Wrestling Entertainment - we know, you don't have to tell us!

[Blue blood]

46 minutes ago, DE. said:

Yeah, me too. Her badass theme and stable made her an amazing heel, and she looks the part. There are a lot of people who dislike her in-ring style but I think it fits perfectly with her MMA-based character. I was always invested in her matches. The match she had with Sane at one of the Takeovers where Sane beat her for the title was brilliant. Really sad to see how Sane (and Asuka) have been wasted on the main roster, and Baszler losing like this to Lynch doesn't give me much hope for her. Am I the only one who hates WWE trying to make Lynch into the female Stone Cold? It's so transparent and lame.

Agree. Vince really doesn't get the organic and fan led thing whatsoever. 

46 minutes ago, DE. said:

I don't think Vince gives a shit about NXT and I don't think he cares about what anybody has accomplished down there. Generally speaking the people who have done the best after going to the main roster are those who didn't have a huge impact in NXT. I swear Vince sees success in NXT as a bad thing. Can't understand why he treats the call ups so shoddily otherwise.

Agree that the call ups are shoddily handled. Perhaps it doesn't help by having an overly large roster (one of the benefits of NXT becoming more prominent is people can stay in the brand) but even so the majority of call ups are handled appallingly. Look at Ricochet, the guy had it all and did some stuff which was literally incredible, and yet he is just lost in the shuffle.A guy who can do it all, and on top of that can do some high flying things no one else can do, and he's stagnating. Terrible. Or the Viking Raiders, or should I say experience. The natural successors to Legion of Doom, and they've done hardly anything. Likewise AOP. Even Black is only doing ok due to lack of meaningful feuds. It is worrying that those who do less well in NXT of late, do better on the main roster. Heavy Machinery or War Raiders, Alexa Bliss or Asuka, it's all a bit odd really. That said, when Vince, finally hands over, things should be incredible with the level of talent they are producing/attracting and the quality of NXT.     

46 minutes ago, DE. said:

Titus' slip is the best and only good thing to come out of these stupid Saudi shows. I have to admit I found it hilarious that when the Saudis asked for Yokozuna (apparently not knowing he was dead) WWE brought in some random sumo to play the part. Just emphasises what a farce the whole thing is.

Yes, it is a farce that sadly, as you said, matters. It's a farce that destroyed the world championship at Wrestlemania this year, so it's a costly and damaging farce.  

46 minutes ago, DE. said:

Asuka has a huge upside but since losing her undefeated streak to Charlotte a couple of years back has gone into a downward spiral and never really come back. She was awesome in NXT but now is just another wrestler, much like Kairi. 

They could have used her losing the streak to drive her to show that she is the best, or go crazy heel, or mow through people and get a shot at redemption. Lots of ways a loss could have been played successfully but it was horribly botched. 

46 minutes ago, DE. said:

We've seen so much of Owens and Rollins in the build up (including those never-ending multi-man tags) that the feud already felt tired before the match even happened imo. It also hurt the match that nothing was really on the line. Owens beat Rollins - and what? Are there any consequences? I imagine it'll be as you were on Raw which makes the match itself kind of pointless. No stakes. I've said before that Rollins really reminds me of Hollywood Hogan back in the WCW days as far as his heel work goes - but whenever Hogan wrestled there were always huge stakes involved. Usually the title as 95% of the time he was the champion. But even if not there was always something big to gain from beating him. That isn't the case with Seth so it was hard for me to get especially invested in seeing Owens win. 

Perhaps because I don't watch Raw it felt more fresh to me. But yes, they massively overplayed their hand on this one. Still a good match imo, especially when taken at face value, but the 329 tag matches they've been involved in together can only have devalued it. 

28 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

I think IX gets a bit of a bad rap (largely thanks to Hogan), but Tatanka v Michaels and the Steiners v Headshrinkers were both miles better than anything on show last night.

Terrible ending to Michaels vs Tatanka, and the rest of the show, bar the Steiners (who were incredible imo) stunk. I think given where the company was that year, and sandwiched between 2 strong manias, it really should have done better. No great matches, lots of terrible results and finishes - a poor show all round. Would say that the Rollins-Owens, ladder match, possibly the tag match and the all too brief Bazler-Lynch match were all better than the majority of WM9. .That said the product has come on leaps and bounds so it's very hard to compare eras. 

28 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

I always had 2 down as the worst ever until now. Different times I know, but I think that the repetitive nature of the modern product really doesn’t help... so few of the matches feel like a culmination of a well built feud. If we haven’t seen them a dozen times already, we will see them on TV again within a fortnight. The lack of a crowd hurts the matches immensely for me personally. I thought they may have found a way around it with the Boneyard, but they failed. So much of it was standard WWE fare, unsurprisingly I thought Zayn and Bryan made the best of it. They have varied experience. Bryan worked the holiday camp circuit over here, both well travelled and paid their dues on the indies... they are able to adapt unlike Corbin and Elias, for example.

Interesting as a kid, watching WM2 I liked it. Looking back with a more critical eye, I can see it's flaws, and there are some stinkers on there, but at the time it was something I enjoyed.. Mind you I appreciate a 7 or 8 year old isn't that discerning! I actually think there's some better quality and variety in WM2 then WM1. Funnily enough it was a lot later when I watched WM1, so perhaps it wasn't a fair comparison. On WM2, I thought the battle royal, the Bulldogs title victory, Steamboat-Hercules, the Funks tag match and the cage match all were solid in capturing  the interest and a decent showing. If WM1 gets a pass in terms of product for being experimental, I feel WM2 should get some leeway too. 

28 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

The two matches that could salvage things somewhat tonight are, in my opinion, Edge and Orton and Cena v Wyatt. Unfortunately after last night I’m not holding out much hope.

Agree these are the two I am most looking forward to. There's the bonus from the Fiend-Cena match that the winner isn't a forgone conclusion (although going with The Fiend). In front of a crowd Lesnar-MacIntyre would be pretty good too. Am quite a fan of MacIntyre's work since he returned to the company. 

Incidentally I went to a house show six years ago. If you'd have told me then that two 3MB would be world champions I would not have believed you. That said, the house show was good and they were part of it. But yeah, wouldn't have clocked that 3MB would produce world champions. 

[Miller11]

Funny you should say that, last time I saw Drew McIntyre (or Galloway as he was at the time) live was at Preston Guild Hall against ASHA Samuels for the PCW title. He was literally crashing over the row of chairs behind me. Absolutely brilliant to see how he has turned his career round.

I thought 2 had some good moments, but was massively hampered by the multiple venues. Those matches you highlighted being the pick. To be honest I prefer a lot of older wrestling to the modern product. While the athleticism is on a different level today, I think a lot of the psychology has been lost nowadays. This is amplified by a lack of crowd to feed off and play to. As I mentioned before as well, I find it really difficult to get interested in a lot of matches these days, due to the over saturation and the lack of build. I concede I might be being harsh on some of the matches last night, but (mostly due to circumstances beyond the wrestlers control) these were mostly bog standard at best, and there just isn’t a Wrestlemania feel to it. I really wish they had cancelled and done a two day super Wrestlemania around Summerslam time... none of the matches would’ve been hurt with a slower build. I think the whole lockdown product needs a massive rethink in all honesty.

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, Miller11 said:

Funny you should say that, last time I saw Drew McIntyre (or Galloway as he was at the time) live was at Preston Guild Hall against ASHA Samuels for the PCW title. He was literally crashing over the row of chairs behind me. Absolutely brilliant to see how he has turned his career round.

Yeah from the guild hall to headlining Wrestlemania - that's some turn around. Likewise glad he has made it. 

Quote

I thought 2 had some good moments, but was massively hampered by the multiple venues. Those matches you highlighted being the pick.

The multiple venues was an experiment that didn't work. Commentary was hurt badly and it forced a number of matches onto the card that otherwise shouldn't have been on, to represent each venue. 

Quote

 

To be honest I prefer a lot of older wrestling to the modern product. While the athleticism is on a different level today, I think a lot of the psychology has been lost nowadays.  This is amplified by a lack of crowd to feed off and play to. As I mentioned before as well, I find it really difficult to get interested in a lot of matches these days, due to the over saturation and the lack of build.

 

Yeah no doubt these are current problems. Having Raw each week for 3 hours is the biggest challenge of keeping things fresh as it's a lot of time to fill. NXT and Smackdown do better with 2 hours although it is still a bit of a problem. Also it's not just the lack of build it's the constant chopping and changing of direction. 

Take the Rusev Lana Lashley angle. Whatever you thought about it the casual fan was into it but there was no blow off match, no consequences to the couple of matches they had, and that was one of the more developed storylines. So yes, see your point entirely. 

It's a shame because as you say the athleticism is on another level. 

Quote

 

I concede I might be being harsh on some of the matches last night, but (mostly due to circumstances beyond the wrestlers control) these were mostly bog standard at best, and there just isn’t a Wrestlemania feel to it. I really wish they had cancelled and done a two day super Wrestlemania around Summerslam time... none of the matches would’ve been hurt with a slower build. I think the whole lockdown product needs a massive rethink in all honesty.

Not going to argue with you on postponement. Even though I may judge the show at a higher quality - there's still a clear gap from what it should be, even if you didn't change a single performance/things. Great things are looking good, good average and so on, and am not sure that is healthy for anything requiring viewers in the long run. 

[Miller11]

Charlotte Flair and Rhea Ripley with an absolute belter to start things off tonight!

[RevidgeBlue]

23 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Charlotte Flair and Rhea Ripley with an absolute belter to start things off tonight!

Only came in from work right at the end of that one but it certainly looked good.

Black v Lashley - who cares, in fact Lashley v anyone, who cares?

Ziegler v fat bloke - Oh dear.

Purchased this against my better judgement last night, more out of morbid curiosity as to how their flagship main event would translate to being behind closed doors.

On the evidence of last night - not very well, shows how important the crowd is.

Ordered it last night, it kicked off with a decent trailer showing some of the roster in a mythical adventure setting. Then it showed real life footage of them to "For those about to Rock we salute you' by AC/DC and I'm sat there with a beer thinking "Yeah I can really get into this".

Then on came an advert saying "Wrestlemania sponsored by Snickers" and it killed the moment stone dead for me.

Silly women's tag team match to start. Unlike comments above, I think Asuka is absolutely top class either as a baby face or a heel and should be at the top of the roster with Charlotte Flair instead of being wasted in mid range tag team matches. The less said about the other 3 the better. Nikki Cross in particular must be one of the worst professional wrestlers ever.

Another silly match followed, Corbyn v Elias, again who cares?

Becky Lynch v Baszler was the highlight of what I saw. Whilst I don't really get the obsession with Becky Lynch or "The Man" gimmick at all - (is it an age thing?) it was a great 10 mins of action. Disappointing accidental looking ending though, much like her win at Wrestlemania last year.

The ladder match - JHFC thought this was dire. Couldn't have cared less about any of the contestants and if you don't have very skilled operators who have got their timing exactly right it looks really contrived and you get the farcical situation where one of them is halfway up the ladder with no-one else in sight and about five minutes to get the belt and they have to somehow manage not to get it.

Halfway through that match I fell asleep. Annoyed I missed the Undertaker/Styles even though I find it difficult to invest in a big man/much smaller man feud.

Oh for the glory days of Hogan, the Ultimate Warrior, Earthquake, Rick Rude, Million Dollar Man, Savage Flair Undertaker in his prime etc. Plausible superheroes and dastardly heels. Jumpers for goalposts?

Looks like £20 largely wasted. Edge and Orton making an excellent first of it though.

 

 

[Miller11]

Charlotte Flair v Rhea Ripley

Brilliant. Best match of the weekend. Seen some people moaning that “Flair wouldn’t put Ripley over”... absolute nonsense. She’s elevated her massively here, as well as the entire NXT women’s division. The internet loves to make a noise about creating new stars, well, having a bonafide megastar lose frequently isn’t the way to do it. Flair is to Women’s wrestling what her Dad is to men’s.

 

Black v Lashley

This was a match. Adequate.

 

Otis v Ziggler

Surprisingly good. Basic story done pretty well. Pay off at the end. Otis has carved himself a nice little niche and offers some good light relief. Ziggler was Ziggler, which is a definite compliment.

 

Edge v Orton

Far too long. Went for epic but hit boring. Commentary really poor. I liked when Orton kept saying ‘no no no no no no no’. Any potential drama towards the end had evaporated as I was just willing someone to stay down for the 10. 
 

Street Profits v Gaza & Theory

Took a break and missed this. No desire to catch up.

 

5 Way

This was ok filler. Saw a potential twist in the tale rather than any culmination of anything.

 

Firefly Funhouse

Where to start with this. Presenting this as a match was a bad choice. This was like a modern day Hogan v Dungeon of Doom, an angle that has been unanimously shit on for 25 years. This will get widespread plaudits and absolutely panned... maybe not in equal measure. I hated it. In a different setting, presented differently some of this could be interesting and work. As it was it’s ridiculous rubbish. Bizarre how a fortnight after Matt Hardy leaves they decide to go all Matt Hardy. The GCSE coursework presentation was back too.

 

McIntyre v Lesnar

Typical Lesnar match. This format is getting old now, so I’m happy to see a title change. Very pleased for McIntyre too. Played out exactly as expected.

 

Overall verdict for Wrestlemania:

Should. Have. Postponed.

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Miller11

[RevidgeBlue]

I thought Edge v Orton was outstanding in the end, they both conveyed the impression that they pushed their bodies right to the edge and beyond.

The rest of what I saw was absolute garbage imo, bearing in mind I missed Flair and Ripley.

Also need to go back and watch the replay to catch Undertaker v Styles.

I'm sure they could have done a bit better with the  "main event". McIntyre survives 3 or 4 Lesnar finishes, hits 4 of his own, the end. Almost like they'd run out of time at the end. Surely they're not that short of stamina they can't do more than 4 minutes?

Overall really poor for me but that's what I expected anyway if I'm being honest.

Edited April 6, 2020 by RevidgeBlue

[Blue blood]

Well @Miller11 have to conceed you were right. Agree with 99% of what you say. 

Agree the Ripley v Flair match was excellent. My worry is bounce-back-ability after a loss to Charlotte. No shame in losing, and no harm necessarily, but Asuka never quite recovered from her loss. Hope Ripley isn't the same. 

Black v Lashley wasn't worthy of a PPV as the angle could have been done anywhere. Likewise the tag championship match. I mean when both challengers aren't even from Raw and it is not an invasion angle so there was zero chance of them winning and zero storyline. Get why they did it for Bianca but again could have been done anytime. 

Ziggler-Otis agree. It would have been much better with a crowd present though. Went from good to decent without a crowd reaction. 

Women's 5 way match. I quite liked this actually. Some good wrestling, logical narrative to the match. Right order of eliminations, leading to almost some uncertainty in who won, and long term storyline progression. 

Firefly fun house. Agree, garbage. Ok was quite amusing and as a vignette or part of the build up on Raw the novelty could have carried it. At WM as an epic confrontation it was just poor. 

Edge-Orton. First and last 10 minutes fantastic but the problem was there was about 15-20 minutes in the middle that dragged. Cut the march by a third or half and it would have been excellent. As it was it was solid. 

World title match - call me old fashioned but there's a school of thought title matches can be good. You know, more than 5 minutes, involve more than 3 moves, more than just repeated finishers, more storyline depth than a Topsy and Tim book. When Lesnar has his working boots on he has great matches. When phoning it in, then his matches are poor. This was the latter and another really poor WM main event. Even Drew lifting the title wasn't that good without an audience. 

So yeah. Should have postponed. Should have cut the filler. Would have been miles better in front of an audience. 

Most frustrating is they could have had a very good WM on their hands. Keep in the women's title matches from both nights, Rollins-Owers, put Taker-AJ in a proper match (or Fiend-Cena instead, Taker may be getting past it), take 15 minutes of Edge and Orton, have Otis-Ziggler and the Drew Lesnar matches in for crowd reaction and boom. Good WM on our hands. Even without a crowd that would have been a solid event.

As it was there was a lot of filler, match timings weren't quite right and the things included to wow a crowd, understandably didn't.

[DE.]

My thoughts on night two...

Rhea Vs Charlotte - good match, as expected. I don't think Rhea suffered by losing, and I imagine she will eventually get the title back from Charlotte and look great in doing so.

Black vs Lashley - a Raw match. Hard to care about it considering the lack of build up.

Ziggler Vs Otis - if you've enjoyed the Mandy Rose storyline then I guess this was fine. Nothing special.

Edge Vs Orton - should have been cut by at least ten minutes - overstayed its welcome but could have been very good if it wasn't so long. The ending was really good though.

Street Profits Vs Theory & Garza - a Raw match. Whatever. Total time filler.

Women's 5 Way - again hard to care about any of the participants considering how little they've been effectively utilised in the past year or so. Bayley's title reign has been awful. 

Cena/Wyatt - I don't even know what this was. I thought the Boneyard match was enjoyable, but this was just weird and stupid. There is suspension of disbelief and then there is total nonsense and this was on the total nonsense end of the scale. It will have people talking because of how utterly out there it was, but it went way too far into absurdity imo. With that said I did laugh out loud at the "such good shit" line from Vince. Don't tell me WWE doesn't pay attention to the IWC. What was up with the WCW/nWo flashback sequence? The rest of the segment kind of made sense in a warped way, but the WCW part came out of nowhere and I didn't understand what the point of it was. This was just a bizarre acid trip with way more misses than hits.

Lesnar Vs Reigns, er, McIntyre - we've seen this before. The whole Lesnar experiment went stale a very long time ago. Judging by this match they have little to nothing left creatively for him. I hope he is kept away from the title for a long time. There are still things that can be done with Lesnar but he's run his course as champion. Match overall was basic and underwhelming. Would have been better in front of a crowd but even then the above criticisms would still be there for me.

I think I preferred night one overall. WM without a crowd was, as I expected, tepid and lacking energy. I feel bad for Edge and Drew especially for having their 'big' moments in this kind of environment. 

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Were they trying to say that Cena always wondered if a heel turn for him would have been as successful as Hogan's? 

[DE.]

https://streamable.com/2waocj - 8 seconds of total insanity. John Cena coming out cosplaying Hollywood Hogan on a ripoff WCW set, whilst a buzzard puppet representing Macho Man and a parody puppet of Vince saying "such good shit" are watching. WTF. 

[DE.]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Were they trying to say that Cena always wondered if a heel turn for him would have been as successful as Hogan's? 

I think that was the intention, Hogan was 42 when he turned heel and Cena is also 42 at the moment so it kind of ties in. Reading more about the match (on reddit, obviously) it seems like it was meant to be a psychological deconstruction of Cena's fears and doubts. In a bubble it's actually kind of cool but still way too out there for me to take seriously. 

[Miller11]

2 minutes ago, DE. said:

I think that was the intention, Hogan was 42 when he turned heel and Cena is also 42 at the moment so it kind of ties in. Reading more about the match (on reddit, obviously) it seems like it was meant to be a psychological deconstruction of Cena's fears and doubts. In a bubble it's actually kind of cool but still way too out there for me to take seriously. 

There were definitely some interesting elements that could have been built into a long running programme between the two. Wyatt getting into Cena’s head would make for great build up, but using this as part of a ‘wrestling match’ is so stupid.

[Blue blood]

25 minutes ago, DE. said:

My thoughts on night two...

Women's 5 Way - again hard to care about any of the participants considering how little they've been effectively utilised in the past year or so. Bayley's title reign has been awful. 

One of the problems has been that very few of the women have storylines/meaningful feuds outside of the title picture (and even then the storytelling isn't great). It's hard to be invested when the characters mean so little. That said, as a piece of action, for me I enjoyed it and thought it was good. Perhaps again not watching Smackdown helped me as I hadn't had chance to disengage from poor characters. 

Contrast this with NXT. The battle royal they had for the no 1 contendership set off another 3 or 4 matches 

 

25 minutes ago, DE. said:

Cena/Wyatt - I don't even know what this was. I thought the Boneyard match was enjoyable, but this was just weird and stupid. There is suspension of disbelief and then there is total nonsense and this was on the total nonsense end of the scale. It will have people talking because of how utterly out there it was, but it went way too far into absurdity imo. With that said I did laugh out loud at the "such good shit" line from Vince. Don't tell me WWE doesn't pay attention to the IWC. What was up with the WCW/nWo flashback sequence? The rest of the segment kind of made sense in a warped way, but the WCW part came out of nowhere and I didn't understand what the point of it was. This was just a bizarre acid trip with way more misses than hits.

Great discription. For me the boneyard match was too far from suspension of disbelief but you are right that this way way, way beyond that. Terrible and to think that took up 10-15 minutes on the greatest show of them all...

25 minutes ago, DE. said:

Lesnar Vs Reigns, er, McIntyre - we've seen this before. The whole Lesnar experiment went stale a very long time ago. Judging by this match they have little to nothing left creatively for him. I hope he is kept away from the title for a long time. There are still things that can be done with Lesnar but he's run his course as champion. Match overall was basic and underwhelming. Would have been better in front of a crowd but even then the above criticisms would still be there for me.

Yeah. The lack of a crowd hurt but wouldn't have made either title match good. I mean it's not so hard to do a decent to good title match even with limited wrestlers. Hogan made a thing out of doing it. Just tell a bit of a sodding story even if the wrestling is basic. 

My mind goes back to WM7 and the 2 big matches from that. Hogan-Slaughter saw two very limited wrestlers but they told a solid story over 10-12 minutes or so. And didn't devalue their finishers in the process. Then Warrior-Savage match saw them throw all their stuff at each other and the kitchen sink. Only after that did Savage drop all his flying elbows which Warrior kicked out of. That's how you book a kicking out of finisher. In contrast to this the match and story telling in the Wrestlemania main event was terrible, crowd or no crowd. 

25 minutes ago, DE. said:

I think I preferred night one overall. WM without a crowd was, as I expected, tepid and lacking energy. I feel bad for Edge and Drew especially for having their 'big' moments in this kind of environment. 

 

Agree. Especially Drew who hasn't had any others. 

Shame that as with many programmes the potential is there but they just don't pull it off. 

[DE.]

2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

One of the problems has been that very few of the women have storylines/meaningful feuds outside of the title picture (and even then the storytelling isn't great). It's hard to be invested when the characters mean so little. That said, as a piece of action, for me I enjoyed it and thought it was good. Perhaps again not watching Smackdown helped me as I hadn't had chance to disengage from poor characters. 

Contrast this with NXT. The battle royal they had for the no 1 contendership set off another 3 or 4 matches 

Agreed, the match itself was good (although I'm not sure why Tamina was there) but it can only reach a certain level when the characters aren't interesting enough to be invested in. All of the wrestlers except Tamina have a big upside and the potential to be great, but WWE aren't giving them the opportunity to deliver that at the moment.

2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Great discription. For me the boneyard match was too far from suspension of disbelief but you are right that this way way, way beyond that. Terrible and to think that took up 10-15 minutes on the greatest show of them all...

I can give the Boneyard match a pass as it was at least based in reality - everything that happened there was plausible within the context of the WWE universe. The problem with the Funhouse "match" was that it was based in a fantasy world completely seperate from WWE. It was so far removed from normality that it became unrealistic to the point of taking me out of the moment and unable to suspend my disbelief in any way. It was like something out of a weird skit show or an Adult Swim feature. I give them credit for trying something different and a lot of people seemed to enjoy it, but for me it was just... weird. The idea isn't a bad one but the execution was too much for me to be able to take seriously.

2 hours ago, Miller11 said:

There were definitely some interesting elements that could have been built into a long running programme between the two. Wyatt getting into Cena’s head would make for great build up, but using this as part of a ‘wrestling match’ is so stupid.

I guess part of the problem is that Cena isn't around for long running programs anymore, so they have to squeeze everything into a few short weeks and just one match. I do appreciate their attempt to think outside the box and be creative, but personally I felt it went overboard into absurd territory. 

2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Yeah. The lack of a crowd hurt but wouldn't have made either title match good. I mean it's not so hard to do a decent to good title match even with limited wrestlers. Hogan made a thing out of doing it. Just tell a bit of a sodding story even if the wrestling is basic. 

When you consider this was all taped and there was plenty of opportunity for editing and retakes, it came across as lazy and formulaic to me, similar to the Goldberg/Strowman match which was basically the exact same thing. A bunch of finishers and a pin. I get that in a live setting with limited wrestlers you may need to do that, but you don't need to make it so simple in the type of environment they were in. Just very disappointing. I am glad at least that the title is off Lesnar now.

[Mike E]

I've researched the Cena Wyatt 'match', and after initially hating it, I quite like it if I view it as an extended promo.

It's basically a complete and utter destruction of Cena as a persona. Ties in well to what the Fiend is capable of.

As a match though, yeah, bullshit.

[DE.]

If WWE was something other than WWE it would have been great - but unfortunately what they presented doesn't fit in with their universe in any way, shape or form. Even Undertaker and Kane at their wackiest never went to those levels. You never saw Undertaker literally taking Stone Cold to hell or some kind of demonic realm of existence. The matches were always based in reality - casket matches, boiler room brawls, buried alive matches, etc. Even when Taker was crucifying Austin and trying to embalm him it was all within current reality - albeit totally ridiculous for obvious reasons. The most you ever got in terms of outlandish stuff was lightning bolts every so often which was silly but still existed in our actual plane of reality.

We are meant to accept here that Bray Wyatt not only has access to an alternate reality but that WWE cameramen were there filming the whole thing and broadcasting it. That kind of shit only really flies if you're a kid - yet the relative complexity of the segment in terms of what it was conveying is beyond what a child could make sense of. 

I'm always so-so on hokey stuff in wrestling, but this reminded me of the Dungeon of Doom type bullshit that infested WCW in 1995. Remember Hogan teleporting to the Dungeon's realm and the classic "it's NOT hot" line? This was just as bad, but people are so desperate for something, anything different from WWE that this nonsense is embraced rather than ridiculed. It's a bit of a sad state of affairs in truth but at the same time if somebody genuinely liked it then that's cool. It just wasn't for me. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by DE.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Might be worthwhile if Cena was actually turning heel and coming back full time off the back of it, but I can't see that happening. 

Like say this got in his head so much, that he goes bad, bit the effects wear off when Wyatt is beaten or disappears. It would give an out then and they could make out that the regular Cena didn't actually go bad. It was mind control or something. 

Anyway, they should never have taken the belt off Wyatt if Reigns wasn't going to take it. They should have had Wyatt win it back off Goldberg. 

On that, the rematch clause is a real load of inconsistent bullshit. 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Vinjay]

3 hours ago, Mike E said:

I've researched the Cena Wyatt 'match', and after initially hating it, I quite like it if I view it as an extended promo.

It's basically a complete and utter destruction of Cena as a persona. Ties in well to what the Fiend is capable of.

As a match though, yeah, bullshit.

Sounds more like "epic rap battles of history" than a match. Speaking of that check this out particularly 0:32-0:38. 

 

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Might be worthwhile if Cena was actually turning heel and coming back full time off the back of it, but I can't see that happening. 

Like say this got in his head so much, that he goes bad, bit the effects wear off when Wyatt is beaten or disappears. It would give an out then and they could make out that the regular Cena didn't actually go bad. It was mind control or something. 

Anyway, they should never have taken the belt off Wyatt if Reigns wasn't going to take it. They should have had Wyatt win it back off Goldberg. 

On that, the rematch clause is a real load of inconsistent bullshit. 

They tried to kibosh the whole rematch clause thing a while back by saying it didn't exist anymore, but then started referencing it again in storylines shortly afterwards because it's WWE and they think we're all idiots who forget everything after a week has passed.

IMO Wyatt should never have been given the title. It doesn't suit his character much like it never really suited the old-school Undertaker character. Most wrestlers should be there to win whatever title they're going for, but sometimes it's okay to have a guy (or girl) who is there just to wreak havoc or wreck people. That should be what Wyatt's character is all about. That's not to say he couldn't have had a title run at some point, but it didn't have to be so soon. In typical WWE fashion they hot-shotted the belt onto him because he got over big and then didn't have much of an idea about what to do afterwards. 

Wyatt didn't need the title and shouldn't have been given it. Also shouldn't have been beaten at least until WrestleMania, if not even longer than that. 

The thing I hate the most about what they've done with the character is the hocus-pocus, supernatural bullshit. It's exactly the same fuck up they made with Bray's original character. He was originally a creepy cult leader who used his words to entice and frighten people. Then he started gaining magic powers just because, and the whole thing became ridiculous. Obviously not helped by him losing practically every feud he ever engaged in. This new character started off as a creepy children's TV show host with a sinister and evil split-personality which was extremely vicious and almost impervious to pain. Cool. Now they're doing the supernatural powers thing again and I'm facepalming again. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by DE.

[Bigdoggsteel]

24 minutes ago, DE. said:

They tried to kibosh the whole rematch clause thing a while back by saying it didn't exist anymore, but then started referencing it again in storylines shortly afterwards because it's WWE and they think we're all idiots who forget everything after a week has passed.

IMO Wyatt should never have been given the title. It doesn't suit his character much like it never really suited the old-school Undertaker character. Most wrestlers should be there to win whatever title they're going for, but sometimes it's okay to have a guy (or girl) who is there just to wreak havoc or wreck people. That should be what Wyatt's character is all about. That's not to say he couldn't have had a title run at some point, but it didn't have to be so soon. In typical WWE fashion they hot-shotted the belt onto him because he got over big and then didn't have much of an idea about what to do afterwards. 

Wyatt didn't need the title and shouldn't have been given it. Also shouldn't have been beaten at least until WrestleMania, if not even longer than that. 

The thing I hate the most about what they've done with the character is the hocus-pocus, supernatural bullshit. It's exactly the same fuck up they made with Bray's original character. He was originally a creepy cult leader who used his words to entice and frighten people. Then he started gaining magic powers just because, and the whole thing became ridiculous. Obviously not helped by him losing practically every feud he ever engaged in. This new character started off as a creepy children's TV show host with a sinister and evil split-personality which was extremely vicious and almost impervious to pain. Cool. Now they're doing the supernatural powers thing again and I'm facepalming again. 

I like me a bit of the supernatural stuff ? it is very out of joint with WWE and the rest of their show though. 

[DE.]

13 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I like me a bit of the supernatural stuff ? it is very out of joint with WWE and the rest of their show though. 

In small doses it's okay, but they always have to go overboard with it. That's true for almost everything they do though!

[DE.]

Also I just watched the Wyatt/Cena thing again and the thing that makes it difficult to accept as a serious piece if how hammy and silly some of Cena's acting is. The "ruthless aggression" part especially comes off as trying to be funny rather than disturbed or unstable. Wyatt plays his part well but Cena hams it up to make it come off as goofy. 

[Mike E]

In general, Wyatt's Fiend character should only be able to beat those who's weakness is having a better previous persona. A twisted, but justified, method of improving other wrestlers.

Ties in well with every opponent post-Wyatt match. Only lost to Goldberg because Goldberg is still all he ever was, a squash wrestler.

[Bigdoggsteel]

The Matt Hardy stuff is bizzare in AEW, ain't it? Just watched it there.