[Archived] Bin Laden dead

[colin]

Thenodrog, slight correction, you said

Lieutenant General Asad Durrani, former head of the ISI, Pakistan's intelligence service, said it was "inconceivable"

that his government was unaware of the US raid on Osama bin Laden's compound.

I was talking about his five or six year- long habitation of the property.

Bryan

We're talking about the world's most wanted man here. His picture has been beamed around the world, he's

released numerous videos to the press. You wouldn't have bumped into him in the street and not realised it

wasn't him. He wasn't hiding out in some caves. He was on the doorstep of a military academy, going about

his daily business without fear as far as I can tell.

According to one of his wives he has spent the last five years indoors - hardly going about his "daily business."

And can someone please tell me why his proximity to a military acedemy has any bearing on finding him? Is there some kind of

default distance from this military academy where it would have been OK for Pakistan to have not known about him living there?

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Thenodrog, slight correction, you said

I was talking about his five or six year- long habitation of the property.

Bryan

According to one of his wives he has spent the last five years indoors - hardly going about his "daily business."

And can someone please tell me why his proximity to a military acedemy has any bearing on finding him? Is there some kind of

default distance from this military academy where it would have been OK for Pakistan to have not known about him living there?

Colin, this is getting rather tiresome. I know that you like to throw a curve ball wherever possible, but I would suugest you do some much needed reading re ISI and its strategic focus on working with terror groups.

[SouthAussieRover]

And can someone please tell me why his proximity to a military acedemy has any bearing on finding him? Is there some kind of

default distance from this military academy where it would have been OK for Pakistan to have not known about him living there?

My initial point was that you'd think the Pakistan authorities would be interested in whoever was living in the compound given its proximity to the academy.

Please don't twist my words.

[sijoco]

Back in April 2002, over nine years ago, Dr. Steve Pieczenik reported that Bin Laden had already been “dead for months,” and that the government was waiting for the most politically expedient time to roll out his corpse. Pieczenik would be in a position to know, having personally met Bin Laden and worked with him during the proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan back in the early 80′s.

Pieczenik said that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001, “Not because special forces had killed him, but because as a physician I had known that the CIA physicians had treated him and it was on the intelligence roster that he had marfan syndrome,” adding that the US government knew Bin Laden was dead before they invaded Afghanistan.

Marfan syndrome is a degenerative genetic disease for which there is no permanent cure. The illness severely shortens the life span of the sufferer.

“He died of marfan syndrome, Bush junior knew about it, the intelligence community knew about it,” said Pieczenik, noting how CIA physicians had visited Bin Laden in July 2001 at the American Hospital in Dubai.

“He was already very sick from marfan syndrome and he was already dying, so nobody had to kill him,” added Pieczenik, stating that Bin Laden died shortly after 9/11 in his Tora Bora cave complex.

“Did the intelligence community or the CIA doctor up this situation, the answer is yes, categorically yes,” said Pieczenik, referring to Sunday’s claim that Bin Laden was killed at his compound in Pakistan, adding, “This whole scenario where you see a bunch of people sitting there looking at a screen and they look as if they’re intense, that’s nonsense,” referring to the images released by the White House which claim to show Biden, Obama and Hillary Clinton watching the operation to kill Bin Laden live on a television screen.

“It’s a total make-up, make believe, we’re in an American theater of the absurd….why are we doing this again….nine years ago this man was already dead….why does the government repeatedly have to lie to the American people,” asked Pieczenik.

“Osama Bin Laden was totally dead, so there’s no way they could have attacked or confronted or killed Osama Bin laden,” said Pieczenik, that the only way it could have happened was if special forces had attacked a mortuary.

Dr.Steve Pieczenik served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. Pieczenik also served as a senior policy planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker and worked on George W. Bush’s election campaign against Al Gore. His record underscores the fact that he is one of the most deeply connected men in intelligence circles over the past three decades plus.

[DE.]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42906279/ns/world_news-death_of_bin_laden/t/bin-laden-firefight-only-one-man-was-armed/

The story changes again.

[colin]

Bazza.

Colin, this is getting rather tiresome. I know that you like to throw a curve ball wherever possible,

but I would suugest you do some much needed reading re ISI and its strategic focus on working with terror groups.

If it's tiresome for you, just drop out of the conversation. I'm going to be a bit more tiresome in a minute.

SAR

My initial point was that you'd think the Pakistan authorities would be interested in whoever was living in the compound given its proximity to the academy.

Yes, OK, but why? Why would the Pakistani authorities be especially interested in a building just because it's close to an academy. This is what I've been banging on about. I'm not trying to twist your words, I don't want to do that at all. All I want to understand is why anyone thinks that just because OBL was within 5 miles of a military academy he should have been spotted before. Is there a mileage limit between OBL and this academy after which it's OK for the Pakistani authorities to have not known?

What is this mileage limit? Who invented it?

My whole perception is redolent of Terry Pratchett's Private Nobby Nobbs who says with certainty that "My old man always said that..." or "Everyone knows that..."

Moving on. Does anyone else have worrieds that the USA has sent an assasination squad into a sovereign country to kill people? If OBL (hope the spelling is still to everyone's satisfaction) had shaved off his beard and was living in (say) Dewsbury; wearing spectacles & a suit & the USA helicoptered in a hit squad, shot him in the head & then scarpered would the UK be happy?

I'm also interested by a comment that I heard on the radio today that after World War II, the perpetrators of the biggest slaughter the world has ever known were brought to trial at Nuremburg. Similarly Slobodan Misoevic was given a trial. OBL was not given that. He was assasinated without a trial. Any thoughts on this?

And just before I finish, I'm not some kind of supporter of OBL (spelling immaculate yet again) I'm just kicking a wasps' nest.

Cheers

Colin

[neekoy]

I have no concern with political assassinations of this nature, if you don't believe the MSS, MOIS, Mossad (or any other ARAB intelligence agency), MI6 or any country in South America doesn't carry out less public assassinations then we are really silly.

The only difference in this is the World's Most Wanted Man © has had his death paraded publically for effect.

[dave birch]

Colin, we have in Abbottabad ( I love that name given our leader of the opposition is called Abbott) a military installation, presumably the Pakistanis would consider its security to be of some importance. I'd assume that they'd have some interest in a building approximately one kilometre away, with metre thick and four metre high walls and think that something might be worth having a look at.

You've got to remember that the Pakistanis in the north have a few problems at the moment.

As to your comment about world war 11, apparently the Brits wanted to summarily execute the Nazis they had caught, but were persuaded by the US to put them to trial at Nuremburg.

I'd suggest, that until all information about OBL's demise is in the public domain and verified as correct then all that is being written is nothing more than speculation.

My own view? If you are correct about his method of departure, it's about the same that he and his cohorts offered to the many that he dispatched to the afterlife.

He did have an alternative with his life.

Like I said earlier, "Live by the sword, die by the sword"

[Paul]

Moving on. Does anyone else have worrieds that the USA has sent an assasination squad into a sovereign country to kill people? If OBL (hope the spelling is still to everyone's satisfaction) had shaved off his beard and was living in (say) Dewsbury; wearing spectacles & a suit & the USA helicoptered in a hit squad, shot him in the head & then scarpered would the UK be happy?

I mentioned this back on page 3. It seems most of the world us too busy celebrating to notice the implications of these actions.

The USA purports, along with others notably the UK, to be defending democracy and bringing freedom to places like Iraq. Apparently democratic governments support entering foreign countries and assassinating unarmed individuals.

It would seem a whole lot cheaper, and save thousands of lives, if we simply shot the likes of Saddam, Ghadafi etc. and left the population to get on with life. After all we are the bastion of democracy.

Many people in the West by their celebratory attitude show themselves no better than those who celebrate the murder of innocent Westerners. I'd love to understand why America thinks she has the right to go stomping all around the world in the name of democracy, what is the next action people will find acceptable in the name of democracy and freedom?

It really would be cheaper, simpler and probably a lot safer if we just allow the USA to assassinate anyone the West doesn't really like. They'd all soon learn the lesson without all this messy war business.

[thenodrog]

Yes, OK, but why? Why would the Pakistani authorities be especially interested in a building just because it's close to an academy. This is what I've been banging on about. I'm not trying to twist your words, I don't want to do that at all. All I want to understand is why anyone thinks that just because OBL was within 5 miles of a military academy he should have been spotted before. Is there a mileage limit between OBL and this academy after which it's OK for the Pakistani authorities to have not known?

There is no logic to OBL hiding in Abbotabad of his own accord. Walls have ears everywhere and you are doing the Pakistani intelligence a massive disservice by suggesting they knew nothing of his refuge. If he wanted to avoid detection it would have been almost the last place that he would have sought refuge after the Pentagon! Alternatively if the Pakistani's had wanted to avoid him being detected it's the first place they would put him. A town with intense security and permanent roadblocks etc.

The kindest spin that I can put on your argument is that he was under some kind of 'unofficial' house arrest by the Pakistani's. The next questions then has to be 'why'? Why would they risk the wrath of the west? Putting my conspiracy theory hat on.....

Why would the Pakistanis still see any value in keeping him alive anyway once they had presumably debriefed him about Al Quaida, who if we believe reports are as much a bother to Pakistan as to everybody else?

Western intelligence apparently discovered his whereabouts a couple of years ago so has Obama kept this up his sleeve and buy the Pakistani's and do a deal to boost his flagging popularity in the US? (If so Nick Clegg must be kicking himself this morning! )

Did OBL know too much about other individuals and other governments? Hence the Pakistani's insisting that he be executed rather than capturing him in return for them shopping him and turning a blind eye?

There's a hundred and one theories out there waiting for Hollywood..... In fact could some Hollywood studio with flagging fortunes actually have funded this affair?

Over to you Col.

[BiggusLaddus]

Yes, OK, but why? Why would the Pakistani authorities be especially interested in a building just because it's close to an academy. This is what I've been banging on about. I'm not trying to twist your words, I don't want to do that at all. All I want to understand is why anyone thinks that just because OBL was within 5 miles of a military academy he should have been spotted before. Is there a mileage limit between OBL and this academy after which it's OK for the Pakistani authorities to have not known?

What is this mileage limit? Who invented it?

Do you think it would pass unnoticed if 'someone' was to build a big house, surrounded by high walls, next to Sandhurst?

Pakistan have already admitted that it is embarrasing for them to not know he was there. What is more likely, that the ISI never bothered to have it checked out, or that some members of the organisation knew full well who was there and kept schtum? Particularly when they have been long suspected of helping islamic terrorists.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-isi-inter-services-intelligence - Report from the Guardian on a leaked US document from 2007, describing the ISI as having links with terrorist organisations.

[Al]

My opinion is that the Pakistani authorities thought it better to leave him alone. They did not want the West to see them actively backing him but feared reprisals from his supporters if they dobbed him in. They were trying to please everybody but pleased nobody.

[BuckyRover]

I don't know whether the ISI knew about him. But I do agree with Colin (on this point, not the shipman thing) 5 miles is not "nearby". Planning regulations are fairly lax in Pakistan, tax is rarely collected and you are left to your own devices. That is probably why he was there.

I imagine "some" people knew about it, I don't buy that it was a massive conspiracy by the Pakistan authorities. (not that they are saints, I just don't think they have been harbouring Osama.

Also people saying he was dead already, an interesting view but who the hell is this 10 year old girl who is saying she saw the US shoot her dad, Osama.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[DE.]

Also people saying he was dead already, an interesting view but who the hell is this 10 year old girl who is saying she saw the US shoot her dad, Osama.

Difficult question because as of yet we've only got the ever-changing American side of the story which is about as reliable as Vince Grella playing two games on the trot.

The problem with arguing against conspiracy theories is that if one question is knocked down five others are levelled back at you. It's best to just ignore most of them - though the evidence for OBL dying in 2001 is certainly interesting and varied if nothing else. I don't think it can be dismissed completely at the moment, The Power of Nightmares was an interesting documentary which detailed the reasons for keeping the OBL symbol 'alive'.

[tony gale's mic]

60 years huh? Israel's only been a country for a similar length of time. Japan and the FDR were only created post WW2 also. No special natural resources but they've 'got on' haven't they?

btw Is it possible that you could make a single post without including an insult? You have become mighty unpopular on here recently because of your supercilious and insulting manner. I don't know if you are related but copying Jim's style is not big and it's not clever. Let me give you a tip tgm which I try to employ when I post... post only what you would say to someone face to face.

Israel is the biggest recipient of American foreign aid.

Japan was only created post WWII? :lol: Jesus. Who do you think invaded Manchuria?

I'd probably say a lot worse face to face to be honest, there's certain words I can't use on here. Would you go upto a Pakistani gentleman and tell him the things about his country that you say on here?

No, thought not.

And you, lecturing someone else on forum popularity. I'll leave you to consider how idiotic that is.

[thenodrog]

Israel is the biggest recipient of American foreign aid.

I'M NOT SUPRISED IT'S A SAFE PAIR OF HANDS AND ANY AID WILL NO DOUBT BE USED WISELY. ONLY A FOOL WOULD WANT TO GIVE AID AND EXPECT ANYTHING IN RETURN TO ANY COUNTRY ENDING IN STAN.

Japan was only created post WWII? :lol: Jesus. Who do you think invaded Manchuria?

THAT WAS THE THE EMPIRE OF JAPAN. IT WAS REPLACED WITH THE STATE OF JAPAN SOON AFTER WW2. ( I thought you might have known that TGM. Obviously I was mistaken.)

I'd probably say a lot worse face to face to be honest, there's certain words I can't use on here. Would you go upto a Pakistani gentleman and tell him the things about his country that you say on here?

No, thought not.

ERRR... I HAVEN'T ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. HAVE YOU GOT AN IMAGINARY FRIEND SHARING YOUR LIFE?

And you, lecturing someone else on forum popularity. I'll leave you to consider how idiotic that is.

btw I'm intrigued.... How many times a day do you call other posters idiotic?

[Guest roverite1991]

Re: the evidence that he died in 2001, I did think that his beard has appeared darker in some recent videos than previous ones. Perhaps he HAS been dead all this time. But, hey, same outcome. The feckers DEAD! BRILL!!

[tony gale's mic]

.

I'M NOT SUPRISED IT'S A SAFE PAIR OF HANDS AND ANY AID WILL NO DOUBT BE USED WISELY. ONLY A FOOL WOULD WANT TO GIVE AID AND EXPECT ANYTHING IN RETURN TO ANY COUNTRY ENDING IN STAN

I don't think you understand the difference between "aid" and "investment". The UK gives plenty of aid to Africa each year but doesn't expect that much in return. The fact that the US still gives Israel, a relatively prosperous country, aid is indicative of an underlying disproportionate influence of the Israeli lobby within the US whilst also a fundamental reason why Israel has stayed so prosperous over the years. But that's a different topic altogether.

THAT WAS THE THE EMPIRE OF JAPAN. IT WAS REPLACED WITH THE STATE OF JAPAN SOON AFTER WW2. ( I thought you might have known that TGM. Obviously I was mistaken.)

You really, really, really are stupid. When I call someone stupid, I don't just do it for no reason. I usually explain why.

Japan was called Japan in common parlance before WWII, and it was called Japan post WWII. The fact it changed from "Empire" to "State" merely reflected a constitutional change within that country. You stated that "Japan" only was created post WWII, which is quite clearly a ridiculous statement to make.

"Pakistan" didn't even exist as a word until 1933 and the country wasn't an independent country until 1948.

I would expect you, yes, even you, to see the gargantuan difference between the two, and why Japan is an ancient country despite constitutional changes; and Pakistan a relatively new one.

btw I'm intrigued.... How many times a day do you call other posters idiotic?

Well theno, if your Alzheimer's didn't rob you of your ability to use a computer, then you'd be able to use the search function too. And a quick query shows that I've called other posters idiotic around 10-11 times in five years on this board. About twice a year. You must be honoured to have recieved one of these.

[cletus]

He`s ^^^ still a charmer aint he

[thenodrog]

He`s ^^^ still a charmer aint he

I'm putting it all down to this cletus.....

http://www.smallpenissyndrome.net/

[thenodrog]

"Pakistan" didn't even exist as a word until 1933 and the country wasn't an independent country until 1948.

I would expect you, yes, even you, to see the gargantuan difference between the two, and why Japan is an ancient country despite constitutional changes; and Pakistan a relatively new one.

I bow to your superior knowledge oh wise one. But I am a little perplexed by it.

So tell me Master Po given that Japan was always where it is and the massive political upheavel meant so little, just where was Pakistan and it's population lurking for so many centuries before the lot was scooped up and wedged to a spot between India and Afghanistan and kick started into existence?

Slartibartfast a few millenia late defining the boundaries was he?

[92er]

"Pakistan" didn't even exist as a word until 1933 and the country wasn't an independent country until 1948.

I think it was 1947.

[broadsword]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l2fGw-pP7g

[neekoy]

Didn't this blow over quickly......

[thenodrog]

Didn't this blow over quickly......

Are you sure it has done neekoy? I'm not. Organised terrorism does not happen overnight.