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[DE.]

10 minutes ago, Mike E said:

In general, Wyatt's Fiend character should only be able to beat those who's weakness is having a better previous persona. A twisted, but justified, method of improving other wrestlers.

Ties in well with every opponent post-Wyatt match. Only lost to Goldberg because Goldberg is still all he ever was, a squash wrestler.

There's a lot of really cool directions they could have gone with the Fiend character, but instead he's just some unhinged supernatural being with no obvious purpose who can only be beaten by Goldberg. Honestly I may even have gone to the extent of not having him wrestle - kind of like Crow Sting in 1997 - or only have him wrestle on very rare occasions and for very specific reasons. Wyatt isn't particularly good in the ring so limit his time there and instead focus on the things he excels at - namely promos and creative segments.

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

The Matt Hardy stuff is bizzare in AEW, ain't it? Just watched it there. 

I've never been big on the Matt Hardy stuff and I don't think the Broken character fits into AEW very well. I am willing to give it a chance but it really doesn't mesh with the more reality-based product they are trying to portray. 

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

They tried to kibosh the whole rematch clause thing a while back by saying it didn't exist anymore, but then started referencing it again in storylines shortly afterwards because it's WWE and they think we're all idiots who forget everything after a week has passed.

IMO Wyatt should never have been given the title. It doesn't suit his character much like it never really suited the old-school Undertaker character. Most wrestlers should be there to win whatever title they're going for, but sometimes it's okay to have a guy (or girl) who is there just to wreak havoc or wreck people. That should be what Wyatt's character is all about. That's not to say he couldn't have had a title run at some point, but it didn't have to be so soon. In typical WWE fashion they hot-shotted the belt onto him because he got over big and then didn't have much of an idea about what to do afterwards. 

Wyatt didn't need the title and shouldn't have been given it. Also shouldn't have been beaten at least until WrestleMania, if not even longer than that. 

The thing I hate the most about what they've done with the character is the hocus-pocus, supernatural bullshit. It's exactly the same fuck up they made with Bray's original character. He was originally a creepy cult leader who used his words to entice and frighten people. Then he started gaining magic powers just because, and the whole thing became ridiculous. Obviously not helped by him losing practically every feud he ever engaged in. This new character started off as a creepy children's TV show host with a sinister and evil split-personality which was extremely vicious and almost impervious to pain. Cool. Now they're doing the supernatural powers thing again and I'm facepalming again. 

The highlighted bits are why Wyatt struggled twice. Don't get me wrong I don't like the hocus pocus stuff either but at an even more simple level wins and loss and a clear direction matter even more.

He faced Rollins way too soon with little build up, harming the character and momentum. The story felt rushed  He then lost the title to someone most serious fans don't rate any more with equally little build up.  Neither of which were the big deal they should be - other than rectifying the worst hell in a cell result ever...

As an aside isn't it interesting the title win and loss both took place in Saudi. Without these shows there may have been a better storyline progression, with Bray raging about a title screwy finish at HIAC and getting redemption by destroying everyone in the Rumble 

Anyhow yeah the big problem for the current character is little storyline or rushed. Even the Miz Bryan angle could have run for longer as Bray played on the pairs animosity. That would have been a quality triple threat match slotted in as well. 

Then of course there's the win loss ratio. That killed his old character. Heck if he had just beaten either Reigns or Cena he would still be considered a threat. It's dead simple build people as monsters who can't be beaten and they matter and  fans take notice. If not fans are understandably underwhelmed. 

Thing is both gimmicks/characters work, even with the hocus pocus. Remember the Taker and the power of the urn? Warrior getting power from the ropes. I didn't like it as was too cheesy but it didn't hold either character back. What doesn't work however is poor storylines and regular losses. 

 

On a separate point the rematch clause is fine. Nothing wrong with it. It exists in real sports like boxing. It's plausible and makes sense. Also if you got rid of so many of the same matches on Raw the odd rematch would be fine. More than fine in fact. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

27 minutes ago, DE. said:

There's a lot of really cool directions they could have gone with the Fiend character, but instead he's just some unhinged supernatural being with no obvious purpose who can only be beaten by Goldberg. Honestly I may even have gone to the extent of not having him wrestle - kind of like Crow Sting in 1997 - or only have him wrestle on very rare occasions and for very specific reasons. Wyatt isn't particularly good in the ring so limit his time there and instead focus on the things he excels at - namely promos and creative segments.

I've never been big on the Matt Hardy stuff and I don't think the Broken character fits into AEW very well. I am willing to give it a chance but it really doesn't mesh with the more reality-based product they are trying to portray. 

No,it looked so out of place. The piano and everything, completely ridiculous looking without the crowd and everyone else playing it straight. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Watched Chris Jerichos promo from last week. Hilarious. Carrying the show a fair bit now. Some of the wrestling is still decent, but it's not the same without the crowd,or more importantly the proper commentary team.

[Miller11]

Newest episode of Dark Side of the Ring is on the Brawl For All. Well worth a watch!

[DE.]

As a kid I can remember being baffled by the Brawl For All. I knew wrestling was a work so I assumed the Brawl For All was as well - but it was mostly wrestlers people didn't really care about and they looked worse than when they were wrestling. Plus the crowd clearly hated it. It just confused me. 

It was cool seeing Bart Gunn and Butterbean's perspectives on their WM15 "match" as well. I watched that show recently and you can see Butterbean looks a bit embarrassed once the fight is over. 

Definitely one of if not the stupidest idea in wrestling history. You can put pretty much anything that's a work into a creative context and come up with some form of justification, but there is really none when it comes to the Brawl For All. I thought Vince McMahon got off a little lightly to be honest. They focused a lot on Russo and had Cornette bashing him as per - but that idea goes nowhere without McMahon being fully behind it. The fact he greenlit and continued on with it despite it clearly being a horrendous and poorly thought-out idea certainly doesn't paint Vinnie Mac in a very good light. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Jericho on commentary made this week's episode, although it was the best in a long time. What an asset Jericho is though. 

[DE.]

Yeah, Jericho on commentary was a riot, and Tony was great too. Jericho could have gone all out heel as some wrestlers do and just bury the faces and praise the heels, but he was very clever in giving plenty of compliments to the faces whilst still rooting for the heels. He never felt obnoxious or annoying, which just shows how intelligent he is and how much he gets the business. I can't remember what documentary it was but I can remember a wrestler saying that if all you do is bury your opponent in promos and make them out to be pathetic then it doesn't do you any favours. if you beat the guy then it doesn't mean as much because you've spent the entire time beforehand saying he sucks anyway, and if you lose then you look even worse. If you give your opponent his dues then either way you come out of the match with something. 

Overall I thought the episode was good, AEW are still doing really well without the live crowds. Putting wrestlers around ringside definitely helps with that. Tony Schiavone's "ohhh, hentaiii" commentary line will go down as a meme for sure. 

I thought Matt Hardy's promo was another miss though. I'm really not into what he's been doing so far. 

Also Shawn Spears getting pinned with the Figure 4 looked really weird. I can't remember that ever happening in the time I've been watching. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by DE.

[Blue blood]

12 hours ago, DE. said:

Yeah, Jericho on commentary was a riot, and Tony was great too. Jericho could have gone all out heel as some wrestlers do and just bury the faces and praise the heels, but he was very clever in giving plenty of compliments to the faces whilst still rooting for the heels. He never felt obnoxious or annoying, which just shows how intelligent he is and how much he gets the business. I can't remember what documentary it was but I can remember a wrestler saying that if all you do is bury your opponent in promos and make them out to be pathetic then it doesn't do you any favours. if you beat the guy then it doesn't mean as much because you've spent the entire time beforehand saying he sucks anyway, and if you lose then you look even worse. If you give your opponent his dues then either way you come out of the match with something. 

Overall I thought the episode was good, AEW are still doing really well without the live crowds. Putting wrestlers around ringside definitely helps with that. Tony Schiavone's "ohhh, hentaiii" commentary line will go down as a meme for sure. 

I thought Matt Hardy's promo was another miss though. I'm really not into what he's been doing so far. 

Also Shawn Spears getting pinned with the Figure 4 looked really weird. I can't remember that ever happening in the time I've been watching. 

Ricky Steamboat was pinned by Ric Flair in it a few months before Hogan joined WCW on a spring time PPV. Both wrestlers shoulders were down the video analysis showed and so they redid the match which Flair won clean. 

Not watched any AEW. Feel it looks and sounds good from what I hear but not sure I want/can afford to shell out for that and the network. 

[DE.]

25 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Ricky Steamboat was pinned by Ric Flair in it a few months before Hogan joined WCW on a spring time PPV. Both wrestlers shoulders were down the video analysis showed and so they redid the match which Flair won clean. 

Not watched any AEW. Feel it looks and sounds good from what I hear but not sure I want/can afford to shell out for that and the network. 

I think the weird thing about the Cody/Spears Figure 4 pin was that Spears was clearly still conscious and moving around. It looked like it should have been easy for him to lift a shoulder up, and if he was in so much pain that he couldn't why wasn't he tapping out? It just didn't look right, although I give them credit for the creativity if nothing else.

I believe the  FITE AEW pass is something like $4.99 a month which is pretty reasonable. I wouldn't be without the Network though! 

Edited April 10, 2020 by DE.

[Dreyski]

Or if you want to stay up late on a Friday, it's on ITV4.

[DE.]

There is that, although ITV got a lot of shit early on for cutting stuff out. I have no idea if they are still doing that.

[Dreyski]

Without seeing the original broadcast, I wouldn't know what they take out, but they're okay with blood and some bad language (they bleeped one word during the Omega/Best Friends segment).

I guess Jericho's got a future behind the mic when he finally calls it a day.

[Blue blood]

Thanks guys that is helpful. May have a look at ITV and then make a decision. Yeah the Network is pretty good. Aside from the excellent (imo) NXT and without peers Takeovers, there's NXT UK, the library catalogue and documentaries all of which are good. Not sure who watches some of the other stuff like drive along and the bump (apologies if that's any of you!) nor the belated Raw/Smackdown unless a classic episode. But even so I think there is enough good content on there to make it a good investment. 

[DE.]

I watch current PPVs on the network , but primarily classic Raw/Smackdown/Nitro/Thunder shows, pre-2003 PPVs and the documentaries. That's about it but still a hell of a lot of content there alone.

[Blue blood]

6 minutes ago, DE. said:

I watch current PPVs on the network , but primarily classic Raw/Smackdown/Nitro/Thunder shows, pre-2003 PPVs and the documentaries. That's about it but still a hell of a lot of content there alone.

Whaf are your thoughts in NXT and the Takeovers? The Takeovers for me in particular are stunning. Yeah a lot of good older stuff on there which is great. Some naff stuff as well as WCW went mental at the end.

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

Whaf are your thoughts in NXT and the Takeovers? The Takeovers for me in particular are stunning. Yeah a lot of good older stuff on there which is great. Some naff stuff as well as WCW went mental at the end.

Oh yeah I love NXT and the Takeover events were my favourite things in wrestling before AEW came along. I still enjoy NXT although not as much since it moved to Wednesday, admittedly. It's easily the best thing WWE puts out regardless.

Whilst I agree WCW at the end was a clusterfuck (albeit a somewhat entertaining one in retrospect) people forget that there was some very bad stuff on Nitro during the 'golden years' as well. Jim Duggan, M. Wallstreet, Glacier, Jim Powers, Public Enemy (good in ECW, sucked everywhere else), The Amazing French Canadians, Kevin Sullivan and the Dungeon of Doom... the list goes on but there was a lot of crap on Nitro even during the good times! However it was balanced out by the amazing cruiserweight division, and the nWo storyline before it became stale. 

I can't really watch WCW past mid-1998 as it becomes really difficult for me to pay any attention to - especially considering how long the shows are by that point. The 2 hour Nitros were just about right. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

On 10/04/2020 at 09:51, DE. said:

Yeah, Jericho on commentary was a riot, and Tony was great too. Jericho could have gone all out heel as some wrestlers do and just bury the faces and praise the heels, but he was very clever in giving plenty of compliments to the faces whilst still rooting for the heels. He never felt obnoxious or annoying, which just shows how intelligent he is and how much he gets the business. I can't remember what documentary it was but I can remember a wrestler saying that if all you do is bury your opponent in promos and make them out to be pathetic then it doesn't do you any favours. if you beat the guy then it doesn't mean as much because you've spent the entire time beforehand saying he sucks anyway, and if you lose then you look even worse. If you give your opponent his dues then either way you come out of the match with something. 

Overall I thought the episode was good, AEW are still doing really well without the live crowds. Putting wrestlers around ringside definitely helps with that. Tony Schiavone's "ohhh, hentaiii" commentary line will go down as a meme for sure. 

I thought Matt Hardy's promo was another miss though. I'm really not into what he's been doing so far. 

Also Shawn Spears getting pinned with the Figure 4 looked really weird. I can't remember that ever happening in the time I've been watching. 

Ya, Matty Hardy is weird now. He's trying to be more coherent with what he is suing,but then he comes across as not fully being in the broken character. I think the ship has sailed on that gimmick. Although he did challenge Jericho to a match at the Hardy compound. Could be interesting,or it could look like two out of shape,middle aged men going at it. 

Ya, good summation of Jerichos commentary. He gets it for sure. I enjoyed the Britt Baker match. I actually think she is a good heel. 

[Miller11]

Busy couple of days for WWE. Political donations to the tune of $18.5 million, WWE being declared essential business in Florida, producers furloughed and dozens of wrestlers released... all coming hot on the heels of the Snuka episode of dark side of the ring, which paints Vince in a terrible light.

[DE.]

WWE have announced a big talent cut as a result of COVID19 - from Reddit:

Biggest surprise there are The Good Brothers (only recently re-signed), Mike Chioda (employed at WWE since 1989), Rowan, Rusev and Logan. The rest generally aren't being used and I had forgotten the likes of Epico and Primo were even around. WWE sure did fuck up Rusev though - over like crazy with the Rusev Day thing but they just buried him.

I didn't think this week's AEW was as good as previous efforts. Jericho was a bit too cute on commentary, the matches were lacklustre, the main even went on way too long - especially considering Jake Hager isn't that good, and overall the show felt like AEW Dark with a Dynamite main event slapped on to the end. 

 

[Blue blood]

5 hours ago, Miller11 said:

Busy couple of days for WWE. Political donations to the tune of $18.5 million, WWE being declared essential business in Florida, producers furloughed and dozens of wrestlers released... all coming hot on the heels of the Snuka episode of dark side of the ring, which paints Vince in a terrible light.

Yes, I really enjoy wrestling but this sits very uncomfortably. Its not even a backhander - it's a blatant, in your face bribe to keep open. 

Also sets a dangerous precedent, especially in the pandemic. Can businesses pay a fine / make a donation to stay open. 

[Dreyski]

RIP Howard Finkel.

The absolute Gold standard for ring announcers.

[DE.]

The Fink had a great voice, always takes me back to the Attitude Era. 

A lot of people like him but for some reason Justin Roberts' voice kind of annoys me. I know he takes his job very seriously and his book was really interesting, but personally not a fan. I actually prefer Dasha who is doing ring introductions for AEW at the moment. 

[Mike E]

'And the NEWWWWWWWWW.....' will never be the same again.

[Blue blood]

Not a big fan of the money in the bank matches being throughout the whole building. I get the no crowd and needing different ways of doing things. But if Wrestlemania showed one thing, it was that a well done ladder match translates very well even without a crowd there. The triple threat ladder match was arguably the best match of WM (Ripley Flair may have edged it) so it seems foolish to devalue what is normal and working. 

The problem with these action movie type matches and filming is that 1) it isn't wrestling and 2) it isn't anywhere near as good as movies. Also given how Eege-Orton and the Gargano-Champa matches dragged on and went on for way too long I fear that these will also be overly long and boring. 

If it were me and they had to keep going (which ethically, medically and quality wise I find questionable) then I'd do a fair number of gimmick matches to differentiate, shorter more action packed matches, really utilise the commentators and have shorter shows with filler of classic matches and moments from the Network (which would be a good plug for it). However I'm not in charge of WWE and they seem to have done ok without my guidance so far.