[Archived] Phil Jones

[RibbleValleyRover]

What's the problem here? United have better coaches and more money spent on the latest sports technology/training methods. Unless training isn't being run by the coaches correctly, the player in question is suffering from injuries or the player has an attitude problem when it comes to training then I would expect with everything considered players at that club should be fitter than ours.

In my view from what I've seen of Rovers over the past few years that gap in general fitness between the top clubs and the bottom has increased. Compare the fitness levels of players under Hughes tenure to this current setup and there is a stark contrast, even under Allardyce we weren't as fit as a side under Hughes imo.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

What's the problem here? United have better coaches and more money spent on the latest sports technology/training methods. Unless training isn't being run by the coaches correctly, the player in question is suffering from injuries or the player has an attitude problem when it comes to training then I would expect with everything considered players at that club should be fitter than ours.

In my view from what I've seen of Rovers over the past few years that gap in general fitness between the top clubs and the bottom has increased. Compare the fitness levels of players under Hughes tenure to this current setup and there is a stark contrast, even under Allardyce we weren't as fit as a side under Hughes imo.

Can we just not accept that they can afford better players ? If you spend half your time chasing the ball because you haven't the skill to retain it - of course you will look less fit than the opposition.

All Premiership teams now employ sports science - and I am led to believe that Kean is a great supporter of it. Difference was a few years ago - especially going back to Sam's time at Bolton - when not everybody did. Now it is just part of the regime.

Also - how the training is set up can impact on players fitness over a season - under Hodgson (in his first season) we set off like a steam train - and then lost fitness as the season went on. Under Hughes we seemed slow to start - but always finished the season strongly.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Can we just not accept that they can afford better players ? If you spend half your time chasing the ball because you haven't the skill to retain it - of course you will look less fit than the opposition.

All Premiership teams now employ sports science - and I am led to believe that Kean is a great supporter of it. Difference was a few years ago - especially going back to Sam's time at Bolton - when not everybody did. Now it is just part of the regime.

Also - how the training is set up can impact on players fitness over a season - under Hodgson (in his first season) we set off like a steam train - and then lost fitness as the season went on. Under Hughes we seemed slow to start - but always finished the season strongly.

All valid points and adds to the theory that money is the main driving factor, whether that's buying the best players, coaches, technology etc. Majiball will know a lot more on this subject than me and many others.

Going back to the reason why the issue about fitness was raised and hinting at the possibility something is not right at Rovers (using Phil's comments about how much more challenging it is at United). A lot of players have looked dead on their feet this pre-season and going into the start of the season. Second half against Sheff Wednesday a lot of players looked like they were completely shattered. Ignoring players like Petrovic and Goodwillie because they haven't had a full pre-season at the club, but players like Formica and Rochina look a mile away from being fit to play a competitive 90 mins in the Premier League.

Does anyone else not find that worrying? The first few games of the season and so many players look shattered?

[Reedy You're A Star]

All valid points and adds to the theory that money is the main driving factor, whether that's buying the best players, coaches, technology etc. Majiball will know a lot more on this subject than me and many others.

Going back to the reason why the issue about fitness was raised and hinting at the possibility something is not right at Rovers (using Phil's comments about how much more challenging it is at United). A lot of players have looked dead on their feet this pre-season and going into the start of the season. Second half against Sheff Wednesday a lot of players looked like they were completely shattered. Ignoring players like Petrovic and Goodwillie because they haven't had a full pre-season at the club, but players like Formica and Rochina look a mile away from being fit to play a competitive 90 mins in the Premier League.

Does anyone else not find that worrying? The first few games of the season and so many players look shattered?

It's very worrying. I remember in Hughes' day, we used to get results at times purely because we were so much fitter than the opposition and could keep pressing and harassing the other team for 90+ minutes and make them make mistakes. Now, we it's often the complete opposite.

[47er]

I said a week or 2 ago that Jones looks much trimmer than he did with us.Would tend to imply a greater level of fitness?

We need every advantage we can get--------not disadvantages. Hughes knew that.

On another point, I read a press article yesterday where the writer was wetting himself about Fergie and the new blood he's bringing through.

Jones was specifically referred to as the latest to come off "the United conveyor belt".

Absolutely nauseating.

[Eddie]

Whilst it may be down to superior training with United, it could also be that he is growing into his body. It's not unusual for people to naturally lose weight (or gain weight) as they hit their 20's.

[den]

There's no reason why Man Utd's players should be fitter than anyone else's. New technologies are available to everyone. If rovers aren't using these techniques, then that explains any possible difference [not that I'm saying there is a difference], rather than "better players are fitter".

Under Hughes we were as fit as any side in the country.

Den?

What Bucky? I'm not having a go at Kean here, simply interested in Jones's comments about training being of a higher tempo.

As for Rovers fitness levels, well I don't know any more than anyone else. However, all throughout last season, rovers displays regularly dropped dramatically in the last twenty minutes or so of pretty much every game. Was this due to:

a] Kean's substitutions

b] rovers fitness levels

or

c] both?

[Eddie]

I watched the interview and I didn't hear him say training, as far as I heard he only said that they play at a much higher tempo (if this was the interview with him with sky immediately after the match when they awarded the motm to Welbeck).

It's possible that I misheard, but I am fairly certain that he didn't specify training.

Den, you're also being fairly biased by picking on Kean. Our performances in the second half regularly dropped under Allardyce, who is famed for being the master of the training ground and technology. The second half of last season was only a continuation of what had been happening under Allardyce.

[den]

I watched the interview and I didn't hear him say training, as far as I heard he only said that they play at a much higher tempo (if this was the interview with him with sky immediately after the match when they awarded the motm to Welbeck).

It's possible that I misheard, but I am fairly certain that he didn't specify training.

Den, you're also being fairly biased by picking on Kean. Our performances in the second half regularly dropped under Allardyce, who is famed for being the master of the training ground and technology. The second half of last season was only a continuation of what had been happening under Allardyce.

Eddie. As for the first part of your post, if Jones didn't say that about training, then fair do's, we're only discussing what someone said earlier.

As for Rovers performances regularly dropping in the later stages of the games under Allardyce, well TBH, I don't remember that. Maybe, maybe not. Again, don't get wound up thinking this is an anti-Kean post, - it isn't.

You didn't pick an option from the above.

[Eddie]

Well I certainly think the fitness levels of the squad could be higher, but a lot of that is down to the fact that some of the players that we have are simply incapable of being any fitter (look at someone like Dunn in central midfield, you could put him on the strictest and most demanding fitness regime, but I still don't think his body would be up to covering the pitch for 90 minutes).

I also think the fact that we don't retain possession well is part of this and Allardyce deserves some of the blame for that. We often went through periods of 15-20 minutes where we would chase the ball and then quickly move up field whenever we had it and this combines the two most tiring aspects of the game. We'll last far better if we can go through stretches of the game where we retain possession and dictate the tempo.

[Kelbo]

It's very worrying. I remember in Hughes' day, we used to get results at times purely because we were so much fitter than the opposition and could keep pressing and harassing the other team for 90+ minutes and make them make mistakes. Now, we it's often the complete opposite.

Interestingly, when my son was doing his teacher training and his degree (PE) one of the assignments looked at this aspect, especially the 90 minutes plus element, three things became evident, the high proportion of goals scored in minutes 1 to 5 due to lack of concentration, then 40 to 45 minutes (again as concentration levels tend to drop due to H/T and 85 to 90 + minutes, the amount of goals scored during those period were quite alarming, so yes, we would be well advised to increase our fitness levels (but not overtrain) and look to become stronger in the last 20 minutes when concentration levels tend to dip.

Interestingly and again Majiball may put me right here, even though after reaching one fitness levels during the pre season training, even if working with the ball and quick passing, one hour is not enough, a game lasts for 90 minutes plus so we should at least work for 2 hours with a 15 min break in between to mimic half time and allow 15 minutes added on time, surely by doing that, the playyers would have enough in their tank to become stronger towards the end of the games!! just a thought but on Wednesday evening, many of our players looked knackered in the second half!

Well I certainly think the fitness levels of the squad could be higher, but a lot of that is down to the fact that some of the players that we have are simply incapable of being any fitter (look at someone like Dunn in central midfield, you could put him on the strictest and most demanding fitness regime, but I still don't think his body would be up to covering the pitch for 90 minutes).

I also think the fact that we don't retain possession well is part of this and Allardyce deserves some of the blame for that. We often went through periods of 15-20 minutes where we would chase the ball and then quickly move up field whenever we had it and this combines the two most tiring aspects of the game. We'll last far better if we can go through stretches of the game where we retain possession and dictate the tempo.

Agree Eddie but we really hadnt the players who could retain possession, we look far better equipped now in midfield with regards to ball retention, the real downside for me is shape and fitness levels.

[Eddie]

We are certainly more suited to it now, but even then we could have done it better. The players were under strict instruction to play in a certain way, that was the style of the manager, not their limitations.

[den]

We are certainly more suited to it now, but even then we could have done it better. The players were under strict instruction to play in a certain way, that was the style of the manager, not their limitations.

Players are always under instruction from the manager. Fortunately Sam knew how to win games with any squad and that's the whole reason for them being there. Plus Eddie, the football on show under Sam was far superior to this tripe masquerading as football now.

[Amo]

Fortunately Sam knew how to win games with any squad

Except Newcastle's.

[JAL]

It's very worrying. I remember in Hughes' day, we used to get results at times purely because we were so much fitter than the opposition and could keep pressing and harassing the other team for 90+ minutes and make them make mistakes. Now, we it's often the complete opposite.

Definitely !

Player fitness looks like an area Rovers need to improve on once again by raising the bar on this issue. If you'd have witnessed the second half against third division Sheffield Wednesday you wouldnt have seen much of a difference fitness wise between the teams which cant be good from a Rovers perspective.

Then if we hire a loser like Stephen Kean what can we really expect.

[Andy]

Except Newcastle's.

I'm sure somebody proved this as a myth recently - weren't they comfortably top half when he was fired??

[frosty]

I'm sure somebody proved this as a myth recently - weren't they comfortably top half when he was fired??

11th I think. Then after his sacking they plummeted.

[Amo]

I'm sure somebody proved this as a myth recently - weren't they comfortably top half when he was fired??

Allardyce's record at Newcastle isn't much better than Kean's here.

Sam (Newcastle):

P24 W8 D6 L10 - 33.33% win ratio

Kean (Rovers):

P26 W7 D7 L12 - 26.92% win ratio

That's no defence as Kean as a manager, oh no. Just disproving Den's claim that Allardyce can work with any squad. If that was the case, he wouldn't be plying his trade at West Ham. Ask Newcastle fans what they thought of Allardyce's approach to their decent squad of players.

[broadsword]

That win % of Kean's is a sheer bloody disgrace. Given the number of games played, it's not a grey area. That would see him sacked by any board worth its salt.

I'm honestly staggered how he's still here.

[Mattyblue]

Capello said 'Jones is a big talent, but he has only played one game and a few minutes at Wembley'

[Stuart]

Doesn't surprise me. Just goes to show that unless you are top 6 or a London club, you are insignificant to Capello.

[Guest Rovers4Good]

Just heard the Paddy Crerand show where he goes on to say that Rovers fans should be very angry at letting Phil Jones go as in todays open market he should be worth double what Man Utd paid for him.

[den]

Just heard the Paddy Crerand show where he goes on to say that Rovers fans should be very angry at letting Phil Jones go as in todays open market he should be worth double what Man Utd paid for him.

He's right.

[John]

Just heard the Paddy Crerand show where he goes on to say that Rovers fans should be very angry at letting Phil Jones go as in todays open market he should be worth double what Man Utd paid for him.

Look how quickly he has settled in at Man Utd, sign of a class player. Also, most of the major clubs in England wanted to sign him therefore could have got a very high price for him.

[broadsword]

This all comes down to the clause that was inserted.

If I remember correctly, then an £8m clause was put in his contract last summer. Then in January a £16m clause was put in.

Now, if Jones had already decided before January that he wanted to go, then he would've had us over a barrel to an extent. If he didn't like the deal, he didn't have to sign, and it was still a £8m clause. On that basis, he would have been in a very strong position for asking for a clause in an improved deal.

What did the clause give Man Utd permission to do though? Because we let it go through all the way to Jones agreeing the deal and having a medical before we started asking for more money. That's not a strong bargaining position. Whether a higher amount could have been put in the transfer clause, and what bidders meeting the clause could do are two things we might never find out.