is exactly what you've been doing. Over the most bizzare things, at that.

Two certainly isn't a few, it's widely referred to as a "couple". So if four is not a few, then does that mean that only items grouped in a three can be referred to as a "few"?

:lol: Laughing stock, imy.

And when I said "staying up that season was a hell of an achievement", I was referring to Sam's first season in the Premier League.

[thenodrog]

I don't understand why he has such a massive ego.

I know Gordon likes to make parallels between Cloughie, Mourinho & Fergie, but they've cut it at the highest level. Sam's good at bossing unfashionable, North-West clubs - That's about it.

But given that we are an unfashionable North West club that is exactly what we want.

But for stupid old duffers at the FA he should have had the worlds top international managerial position, the England job and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. He couldn't have done any worse than this useless prat and the wally with the brolly before him, obviously therefore he couldn't have then come to BRFC and it's virtually certain that we would now be playing our football in a lower league. How would that suit you topman?

[imy9]

Four is not a few? That's odd imy, almost as odd as you claiming to have said you wouldnt continue to discuss points with me...but this is exactly what you've been doing. Over the most bizzare things, at that.

Two certainly isn't a few, it's widely referred to as a "couple". So if four is not a few, then does that mean that only items grouped in a three can be referred to as a "few"?

:lol: Laughing stock, imy.

And when I said "staying up that season was a hell of an achievement", I was referring to Sam's first season in the Premier League.

Reading is not a strong point is it Tony? AT LEAST FOUR, few is generally regarded in a similar vain to couple/three.

Oh yeah your quote: Considering when he took over Bolton were mid table in the league below, staying up that season was one hell of an achievement anyway

Made the words bigger so you could read it better, I'm going to stop this is getting a little embarrassing.

EDIT- out of context? You said the point you made was when Sam was in the premier league, clearly you said Div 1- check it yourself (I certainly would if my credibility was being demolished), lying about it is simply making it more cringe worthy.

[thenodrog]

I was comparing overall league records for Blackburn and Bolton respectively:

Hughes average points per season was 54 points.

Allardyce average points per season was 50 points.

You also missed off the 7th place finish the season after with Hughes in charge and the two 15th and 16th place finishes for Sam.

Hughes built a team from scratch, the team he picked up was dire, Hughes had us playing the better football and more importantly built a squad, Sam was more about getting ex worldies into his side which is great short term, but there is no resale value to them, the one exception being Anelka who was sold for more than double what they paid.

Two top managers alright. Not much between them at all. How did we end up with this useless dick?

btw you 3 are the most boring farts around. Talk about fiddling whilst Rome burns. We'd all take either of them back in a heartbeat.

[tony gale's mic]

Reading is not a strong point is it Tony? AT LEAST FOUR, few is generally regarded in a similar vain to couple/three.

Oh yeah your quote: Considering when he took over Bolton were mid table in the league below, staying up that season was one hell of an achievement anyway

Made the words bigger so you could read it better, I'm going to stop this is getting a little embarrassing.

Yes, although I can't be bothered finding that post, I'm pretty sure that sentence was as a response to a point about the season that Bolton finished 17th.

But congratulations for taking a sentence entirely out of context from the rest of the post.

Contradict yourself into a frenzy, you're like a whirlpool of dog sh!t that doesn't stop.

Have your opinion, fair enough, we don't agree, but any time I have a discussion with you its like starting a fresh after every post you make because you just roll off another batch of flawed comments, flawed further by the fact you contradict your last posts. What is the point? Seriously?

And I'm the fool for wasting my time on it.

Funny how you claim my post had big contradictions, but you couldn't have the good grace to say what they were.

Do you even know what a contradiction is, or are you trying to use big words in the hope that you'll impress me?

[Amo]

Tugay? Friedel? Neill? Emerton? Reid? Pedersen?

Granted, several years on some of those names aren't that great, and for example Peds wasn't in the previous successful Rovers sides, but in those days they were absolutely crucial players that Hughes inherited.

Reid wasn't even a key player, so you can't seriously compare him to the players who left.

In fact, aside from that one season (with the Wigan belter) his Rovers career was average.

And Pedersen was an unknown quantity up to that point.

We'd lost a core group of proven players, replaced with inferior quality, not to mention players who had peaked. Let's not underestimate the job he did at Rovers.

But given that we are an unfashionable North West club that is exactly what we want.

But for stupid old duffers at the FA he should have had the worlds top international managerial position, the England job and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. He couldn't have done any worse than this useless prat and the wally with the brolly before him, obviously therefore he couldn't have then come to BRFC and it's virtually certain that we would now be playing our football in a lower league. How would that suit you topman?

I'm sure there's a point here, but what is it?

[tony gale's mic]

Reid wasn't even a key player, so you can't seriously compare him to the players who left.

In fact, aside from that one season (with the Wigan belter) his Rovers career was average.

And Pedersen was an unknown quantity up to that point.

We'd lost a core group of proven players, replaced with inferior quality, not to mention players who had peaked. Let's not underestimate the job he did at Rovers.

Reid was a key player in our best season, the season we finished 6th.

However, Hughes did inherit plenty of players that performed very well.

I think Hughes did a brilliant job at Rovers. But no matter which way you look at it, it's not the same as getting a team from 9th in Division One, keeping them up in the Premier League for a couple of seasons, then over the following four seasons having an overall record only bettered by the top four.

[Kjell Sindre]

Allardyce vs. Hughes - what's the point of this discussion?

The only sad fact still remains; at the moment Venky's took over we had a very good manager on board, who had built success at a medium-sized club before, and with his experience and knowledge of the game could have done it again. Venky's sacked him, and now were facing a serious threat of relegation.

[XLM]

Yes, although I can't be bothered finding that post, I'm pretty sure that sentence was as a response to a point about the season that Bolton finished 17th.

But congratulations for taking a sentence entirely out of context from the rest of the post.

Funny how you claim my post had big contradictions, but you couldn't have the good grace to say what they were.

Do you even know what a contradiction is, or are you trying to use big words in the hope that you'll impress me?

A gay joke, hilarious.

I said that I have been a fool in constantly explaining your contradictions and misinterpretations. Fool no more.

[tony gale's mic]

A gay joke, hilarious.

I said that I have been a fool in constantly explaining your contradictions and misinterpretations. Fool no more.

I can honestly say I wasn't even thinking of that as a homosexual joke when I typed it.

There is no contradiction there. Calling you a fool would be very kind.