[Archived] Sam Allardyce Messiah or simply a good manager?

[Gav]

And again, this thread won't rest while people continue to makwe wildly inaccurate statements like this.

Unfortunately the hoofball tag stuck.

The reason for this.......because its true TGM, simple as that, no need to write war and peace on the subject, anyone who watched us over the past 2yrs can confirm.

The media really have been @#/?s with tagging him with the hoofball thing.

The same media that have reported Kean stabbed the messiah in the back? that so many on the site are now taking as fact

[Jimmy612]

The reason for this.......because its true TGM, simple as that, no need to write war and peace on the subject, anyone who watched us over the past 2yrs can confirm.

TGM had just given a full explanation for this and you appear to have ignored it. How can hoofball have been employed with players such as Okocha, Campo, Djorkaeff, Stelios on the field? Think things through Gav. Allardyce was maximising our potential by playing to our strengths.

I can't believe you are still arguing after the last 3 months, when the football was apparently going to 'improve'. Of course this wasn't your ideal replacement as you keep telling us, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Amo]

TGM had just given a full explanation for this and you appear to have ignored it. How can hoofball have been employed with players such as Okocha, Campo, Djorkaeff, Stelios on the field? Think things through Gav. Allardyce was maximising our potential by playing to our strengths.

They're technically-gifted players, of course they'll have some tricks up their sleeves, but they were still instructed to play the Allardyce percentage game.

[tony gale's mic]

The reason for this.......because its true TGM, simple as that, no need to write war and peace on the subject, anyone who watched us over the past 2yrs can confirm.

And once again, you manage to take out the most important parts and so miss the point entirely.

The "hoofball" tag stuck with him throughout his Bolton career. However once he'd stabilised them he got them playing a style of football that was considerably more pleasing on the eye. He did this by bringing in midfielders who had flair and creativity. If he was hoofball all the way through his Bolton career, there's no way those players would have flourished in the way they did.

Similarly, while I wouldn't use the term "hoofball", our style of play wasn't very pleasing on the eye at all for much of his reign. Later on things improved a little, but he refused to compromise on results and rightly so. And given the fact that, apart from Birmingham (who we finished level on points with and who'd spent a lot more than us anyway), we couldnt realistically have hoped to finish higher than any of the other teams above us last season, he was fully backed up in doing so. But if you look at his transfer targets this season (Raul, Guti, Adam) it's quite clear he was looking to do what he did at Bolton, bring in flair players that would excite the crowd at Ewood and if he'd either been allowed to do so by the Walkers, or if he'd not been sacked and been given the money Kean had in January, he would've tried to do just that.

Not the actions of a hoofball merchant, but the actions of a man who likes to spend a season or two making sure his team is solid and the back and don't have the threat of relegation looming large, before then adding flair and creativity to the team.

[Gav]

TGM had just given a full explanation for this and you appear to have ignored it. How can hoofball have been employed with players such as Okocha, Campo, Djorkaeff, Stelios on the field? Think things through Gav. Allardyce was maximising our potential by playing to our strengths.

I can't believe you are still arguing after the last 3 months, when the football was apparently going to 'improve'. Of course this wasn't your ideal replacement as you keep telling us, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It was a little bi cheeky to edit TGM's post I must admit

But Allardyce did play hoofball, everyone knows that Jimmy, including the national media who you decided to bring onside earlier today and now are trying to distance yourself from

And once again, you manage to take out the most important parts and so miss the point entirely.

Sorry TGM I was just having a bit of fun

You make some valid points.

[tony gale's mic]

They're technically-gifted players, of course they'll have some tricks up their sleeves, but they were still instructed to play the Allardyce percentage game.

Every player has tricks up their sleeves, that's not the point. If you go and watch park football, some of the better more skilful players there will do tricks and flicks that Morten Gamst Pedersen would never do under any manager in the Premier League.

Does that mean that MGP is less technically gifted than the park player? Joking aside, of course he's more gifted. But our players aren't skilful or technically gifted enough to reliably produce those moments of skill in the fast paced, tough tackling Premier League to incorporate those into our tactics.

The results Sam achieved back up his tactics. Sure they were ugly a lot of the time but like I've said, you only need to both look at the course his Bolton team followed over the years, together with the signings he was looking to bring in if he'd been given the chance, to show that things would have got better after he stabilised us. But unlike many people on this board, he realised that trying to play skilful football with players who aren't that skilful in comparison to the rest of the league will get you worse results.

[broadsword]

He also signed Matt Jansen, not the player you'd want up front if you were going to lump it into the mixer.

[Amo]

Every player has tricks up their sleeves, that's not the point. If you go and watch park football, some of the better more skilful players there will do tricks and flicks that Morten Gamst Pedersen would never do under any manager in the Premier League.

I wasn't literally talking about tricks & flicks, I'm talking about moments of quality. It's impossible for the class of Okocha, Djorkaeff & Campo not to shine through, but they still adhered to Sam's tactics of percentage, long-ball based football. So it's really a moot point. Heck, Sam even had Okocha on Rory Delap duty, if I recall rightly.

I'm not saying Sam's football wasn't effective, but that isn't the topic here.

Does that mean that MGP is less technically gifted than the park player? Joking aside, of course he's more gifted. But our players aren't skilful or technically gifted enough to reliably produce those moments of skill in the fast paced, tough tackling Premier League to incorporate those into our tactics.

We don't have many quality players in our side, no. Players like Pedersen have peaked, and there's a lot of raw talent, but these are still professional footballers who have learned the basics of pass and move.

The results Sam achieved back up his tactics. Sure they were ugly a lot of the time but like I've said, you only need to both look at the course his Bolton team followed over the years, together with the signings he was looking to bring in if he'd been given the chance, to show that things would have got better after he stabilised us. But unlike many people on this board, he realised that trying to play skilful football with players who aren't that skilful in comparison to the rest of the league will get you worse results.

But here you've fallen into the most common trap of the Allardyce debate.

Fans, such as myself, weren't asking for total football. Of course we haven't got the players to rip teams apart like Barca - give us some credit. No, people such as myself, wanted the team to mix it up and resort to Plan B, instead of needlessly launching it long. I thought this aspect improved towards the end of last season, and I was looking forward to Sam picking up where he left off, but it was back to the same old percentage football, which was hard work to watch and caused our fanbase to grow restless.

[tony gale's mic]

I wasn't literally talking about tricks & flicks, I'm talking about moments of quality. It's impossible for the class of Okocha, Djorkaeff & Campo not to shine through, but they still adhered to Sam's tactics of percentage, long-ball based football. So it's really a moot point. Heck, Sam even had Okocha on Rory Delap duty, if I recall rightly.

I'm not saying Sam's football wasn't effective, but that isn't the topic here.

I'm not saying Bolton played champagne football, but there's no way that all those midfielders would have flourished if Bolton in the latter stages of his reign were just about percentage, long ball-based football. There's no way the likes of Okocha would have been such key players. Long ball by definition minimises the role of the midfield, but if you look at some of his most successful signings they played in midfield.

There's no way seasoned footballers like Anelka, Campo, Okocha and Salgado who have all played in brilliant footballing teams would hold Sam in such high regard if his tactics were that primitive. How is it that so many respected players who've played in flair teams flock to Allardyce? I've never known a manager who's not managed a big club get so many of these type of players, regardless of the style they play. By all accounts Raul and/or Guti were on their way, convinced by Salgado, until the lack of funding got in the way. Players get the tactics straight from the horses mouth. All we get is a formation and we pretty much guess the rest.

And of course the effectiveness of tactics is the topic too. It's completely relevant and totally intertwined with any conversation about the aesthetics of the tactics. Playing nice passing football which loses you matches is far less appealing to any fan than playing direct football which wins you games.

We don't have many quality players in our side, no. Players like Pedersen have peaked, and there's a lot of raw talent, but these are still professional footballers who have learned the basics of pass and move.

And they were playing against quality defences and midfields who can quite easily nullify teams who try and play pass and move football if they're not very good at it. Simple as.

When interviewed Sam's mantra has always been to play to your strengths. If Rovers were playing a Sunday League team do you think Sam would have played percentage football? I'm pretty sure he'd play a more passing oriented game, because our team can outpass a Sunday League team better than they can out-physical them. But compared to a large majority of teams in our league, we were at a greater advantage if we played a more physical, direct approach. And so we did.

But here you've fallen into the most common trap of the Allardyce debate.

Fans, such as myself, weren't asking for total football. Of course we haven't got the players to rip teams apart like Barca - give us some credit. No, people such as myself, wanted the team to mix it up and resort to Plan B, instead of needlessly launching it long. I thought this aspect improved towards the end of last season, and I was looking forward to Sam picking up where he left off, but it was back to the same old percentage football, which was hard work to watch and caused our fanbase to grow restless.

And I never accused fans like yourself of asking for total football. That's just you putting words into my mouth.

But our results would have suffered if we'd played a different style of football with the players we had last season. Apart from Birmingham (who'd spent £15-20 million the previous summer and who we'd finished level on points with), who do you think we could have finished ahead of last season had we changed styles? Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about. I'm not saying we would've got relegated, but we wouldnt have got a top 10 finish either. Like I've said numerous times, the last ten years of Premier League football backs this belief up entirely (except for newly promoted one season wonders).

[imy9]

Something slightly different but Sam has been really good as commentator tonight in the Newcastle vs Man United game, after the likes of Phillips and co doing a poor job nice to hear a guy who clearly knows his stuff, insightful I thought.

[roverwhelmed]

Something slightly different but Sam has been really good as commentator tonight in the Newcastle vs Man United game, after the likes of Phillips and co doing a poor job nice to hear a guy who clearly knows his stuff, insightful I thought.

[Amo]

I'm not saying Bolton played champagne football, but there's no way that all those midfielders would have flourished if Bolton in the latter stages of his reign were just about percentage, long ball-based football. There's no way the likes of Okocha would have been such key players. Long ball by definition minimises the role of the midfield, but if you look at some of his most successful signings they played in midfield.

Percentage football.

Play for the second ball, free-kicks, corners, long-throws - places where the likes of Okocha, Djorkaeff etc. can make a difference.

There's no way seasoned footballers like Anelka, Campo, Okocha and Salgado who have all played in brilliant footballing teams would hold Sam in such high regard if his tactics were that primitive.

I think those players respect the job Sam did at a club like Bolton, making them a successful and competitive side, and as such were willing to overlook his crude tactics.

To quote Anelka:

"I have a lot to be grateful to Sam Allardyce. I had a good relationship with him. It was a bit strange for me because of their style of play.

There was a lot of ball in the air so it was hard for me at first but I managed to enjoy it and perform."

So he admits that Sam's tactics were long-ball, but it also allowed him to become a stronger player.

How is it that so many respected players who've played in flair teams flock to Allardyce? I've never known a manager who's not managed a big club get so many of these type of players, regardless of the style they play. By all accounts Raul and/or Guti were on their way, convinced by Salgado, until the lack of funding got in the way. Players get the tactics straight from the horses mouth. All we get is a formation and we pretty much guess the rest.

Players at the back-end of their careers wanting one last pay-day in the world's "greatest" league? That could easily apply to Salgado, Djorkaeff, Campo, Guti, Raul etc.

Anelka joined Bolton to get back into the PL and earn another big-money move. He admitted as much.

And of course the effectiveness of tactics is the topic too. It's completely relevant and totally intertwined with any conversation about the aesthetics of the tactics. Playing nice passing football which loses you matches is far less appealing to any fan than playing direct football which wins you games.

The question was whether Sam's 'long ball' tag was justified or not. That's all there is to it.

And they were playing against quality defences and midfields who can quite easily nullify teams who try and play pass and move football if they're not very good at it. Simple as.

And teams like Stoke who eat long-ball for breakfast, but it didn't stop Sam hammering the same tactics against them when we should have switched to Plan B.

When interviewed Sam's mantra has always been to play to your strengths. If Rovers were playing a Sunday League team do you think Sam would have played percentage football? I'm pretty sure he'd play a more passing oriented game, because our team can outpass a Sunday League team better than they can out-physical them. But compared to a large majority of teams in our league, we were at a greater advantage if we played a more physical, direct approach. And so we did.

So Rovers can only outplay a Sunday League side, now? Don't use such hyperbole if you're trying to make a serious point.

And I never accused fans like yourself of asking for total football. That's just you putting words into my mouth.

You more or less implied it.

But our results would have suffered if we'd played a different style of football with the players we had last season. Apart from Birmingham (who'd spent £15-20 million the previous summer and who we'd finished level on points with), who do you think we could have finished ahead of last season had we changed styles? Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about. I'm not saying we would've got relegated, but we wouldnt have got a top 10 finish either. Like I've said numerous times, the last ten years of Premier League football backs this belief up entirely (except for newly promoted one season wonders).

Actually, our 10th place finish coincided with an upturn in performances, so I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a more flexible tactical approach (especially for all those wasted away games) would have been to our favour.

[DanLad]

Something slightly different but Sam has been really good as commentator tonight in the Newcastle vs Man United game, after the likes of Phillips and co doing a poor job nice to hear a guy who clearly knows his stuff, insightful I thought.

Is it me, or does he just says what he sees (except me makes sure he doesn't slag off Man U). It's revolutionary new concept. Have someone who can see and speak commentating on a game.

(He still has the Man U bias, so he fits with Sky, as well!)

[Jimmy612]

It was a little bi cheeky to edit TGM's post I must admit

But Allardyce did play hoofball, everyone knows that Jimmy, including the national media who you decided to bring onside earlier today and now are trying to distance yourself from

Have a little look further up mate, I wrote it first, to Rev.

Allardyce played hoofball until he had an adequate team to play a different way. I'm sure you'l agree that since we have been trying to play 'entertaining football' that our form may have dipped slightly.

In what way did I mention the media before? May have forgotten, but i doubt it was with regard to them denying Sam played hoofball, they were all on his back for it and I do believe it has affected his career. Too many Bburn fans didn't want him because of the unfortunate tag he was given.

If you had bothered to watch his Bolton side you might have seen that with the players I mentioned above, plus players such as Nolan, they made a decent footballing side. Unfortunately Gav you appear to have listened to the media and latched on to the ###### they talk, instead of formulating an opinion yourself and giving him chance to build his team.

Sam had two years here and had already developed us into a side that were very good at home and despite all arguments were not that bad away either.

What you quite expected of him is beyond me. Did you expect to get better value for money for the price of your season ticket? Or did you want us higher placed in the league? Or perhaps you never gave the man a chance because you were silly enough to have a personal dislike for him regardless of the job he did. And here I was thinking you gave every manager a chance

[grizfoot]

Don't know he could not see that clear dive from Hernandez at the end there. Obviously didn't want to upset his red-nosed chum.

[tony gale's mic]

Percentage football.

Play for the second ball, free-kicks, corners, long-throws - places where the likes of Okocha, Djorkaeff etc. can make a difference.

No, free kicks, corners and long throws are places where the likes of Pedersen and Samba can make a difference. Obviously this was what he did during most of his only full season with Rovers, but creative and flair players like Okocha and Djorkaeff thrive more from open play. That's not to say that he eliminated this from his play completely, obviously he didn't, and Okocha etc are also very good at set pieces. But they did far more than just set pieces in Allardyce's side.

I think those players respect the job Sam did at a club like Bolton, making them a successful and competitive side, and as such were willing to overlook his crude tactics.

To quote Anelka:

"I have a lot to be grateful to Sam Allardyce. I had a good relationship with him. It was a bit strange for me because of their style of play.

There was a lot of ball in the air so it was hard for me at first but I managed to enjoy it and perform."

So he admits that Sam's tactics were long-ball, but it also allowed him to become a stronger player.

Fernando Hierro:

"I have a very positive impression of Sam. He is very intense about his football, he knows what he wants," Hierro told BBC One's Football Focus.

"He tried to bring me here last year, and this year succeeded, and I am very grateful for the chance he has given me here.

"I think at some point in the future, when he knows what he wants, a very big club will be interested in him."

I doubt a player who came from a big club would say that he would be able to manage at a very big club if he thought that managers tactics were primitive.

Obviously Bolton's tactics would seem different to someone who'd spent most of his career at Arsenal, Real and PSG. But if he was such a basic tactician as you imply there's no way he'd command the respect of so many players who have worked with the very best.

Players at the back-end of their careers wanting one last pay-day in the world's "greatest" league? That could easily apply to Salgado, Djorkaeff, Campo, Guti, Raul etc.

Anelka joined Bolton to get back into the PL and earn another big-money move. He admitted as much.

To be fair Anelka is a bit of a mercenary, but a lot of those players had other offers on the table. And pretty much all of those players not only joined Bolton but came out of it with huge amounts of respect for their manager and enjoyed Indian summers under him. A lot of those players were flair players who would simply be suffocated in the system you're claiming Sam employed during his whole time. I'll be the first to admit that Sam's football with us last season wasn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but it was part of a bigger plan and it did a great job.

The question was whether Sam's 'long ball' tag was justified or not. That's all there is to it.

Not really, because it's a loaded term which doesn't take into account finances, the players available to the team etc etc. A manager playing long ball in a team with few skilful players and little money but who's getting success is one thing. However a true long ball manager is one who will play it regardless of whether he's getting success or not, and who'll play it even with lots of money to spend on skilful players.

A lot of the time Sam's hands have been tied by what's available to him, so comparing him against managers who either had more resources to buy better players and play nicer football, or who were happy to compromise results for the sake of style is hardly fair. Should either of those things be held against him?

And teams like Stoke who eat long-ball for breakfast, but it didn't stop Sam hammering the same tactics against them when we should have switched to Plan B.

Big deal. You can name individual United games this season where Fergie will have got it wrong.

So Rovers can only outplay a Sunday League side, now? Don't use such hyperbole if you're trying to make a serious point.

That's funny. You're putting words into my mouth again. At no point did I say - or imply - that Rovers can only outplay a Sunday League side. It was taking an argument to its logical conclusion.

You more or less implied it.

Where?

Actually, our 10th place finish coincided with an upturn in performances, so I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a more flexible tactical approach (especially for all those wasted away games) would have been to our favour.

No, our 10th place finish was a marker for what we'd done that season. We ALWAYS do better at the end of a season, this is something which has stretched back right to the days of Souness. Apart from the extenuating circumstances of this season, I can't remember a time recently when this hasn't been the case.

And our away record wasn't even that bad. It was 13th in the league, but it was no more than 3 points away from Birmingham's who had the 10th best away record. Apart from Stoke who had a great away record, it was either within 3 points or better than all the teams outside the top 8 teams (ie the ones with the most spending power: the big 4, Spurs, City, Villa and Everton).

And considering we were level on points with Birmingham but ELEVEN points away from Everton in 8th, apart from possibly lifting us up that extra place it would haven't made one blind bit of difference. Everton can spend £25 million plus on two midfielders alone. We can't do that. That's where the difference lies, not the tactics of a manager who has made a career out of making the best out of what he's got. But had we not had such a direct approach and tried to use this "plan B" at Ewood in some of the games, my guess is overall we'd have lost more points than we gained.

[47er]

They're technically-gifted players, of course they'll have some tricks up their sleeves, but they were still instructed to play the Allardyce percentage game.

Suppose Sam had been allowed to sign Raul and Guti? Do you think we would have played hoofball? And where in the League would we be now? And what percentage of our season-ticket holders would renew at the earliest possibility?

This is where I really blame the Walker Trust.

[otto man]

I didn't hear it but apparently Sam was interviewed on Gray and Keys on Talksport the other morning and said the reason he wasn't getting any job offers was that he was saddled with the long ball tag.

You reap what you sow I suppose, I've passed the opinion several times that his time at Rovers wouldn't enhance his reputation within the wider footballing community but as a short term "get us out of trouble" firefighter he should surely be the first name on every prospective employer's list.

Out of the horses mouth! The Messiah?......Messiah my arse!

[Gav]

Have a little look further up mate, I wrote it first, to Rev.

Allardyce played hoofball until he had an adequate team to play a different way. I'm sure you'l agree that since we have been trying to play 'entertaining football' that our form may have dipped slightly.

In what way did I mention the media before? May have forgotten, but i doubt it was with regard to them denying Sam played hoofball, they were all on his back for it and I do believe it has affected his career. Too many Bburn fans didn't want him because of the unfortunate tag he was given.

If you had bothered to watch his Bolton side you might have seen that with the players I mentioned above, plus players such as Nolan, they made a decent footballing side. Unfortunately Gav you appear to have listened to the media and latched on to the ###### they talk, instead of formulating an opinion yourself and giving him chance to build his team.

Sam had two years here and had already developed us into a side that were very good at home and despite all arguments were not that bad away either.

What you quite expected of him is beyond me. Did you expect to get better value for money for the price of your season ticket? Or did you want us higher placed in the league? Or perhaps you never gave the man a chance because you were silly enough to have a personal dislike for him regardless of the job he did. And here I was thinking you gave every manager a chance

You seem insistent on going round in circles Jimmy, again for the record, I wanted him as manager, best man for the job at the time.

As for watching his Bolton side, I sit next to a season ticket holder, next best thing I’d say.

As for us ‘not being bad away’ you’re on another planet with that comment.

And now I’ve lost interest again, sorry Jimmy.

[A cup of beans]

wonder can the title of this thread be changed ? maybe to ...

SAM ALLARYDYCE MESSIAH OR SIMPLY GOOD MANAGER. HE'S NEVER COMING BACK. AND BEFORE HE GETS ANOTHER JOB, WE'LL HAVE TO PUT UP WITH HIM AS A USELESS PUNDIT AND EVEN WORSE CO COMMENTATOR.

his soundbites are appalling. on ESPN on sunday he mentioned ''box action'' haha. gonna get that on a t-shirt.

as a co-commentator last night he said something like; "newcastle arn't anticipating the big kick-out from theyre goalkeeper." sound familiar. if only they had robinson, nzonzi samba and others to pile in! haha.

the rest of the time; he sounds like he's trying solve a really difficult maths equation while thinking of something to say! haha.

[roverwhelmed]

wonder can the title of this thread be changed maybe...

SAM ALLARYDYCE MESSIAH OR SIMPLY GOOD MANAGER. HE'S NEVER COMING BACK. SO WE'LL HAVE TO PUT UP WITH HIM AS A USELESS PUNDIT AND EVEN WORSE CO COMMENTATOR.

his soundbites are appalling. on ESPN on sunday he mentioned ''box action'' haha. gonna get that on a t-shirt.

as a co-commentator last night he said something like; "newcastle arn't anticipating the big kick-out from theyre goalkeeper." sound familiar. if only they had robinson, nzonzi samba and others to pile in! haha.

the rest of the time; he sounds like he's trying solve a really difficult maths equation while thinking of something to say! haha.

I thought he was pretty spot on with his commentary, and he does fine as a pundit.

I genuinely felt quite sad listening to him last night, wishing he was where he should still be. Along with JW.

[A cup of beans]

I thought he was pretty spot on with his commentary, and he does fine as a pundit.

I genuinely felt quite sad listening to him last night, wishing he was where he should still be. Along with JW.

like most on here... you have erased the dross.. contempt... the picking of certain matches and sod the rest... under sam from your memory. maybe he's hypnotised you during his brillant commentary!

im sorry... nothing personal mate, but i cant stop laughing at that response! im picturing you close to tears, clutching a photo of big sam to your breast! haha

[roverwhelmed]

like most on here... you have erased the dross under him from your memory... maybe his hypnotised you during his brillant commentary!

im sorry... nothing personal mate, but i cant stop laughing at that response! im picturing you close to tears, clutching a photo of big sam to your breast! haha

I wouldn't go that far

Just like, 'meh'.

[A cup of beans]

I wouldn't go that far

Just like, 'meh'.

haha. v good reply 'meh' is exactly my response when i think of big sam... accompanied by a huge shudder! haha

[47er]

wonder can the title of this thread be changed ? maybe to ...

SAM ALLARYDYCE MESSIAH OR SIMPLY GOOD MANAGER. HE'S NEVER COMING BACK. AND BEFORE HE GETS ANOTHER JOB, WE'LL HAVE TO PUT UP WITH HIM AS A USELESS PUNDIT AND EVEN WORSE CO COMMENTATOR.

his soundbites are appalling. on ESPN on sunday he mentioned ''box action'' haha. gonna get that on a t-shirt.

as a co-commentator last night he said something like; "newcastle arn't anticipating the big kick-out from theyre goalkeeper." sound familiar. if only they had robinson, nzonzi samba and others to pile in! haha.

the rest of the time; he sounds like he's trying solve a really difficult maths equation while thinking of something to say! haha.

How are things in Nelson?