[Archived] Debate of the week - Protest for change or always back the club

[Glenn]

Time to try debate of the week again. Each week we'll take a meaty and contentious subject and let seasoned debaters thrash it out. This is no place for one line answers or poor English skills, it's about quality debate, if you can't manage at least a couple of paragraphs of more or less grammatically correct English IN EVERY POST then you're out. Resort to personal insults, going off topic or sniping, then you're out. Remember, this is debate, not argument.

Many people are unhappy with the current club owners/management. Some are trying to bring change through protest (not renewing season tickets, boycotting the club shop etc) other are saying they will continue to do everything to back the team despite the owners. So, what is the right action, take a stand and risk damaging the team, or given the team your full support, even if it does endorse a regime you may not approve of.

If you wish to make a comment on the debate, rather than actually debate, please use this thread ==> http://www.brfcs.co....s-and-feedback/

Update 1: This isn't an edict for the entire site. It's a little game/experiment in a single thread.

Update 2: So many of you are struggling with "a couple of paragraphs" I see.

[RibbleValleyRover]

I think the mentality for most Rovers fans is to back the club no matter what. If you look at most clubs in this league I would say the vast majority would have held some form of protest if their club had endured some of the strife that we went through last season.

Why is is that Rovers fans are happy to just sit back and not speak up? For a club of our size and a squad/manager with limited quality I think the majority of fans feel they need to keep the club as stable as possible and protesting might jeopardize that stability.

Whilst this may be the current position there will be a tipping point or an approach to a 'Rubicon moment' where fans who backed the club to the hilt will decide enough is enough and they will feel the need to protest. Are we at that point yet? I don't think we are. Some I have spoken to have had enough already and just as many are still willing to give the owners, manager and the club as a whole more time.

Do I think we should protest? I think we are rapidly approaching that point. If the transfer window ends as badly as it's currently looking and Rovers are near the bottom after 10 games then is the time to really vent anger towards the owners and the manager. But having said that even then it wouldn't surprise me if fans are happy to do nothing about it. It's an admirable and loyal quality most of the time but it could lead to our undoing.

[PAFELL]

I think the mentality for most Rovers fans is to back the club no matter what. If you look at most clubs in this league I would say the vast majority would have held some form of protest if their club had endured some of the strife that we went through last season.

Why is is that Rovers fans are happy to just sit back and not speak up? For a club of our size and a squad/manager with limited quality I think the majority of fans feel they need to keep the club as stable as possible and protesting might jeopardize that stability.

Whilst this may be the current position there will be a tipping point or an approach to a 'Rubicon moment' where fans who backed the club to the hilt will decide enough is enough and they will feel the need to protest. Are we at that point yet? I don't think we are. Some I have spoken to have had enough already and just as many are still willing to give the owners, manager and the club as a whole more time.

Do I think we should protest? I think we are rapidly approaching that point. If the transfer window ends as badly as it's currently looking and Rovers are near the bottom after 10 games then is the time to really vent anger towards the owners and the manager. But having said that even then it wouldn't surprise me if fans are happy to do nothing about it. It's an admirable and loyal quality most of the time but it could lead to our undoing.

First and foremost everybody on this site wants the team to do well. Whoever the owners are, we want success for the team. Most of us agree that Rovers will have a weakened team next season than last season. Last seasons team just avoided relegation by the skin of its teeth.

I suggest that more than ever this weakened team needs the support of it supporters. Therefore if folk are able, they should attend the matches and get behind the team. If I lived in the area, I would buy a season ticket, for the reasons already outlined.

Yes an encouragement / push by the fans, to venkys to sell the club is needed. Refusing to buy season tickets is not the way. Especially if we are "rovers till we die".

Protesting can be done via this site, but how? Recently I did a very small thing. I changed my signiture on here to, "we love Rovers, we hate venkys". In the hope venkys read this site. (I hope others do the same)

They need to know from us that they do have the support of the fans - who they have in the past, said love them.

Ok do not buy a shirt with venkys written on it. Make voices known via the media, local and national.

But we must support the team. If venkys sell, we may have this team for at least another transfer window. Rovers supporters have to do all they can to try to help the team stay as high up the table as they can. Then when new owners come in and a decent transfer window, then we can push on. But now it is all hands to the pump to keep the boat floating, until the repairs can be done.

[Cheeky Sidders]

I think there is a fundamental difference between backing the club and backing the owners. I will always back the club in that I will continue going (renewed my season ticket for the 19th consecutive year and 23rd time in total), I'll keep buying the merchandise even though it's tacky, I'll go to away games when I can, I'll buy the soggy pies, I'll cheer them on through thick and thin, I'll never boo (not even Andrews) and I'll still turn up for those inevitable defeats to Villa in the cup. But I will not back the W@nky's people ever as I don't trust them or believe a word that comes from their forked tongues. They will not be the end of our club but they will tip us back into the abyss and it might be many years before we climb out of it again. I love the club and all it stands for and represents about my hometown, but I loathe W@nky's. For that reason I will protest.

[cletus]

Whether to protest or not??

I think there`s no right or wrong on this. It`s a very personal decision each Rovers fan has to make to satisfy their own conscience. I have banged on for years in various threads about people on here who think they have the right to tell others how or what to spend their money on. I have always held the opinion & will always back anybody who wishes to spend their own hard earned money on whatever they see fit. It is nobody elses business & they should keep their noses out.

Board members have been called a 'disgrace' 'fickle' & have had the 'I am a better supporter than you' claim thrown at them....merely for expressing an opinion that differs from the official Rovers mantra.

As for the 'protest or not' dilema?

I have chosen to withdraw my financial support (season ticket & merchandise) because i personally think Venkys have made a total pigs ear of everything to do with Blackburn Rovers since they bought the club. I am not saying "That`s it! I`m done with them!" Not at all. All i am saying is i want to see a vast improvement in how they run the club, deal with the PR, deal with the fans & most of all actually DELIVER something solid that they`ve promised to do. So far they have done nothing to impress me.

When Venkys actually start delivering on their promises, then i will show my faith in them by putting a few of my hard earned pounds their way.

I`ve been called "not a fan" by some on here. I prefer to call it "not a collaborator"

The only contact i have with Blackburn Rovers & Venkys is through my attendance at games & my season ticket money. I have decided to withdraw it until Venkys buck up their ideas.

[Drunx2002]

Personally, I've bought a season ticket for the first time in years. This is mainly because I've moved back to the North West and am excited about seeing more than a handful of games this season, win lose or draw. It will be nice to be an active part of the club again after 7 years in the East Anglian wilderness!

As for the majority, I harbour concerns about the running of the club, in particular the exodus of established employees like Williams and Finn. Regarding the mortgage, financing and transfer strategy I'm confused about the whole thing but for me the proof will be who we have signed by the end of August. Until then I'm not passing judgement.

Regarding protesting about the owners, I don't see how a satisfactory outcome for the fans and club would come out of this. Have fan protests ever managed to achieve this? Newcastle tried over a sustained period but didn't get anywhere and the reason for this is simple. Sale of a club requires another interested buyer with sufficient financial clout to buy a club, and one who will pass the Premier League's tests. Organisations or individuals who would meet those criteria are few and far between, and that number reduces further when you are an "unfashionable non-London club" whose supporters are protesting en masse.

As I mentioned in the transfer thread, the most likely outcome of a protest would be that Venkys decide to try and sell the club, can't, and make the decision not to invest in the club at all. This may or may not be happening already, but I think we will know by the end of August.

I'll continue to support the club and for me this means the whole club warts and all. If the worst happens and the club folds, or with Wimbledon and Utd a separate club is born from the flames of a takeover then I'll happily support AFC Blackburn Rovers Est. 2014 instead. After all, I'd be happy to support a club made by supporters of our great club, where the only thing to worry about is the performance on the pitch and not the nonsense that modern day football has brought to the game.

Some may see this as "burying my head in the sand" or "taking a back seat". I see it as me being commited to Blackburn Rovers (in whatever form it takes) until my deathbed, and not involving myself in activities which can't result in a positive outcome for our club.

[pksrover]

I think the mentality for most Rovers fans is to back the club no matter what. If you look at most clubs in this league I would say the vast majority would have held some form of protest if their club had endured some of the strife that we went through last season.

Why is is that Rovers fans are happy to just sit back and not speak up? For a club of our size and a squad/manager with limited quality I think the majority of fans feel they need to keep the club as stable as possible and protesting might jeopardize that stability.

Whilst this may be the current position there will be a tipping point or an approach to a 'Rubicon moment' where fans who backed the club to the hilt will decide enough is enough and they will feel the need to protest. Are we at that point yet? I don't think we are. Some I have spoken to have had enough already and just as many are still willing to give the owners, manager and the club as a whole more time.

Do I think we should protest? I think we are rapidly approaching that point. If the transfer window ends as badly as it's currently looking and Rovers are near the bottom after 10 games then is the time to really vent anger towards the owners and the manager. But having said that even then it wouldn't surprise me if fans are happy to do nothing about it. It's an admirable and loyal quality most of the time but it could lead to our undoing.

RVR - I've corrected your signature...

"It's a very competitive budget. Miyles bigger than Rovers have had in the past."

Steve Kean- 21st May 2011

0

[Plastic Head]

On the pitch I say....half time v Wolves.

[Ozz]

There is no right or wrong action, as it is all about opinions. There is no definitive answer. There are as Glenn says many ways of showing your distress at the way the club is being run, such as not buying a season ticket, booing etc. But in my view the most appropriate action would be, in a massively ironic way, to emulate the 1920s Indian movement of non-cooperation.

This can involve active non aggressive action where any decison involving a positive move towards the owners is denied, and with our relatively small fan base these actions can soon be seen and felt.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

What about a letter to Jack Straw - surely he must be aware of what is going on ?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

The answer for me is simple.

We must continue to support the team and we must continue to attend Ewood,turning your back will only further hurt OUR club...the town of Blackburn's club.

It may be time to start some form of protest POST match to show our disgust at how OUR club is being mis-managed.I think the time has come for less talk and more action,enough is enough.

LOVE ROVERS,HATE VENKY'S

[MarkBRFC]

The answer for me is simple.

We must continue to support the team and we must continue to attend Ewood,turning your back will only further hurt OUR club...the town of Blackburn's club.

It may be time to start some form of protest POST match to show our disgust at how OUR club is being mis-managed.I think the time has come for less talk and more action,enough is enough.

LOVE ROVERS,HATE VENKY'S

Completely agree.

It's not going to happen though is it? I just can't see any sort of mass protest at Ewood, folk just won't go.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Completely agree.

I just can't see any sort of mass protest at Ewood, folk just won't go.

Post match Mark..after a game inside Ewood.

[studleywarrior]

Surely the time of protest has past now, this should have happened when the board and the trust were in the process of selling the club. You only have to look at the Green and Gold protest at Man Utd, that has hardly made the Glazers up sticks and run off in to the sunset. The Venkys do not fulfil anyone with confidence and are obviously not going to reach their expectations, as they do not have the where with all to provide the necessary funds, however we are stuck with them. The club has been on the market for years without a sniff of interest apart from a business man with a shady past. As stated earlier "unfashionable non-London club" therefore apart from finding another Jack Walker, which is highly unlikely, there will only be potential for buyers with a vested interest, whether it be to promote a name further in the UK or to profit in other countries. It is all good and well reminiscing about John Williams and Tom Finn however they are not coming back. Along with The Trust and the rest of the board it was decided to sell our beloved club to owners affiliated with Jerome Anderson which has now created the situation we are in. That was the time to protest, there was no consultation with fans or supporters trusts, it was just to get rid as quick as possible. We were assured that the new owners would carry on running the club to the same standards as the board, however this has not proven to be the case.

Ewood park is our fortress, the only place where we can get together and show support for our team and our club in unison. Protesting at the ground either pre or post match is fruitless and leaves us wide open to mockery from other fans and the media. Sites such as this and the media in general are the perfect arenas to voice your protests against Venkys, leave Ewood Park to football. Boycotting season tickets, I believe to be a fruitless enterprise, it is only going to leave us with a half empty stadium again and leaving us open to ridiule from other fans and the media.

If fans feel as strongly as they say they do then the time has come to be heard, join the supporters trusts, boost the ranks and come together in one group and contact Venkys head on with your grieveances. Demand answers regarding transfers, appointments to the board and future strategies etc. If we keep this up long enough they will concede and hopefully attempt to work in conjunction with fans, as it is quite obvious they have no idea at the present time. Don't just had behind avatars, slagging each other off and ultimately not achieving anything. The opportunity is there, take it.

[Veevs]

I have gained a huge dislike for Venkys/SEM/Kentaro to me Venkys have been duped into taking on the club based on a proposal from Kentaro and Anderson using a model that has already seen them get rich quick at the expense of Rovers and Venkys.

But as fans we have to look at the long term survival of the club.

What actions can we take as fans?

1) Boycotting season tickets.... I do believe not renewing season tickets is a very bad way for us to deal with this, should they wish to sell potential investors will not want to invest in a club with a small fan base.

2) Match protests, fan groups and petitions.... Venkys are not a UK based company, they are hardly ever here, they are from a completely different culture and importantly they are a business and not fans (of football or rovers) so IMO I doubt any of these will help in the long term.

But before we take action we need to speak with one voice, so what would be our goal from any action?

• Venkys out? This would be down to them finding a buyer and them being willing to take a multi million pound loss.
  
• Venkys to invest? I doubt this would have any effect, but always worth a try.
  
• Venkys to dump Kentaro? Possibly the best option for any action, but then who will replace Kentaro and co?
  

But what would be the end result of such actions?

• Venkys do nothing: As for the reasons above imo this is the most likely thing to occur.
  
• Venkys to sell: This is entirely down to actually having someone to sell to, and personally especially given the new rules and regulations(no loss of 45m over 3 seasons stops sugar daddies and completely sets a bias towards city based clubs with large incomes and fan bases) we are not exactly an attractive proposition.
  
• Venkys to invest: This is a very harsh option for them and a large gamble on their part as such we may see just enough investment to survive but even that is questionable. At the end of the day they are a business, investing in football is costly to the extreme.
  
• Venkys decide to capitalise on assets: The scary path but if we look at how things are setup this is an option to them, Rovers as a club has very little debt in comparison to most, low income, high wage bill and high asset values so we actually make for a great asset stripping target if Venkys should look at us as a business (which I have a feeling they do). By selling real estate and player based assets they would in theory make a rather decent amount of money (by not only gaining cash from assets but by reducing the wage/turnover ratio to championship levels and gaining more of a margin from TV and Parachute funds) and be able to downgrade the business in the hope of profiting from future accedemy player sales and life in the championship.
  
• Venkys to take out new loans: This brings in the scary possibilty of us doing a Portsmouth or Leeds.
  
• Venkys to change model and approach: A good potential option but way to late for any effect this season, they would also need to find appropriate advisors with football knowledge without burning to many bridges on the way.
  

So what is the best course of action?

Well this is a debate and to be frank I do not know what the best course of action is, I feel we should do something but this is my heart talking, my head on the other hand is telling me to shut the hell up and not provoke them into realising the cold hard facts of the situation they are in. Still I would back any fans actions in putting forward proposals, ideas or constructive approaches towards Venkys.

Please note I am strongly of the opinion that if we do anything we need to sit down think about it and come up with a plan together not everyone running off asking for different things which means we will need a clear message and a clear goal.

[Finch]

Should there be a poll attached to this thread? Could get an idea of number in which camp

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I'm still holding back slightly until the end of the transfer window but its becoming increasingly apparent that we must protest. Of course as has been said the problem is getting rid of Venkys without damaging the team.

The boycotting matches option sounds the most potent on the surface as it would hit Venkys where they really care, their wallets. However a club like Rovers has a turnover of about £45m per season and I'd say less than 15% of that is ticket income from our fans. So even if there was excellently organised and committed boycotting of matches it wouldn't be guaranteed to get rid of them. On top of that it doesn't sit well with many people (myself included) to ever stop supporting Rovers.

The simple option really is continue turning up, roaring on the players (and yes, even the manager) and try keep protests against Venkys separate by using banners in the stands, protesting after the match, giving them an extremely hostile reception next time they turn up at a game. This probably has even less chance of getting rid of them than not turning up but I also disagree with those who say it'll make no difference. Any big company is sensitive to bad publicity and they'll start getting tons of that if the fans can finally unite against them.

[colin]

Protesting against the owners of a football club? What on earth is that going to acheive?

The square root of nothing.

A mentioned above some Manchester United fans have been protesting at the Glazier's ownership for years. The Glaziers just laugh at them. The Scum are

are money making machine for them. They don't give a flying one what some fans think as long as The Theatre Of Merchandising fills up every week and far eastern "supporters" visit the place and buy replica shirts at the shop.

Liverpool supporters protested against the ownership of Gillet & Hicks, to no effect. They were eventually removed by an American court ruling. Not by any fans' protest

Crawley Town fans protested against the ownership of the Majeed brothers to no effect.

George Reynolds royally screwed Darlington Town FC despite fans' protests.

Villa fans railed against Alex McLeish's appointment as manager. Randy Learner, apparantly one of the more sympathetic owners, ignored them.

Chester City FC was *ahem* "messed about" by its owner and was wound up by the High Court.

I'm not trying to be some kind of Cassandra here, but times have changed. Owners such as Steve Gibson at Middlesbrough and Peter Coates at Stoke are

becoming rare and something to enjoy by the clubs' fans.

There's a list of who owns which clubs

here

(just note Lakshmi Mittal at QPR and what he's worth!)

Venkys won't give a flying one what we do or think.

[Wendal]

Whether Venkys give a flying one or not, by protesting we ensure our collective voice is heard, we generate greater awareness/scrutiny regarding the mishandling of our club and create a greater sense of accountability for our owners.

Venkys are clearly sensitive to anything which negatively affects their brand, by protesting we are sure to create awareness/publicity that will negatively impact on their core brand/expansion plans.

I think only an impact on their brand that will force them to re evaluate their approach toward running our club.

At the moment Venkys are allowed to run wild on our club with little scrutiny (beyond this messageboard).

[waggy]

from the 1st time i was shoved through the nutall street stands gate in front of my dad in the late 60,s,i became engrossed in the institute that is BLACKBURN ROVERS FOOTBALL CLUB.most of my early visit,s to ewood were night games,my dad was a publican and saturday games were out the question.the steam and smoke rising into the winters air from the sparse crowds will live in my memories for years to come.

from them early days to the present i have seen some great times,some bad times,some bad managers,some great players,and the game has moved on to another world.my proudest moment at ewood happened in the last promotion season to the premier when my son walked out holding matt jansens hand as a mascot,who then went on to score twice versus pne.

i will always love BRFC,but the hiring off big fat sam and the takeover by wenkys have tested that love.i have not been to a 1st team game at ewood since liverpool december 2008,and i will not step foot in ewood again until this fiasco is sorted.who do i blame,THE WALKERS TRUST

[hawkiiz]

First of all we have to get proof of what is actually going on. I for one can not blindly trust what is said about my club by a random poster on a message board (because yes, that is what the guys who are "in the know" is to me).

I am deeply worried about Rovers, and I am scared that this supposedly leaked info is true. IF it is, then if those posters are indeed fans, they have to prove to fans what is actually going on, so that we have anything to protest about. I know a lot of people who do not go on here, and merely read a few online newspapers and the official site. What do they have to protest about? It all looks pretty good. As long as only people on a MB is angry, there will be no protest.

If the info is true, then of course we should protest. Not by cancelling the season ticket, but by not wearing the shirt at matches, chant about Venkys, meet up when the player/officials arrive and make it clear to them how we feel about Venkys, get info out to the papers.

Maybe nothing will come from it, but who cares? If the info is indeed correct, then it looks like the club is doomed anyway. If anything it can make FA change the rules, if half of the PL clubs fans are unhappy about their owners. I don't want any fan to have to go through this.

But first and foremost, the info must be confirmed!!!

[Mattyblue]

from the 1st time i was shoved through the nutall street stands gate in front of my dad in the late 60,s,i became engrossed in the institute that is BLACKBURN ROVERS FOOTBALL CLUB.most of my early visit,s to ewood were night games,my dad was a publican and saturday games were out the question.the steam and smoke rising into the winters air from the sparse crowds will live in my memories for years to come.

from them early days to the present i have seen some great times,some bad times,some bad managers,some great players,and the game has moved on to another world.my proudest moment at ewood happened in the last promotion season to the premier when my son walked out holding matt jansens hand as a mascot,who then went on to score twice versus pne.

i will always love BRFC,but the hiring off big fat sam and the takeover by wenkys have tested that love.i have not been to a 1st team game at ewood since liverpool december 2008,and i will not step foot in ewood again until this fiasco is sorted.who do i blame,THE WALKERS TRUST

Appointing a manager who did a good job in the same sentence as Venky's= your argument is a load of @#/?.

[braddock]

Appointing a manager who did a good job in the same sentence as Venky's= your argument is a load of @#/?.

I think he did a good job in the circumstances.

My opinion is that you should protest for change if something awful is happening at the club you support. That time isn't upon us at Rovers in my eyes, given how much could be conjecture. Right now even the most sound of sources can't seem to keep track of the truth, or what will happen in the future as things stand, it would be foolish to protest at this stage and could have the potential to disrupt the squad. A poor run in form last season coincided with anti Venky's songs and Andrews booing. Especially when dealing with younger players, confidence can be key.

I'm not getting into a debate, that's just my opinion. Things could all be going wrong, but I'm waiting.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Appointing a manager who did a good job in the same sentence as Venky's= your argument is a load of @#/?.

Hear hear, I did a double take when I read that sentence as well but figured pointing out its lunacy wouldn't qualify as debating.

[Iceman]

Love Rovers Hate Venkys