[Archived] London riots

[John]

Mark Stone just down from my flat! Big gathering hovering near-by...could do with seeing some police!

[waggy]

mass immagration leads to civil unrest,britian is about to pay the price

[Steve Moss]

They are just a bunch of young lost souls, with a very bleak future, in a city were costs are moving way beyond their means.

'Bring in the army' FFS ! then we really will have lost it as a nation.

If you don't want to lose the nation, if you want your rioters to know the law will be enforced and that they are not special, precious little angels exempt from all responsibility, your Prime Minister would declare martial law and bring in the Army.

That will take balls. Let's see if Mr. Cameron's has a pair.

How about giving them the opportunity to do some WORK, when they hit sixteen or leave fifth form or year eleven as its now called.

That would require a pro business environment, low taxes and light regulation. Do you have that it England or was it ripped away to pay for a welfare state?

I think it's too easy for us to condemn all of this from the outside looking in without really understanding the situation. Saying that these people are "animals" and that police should go in hard on them won't resolve anything. It probably works with those who respect authority but it won't work in this case.

None of us would resort to violence but then none of us can claim to know what these kids' lives are like or how they've been brought up. Have the majority of these kids started off in a good household? Or have they started off with absolutely nothing and no hope? If society puts them at the bottom rung of the ladder from the off then I'm not surprised that this kind of thing happens. Calling hopeless people "scrotes" is ignorant. You have to try and get inside the reason as to why they are the way they are.

The "Big Society" and previous governments have obviously not done enough to end child poverty. If the parents cannot help them then, in my opinion, government and society have to intervene. The importance of bringing kids out of immediate poverty cannot be understated and is still a big problem here. Only that sort of help will reduce the chances of these kind of things from happening again.

This is not about poverty. This is about a complete lack of respect for authority, property and the lives of others. This is what a welfare state produces. Soulless animals who would rather destroy than build, who have lived life without consequence because someone always comes along and picks up the pieces for them.

JAL they are restricted in what they can do. Years ago if you threw anything at a policeman there would be a good chance he would come after you and you would get a whack or two, these days they with human rights legislation if they did that they would end up being the ones who get prosecuted.

We have made our police toothless.

The West as a whole has rendered itself powerless. Cultural suicide in the name of social responsibility.

Absolutely. The police, like the NHS, are having to deal with major cuts. Responsibility for that has to come from the top. There is always a risk to cuts and we're seeing that now.

So far, most posters on this thread seem to think this can be fixed with enough bullets and batons. What about the long term fix? Or is it "Rubbish" to even contemplate there being one?

The short term fix is batons, water cannon, tear gas, rubber bullets and, if necessary real bullets.

The mid-term fix is mandatory military service.

The long term fix is more of the same, coupled with education reforms and pro business, pro property rights, pro self-defense reform to the legal system.

mass immagration leads to civil unrest,britian is about to pay the price

It would be easy to dismiss this as prejudice, but there is some truth in it. Unrestrained immigration, immigration without first assimilating the immediately prior wave of migrants or the ability to rapidly assimilate, immigration which is allowed not based on the good of England but to ease the supposed "blight" of the migrant, is doubtless responsible for a portion of the problem.

[John]

Still can't believe what went on last night, shocking scenes with the police one step behind the whole time. One of the main streets in Clapham Junction is currently in pieces. What surprised me was the age of some of these idiots, so young without a care in the world. You couldn't take the smile off some of their faces.

[RovertheHill]

Not unprecedented - the 1980s inner city riots were far worse and compared to those these are only minor incidents.

Common denominator to both of course is a right-wing government, public service cuts, disaffected youth and rising unemployment.

What you are witnessing is Tory Britain.....and everyone is very pleased.

Frankly a stupid post. One year of a Tory government seemingly creates a disaffected youth? What about 13 years of a Labour government in which the gap between the richest and poorest widened? Take a look at the videos of those looting. They are all wearing very expensive sports gear. These are not the genuine poor - these are opportunist thugs and thieves, ruining the livelihood of others and putting the lives of others in danger, and political point scoring does you absolutely no credit whatsoever.

[Mike Graham]

Still can't believe what went on last night, shocking scenes with the police one step behind the whole time. One of the main streets in Clapham Junction is currently in pieces. What surprised me was the age of some of these idiots, so young without a care in the world. You couldn't take the smile off some of their faces.

Dreadful, the violence and looting seems to turn some of them on and they glory in it.

We need short-term reactions, and longer term fixes.

Anyhow we have Cameron, Boris, Milliband and harriet back so we can all sleep safe tonight knowing the politicians are back in charge.

BROKEN BRITAIN, I can't wait to escape (but not anywhere near Waggy).

[PAFELL]

They are just a bunch of young lost souls, with a very bleak future, in a city were costs are moving way beyond their means.

'Bring in the army' FFS ! then we really will have lost it as a nation.

People have a right to protest. But not to use all means to protest. What started off as a grievance about the shooting dead of a man by the Police has esculated. It is being used as an excuse to protest about other things.

This is just mindless thuggery now. People may not like the financial cuts / lack of jobs / loss of hope for the future etc. But that does not give them a reason to take the same off other people. Burning and wrecking the business and work places of other people is wrong. They may have to use the army if things get any worse. Due to the fact there are not enough Police.

Football and other sporting events are being effected by these riots. WHU & Charlton matches maybe - if not already - called off. Premier league matches could also be effected.

[PAFELL]

Frankly a stupid post. One year of a Tory government seemingly creates a disaffected youth? What about 13 years of a Labour government in which the gap between the richest and poorest widened? Take a look at the videos of those looting. They are all wearing very expensive sports gear. These are not the genuine poor - these are opportunist thugs and thieves, ruining the livelihood of others and putting the lives of others in danger, and political point scoring does you absolutely no credit whatsoever.

Noticed that myself the way some were dressed, expensive sports gear etc. People in this country do not know what real poverty really is. We only have to look over seas to see real poverty, famine and drought and war etc.

Some people think it is a right to have a TV, a car, and other luxury stuff.

[Mike Graham]

The only copper who had the balls to tell the truth last night was the gent from the Met Police Federation when he talked of anarchy and that he had members who were still on duty after 20 hours; he also said that members were coming in off leave.....compare this dedication to the approach of the mindless thugs, most of whom will get away with it and those who are caught will argue false arrest and police thuggery.

The Country is going mad, we must take a zero tolerance approach.

[adopted scouser]

This is what happens when you cut Police numbers, and make every serving officer scared to do his job for fear of prosecution. Saddens and angers me to see the troops in full riot gear forced to just stand there as effluent lobs bricks and firebombs at them. Do gooders everywhere, congratulations

[mr bishi]

Absolute animals involved.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150333636850851&comments

[Mattyblue]

Not unprecedented - the 1980s inner city riots were far worse and compared to those these are only minor incidents.

Common denominator to both of course is a right-wing government, public service cuts, disaffected youth and rising unemployment.

What you are witnessing is Tory Britain.....and everyone is very pleased.

What about the Burnley and Bradford riots of 2001? Or the petrol protests of 2000? Talking out of your arse again jim.

These 'youths' are a symptom of years of liberal polices ensuring there is no repsect for the police, for property, for the rule of law.

Thse kids, don't give a @#/? about 'the cuts', 'The Tories', they just saw a chance to kick off.

Explain how torching a 100 year old family furniture business is to do with 'Tory cuts'? This is a Britain of uneducated feral scum.

Shameful jim.

[adopted scouser]

I think it's too easy for us to condemn all of this from the outside looking in without really understanding the situation. Saying that these people are "animals" and that police should go in hard on them won't resolve anything. It probably works with those who respect authority but it won't work in this case.

None of us would resort to violence but then none of us can claim to know what these kids' lives are like or how they've been brought up. Have the majority of these kids started off in a good household? Or have they started off with absolutely nothing and no hope? If society puts them at the bottom rung of the ladder from the off then I'm not surprised that this kind of thing happens. Calling hopeless people "scrotes" is ignorant. You have to try and get inside the reason as to why they are the way they are.

The "Big Society" and previous governments have obviously not done enough to end child poverty. If the parents cannot help them then, in my opinion, government and society have to intervene. The importance of bringing kids out of immediate poverty cannot be understated and is still a big problem here. Only that sort of help will reduce the chances of these kind of things from happening again.

Absolute nonsense

"It's Tommy this, and Tommy that,

Chuck 'im out the brute"

But it's Saviour of 'is country when the guns begin to shoot

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

Round the feral little @#/?s up and dump them in the middle of East africa or Sierra Leone, then they can find out what it's like to live in poverty and a lawless society.

So angry this morning.

[John]

Thanks for the messages guys - the street just down from me looks like a warzone this morning, can't believe what a mess some of our society are in.

Could have done with a bit more kip....

Be interesting to see what they do to combat this (if it continues), whatever they have in place at the moment is not working.

[DE.]

I don't think the army is the answer. Turn the Armed Forces on your own citizens and you're on a dangerous route.

The police need to, somehow, take control of this - by whatever means are neccessary. If the public don't believe that the police can handle the streets, things like this will continue to happen. Bringing in the army will only reinforce the (currently correct) view that the police are unable to control organised violence.

I feel desperately sorry for the innocent people who got caught up in this. People have a right to protest, but this wasn't protesting... it was mindless, carefree thuggery and criminality. These youngsters are products of this society, no doubt, but their motives were not political. They just saw a chance to raise hell and went for it.

The prisons are already overflowing, and last night proved there are hundreds if not thousands of potential criminals still wandering the streets... very worrying times.

[jim mk2]

I suppose the labour government would have passed out some weed and union cards and everything would have been lovely.

FFS..

It's no coincidence that these riots are taking place under a right wing, dogma driven government that is cutting public services and making poor people suffer for the excesses of the rich. Cameron's government is no different to Thatcher's in the 1980s. People see and read the news and see the unfairness of a society that is punishing the weak and poor at the expense of the wealthy and have little or no prospect of getting worthwhile, decently-paid employment. It's little wonder there has been such a violent reaction. Unlike Thatcher's stormtroopers of the 1980s I actually feel sorry for the police this time because of their reduced numbers forced on them by the public spending cuts. For those who voted Tory - you reap what you sow. This is the reality of Tory Britain - a divided, unfair, unequal society, mass unemployment and civil unrest.

[thenodrog]

Not unprecedented - the 1980s inner city riots were far worse and compared to those these are only minor incidents.

Common denominator to both of course is a right-wing government, public service cuts, disaffected youth and rising unemployment.

What you are witnessing is Tory Britain.....and everyone is very pleased.

Why stop there Jim? Lets review the TV footage from the past couple of nights and go back even further.

Tilbury Docks 1948. HMS Windrush. Labour Govt. Atlee PM.

I have a much more open mind than you and are nowhere near as blinkered to the truth, and the truth is that the Tories are equally culpable. Both parties have led us on a downward path of social reform since WW2.

Remember .....

It was Ted Heath who destroyed the political career of Enoch Powell for honestly representing his Wolverhampton constituents and for predicting future problems and unrest. Unfortunately in destroying Powell Heath set the standard for all subsequent politicians to shirk introducing debate on any racial immigration issues since.

Labour abolished Capital punishment under Wilson, whilst Corporal punishment was outlawed under Thatcher. Neither govt has reversed the suicidal trend of genetically engineering the population by default. For 40 years we have encouraged and 'rewarded' the underclass to breed whilst discouraging the more able/capable/dynamic from doing so. Result third generation unemployed and supported by the state roaming the streets rioting and looting.

Policing has been dumbed down over the years and rendered largely inept. It's been sacrificed by the self interests of the Legal system on the alter of something which can only exist in theory and principle but never in practice namely Civil rights and pushed along all the while by the dreadful claim culture. So too have the Fire and Ambulence services. Never ever underestimate the damage caused by the limp wristed, initiative destroying wallers that infest the H&S Executive.

Immediate way forward? On the one hand .....

1. Any fire left to burn unattended is a threat to life and law abiding citizens. Any brick / petrol bomb / burning car the same. Ambulances / paramedics cannot and must not prevented from treating injured civilians and any attempted assault on the Fire and Ambulance services carrying out their duties must be quelled with whatever force is necessary. All emergency services to be accompanied and guarded in the execution of their duties by fully equipped armed response officers. In extreme cases warnings followed by leg shots if necessary.

2. Police Snatch squads for looters, leading to detention in boot camps. Standing yards away doing nothing but watching crimes being committed just breeds contempt. These people must be taught respect first and fear later toward the police. The prospect of a few months on an uninhabited island in the hebrides with no creature comforts and even worse no drugs and phone would soon alter current mind sets.

3. The Police themselves are not absolved from blame. For too long promotion has come before policing. Weak and corrupt policemen must be weeded out and never mind what colour or religion they are and tried and tested police methods reverted to. Nobody respects authority when it is weak. (Just as an aside all those who travelled to Krakow will surely know why there was no crowd trouble at that match. Those buggers in black were terrifying.)

on the other hand....

Just let it run it's course. Let our towns be burned and looted. Let street violence and looting carry on unopposed and unchecked and let decent people live in fear. The longer if goes on the sooner the nation will rise up and rid itself of the damaging limp wristed Liberal element in society which has created this entire culture along with the political system which has supported that element.

There job done.... Next?

[Mattyblue]

It's no coincidence that these riots are taking place under a right wing, dogma driven government that is cutting public services and making poor people suffer for the excesses of the rich. Cameron's government is no different to Thatcher's in the 1980s. People see and read the news and see the unfairness of a society that is punishing the weak and poor at the expense of the wealthy and have little or no prospect of getting worthwhile, decently-paid employment. It's little wonder there has been such a violent reaction. Unlike Thatcher's stormtroopers of the 1980s I actually feel sorry for the police this time because of their reduced numbers forced on them by the public spending cuts. For those who voted Tory - you reap what you sow. This is the reality of Tory Britain - a divided, unfair, unequal society, mass unemployment and civil unrest.

If Labour had won the election, this wouldn't have happened? Straight answer to a straight question please jim.

[philipl]

The map of the riots in London

It is far far worse than is being reported.

This morning there is a huge citizen's effort organised by Twitter to tidy up.

As I see it this is being organised and the drug gangs' runners are actually the ones doing all this. The kids are all races, boys and girls and almost all under age. They are all connected using private networks and blackberries which again points to the drug gangs using the infrastructure they use to avoid police.

I would deploy the army but not with soldiers on the streets. I would immediately put wheeled armoured vehicles on the streets operating as part of Police phalanxes going in quickly when these groups gather. The problem is the Police letting situations develop before deploying because they need the neccessary numbers.

The big issue now is in the absence of Police protection, we are going to see citizen vigilantilism. There are several reports of Turkish and Kurdish groups going onto the streets to sort out these looting kids. That will turn this into an ethinic conflagration very quickly if the Police do not reclaim the streets.

In the longer term, questions will have to be asked:

- why the Met armed Police are far more trigger happy than the armed Police elsewhere

- how the Police in Tottenham completely screwed up the hndling of the aftermath of Mark Duggan's death. Days passed from the death to all this kicking off.

- can the cuts to Police be reversed

- can the cuts to all community services and voluntary groups be reversed

But the really big one is this:

50% of people have experience of using illegal drugs. That fuels about 3% of society who are living very rich lives on the black economy fueled by the drug economy. They are both better resourced and more numerous than the 1% of society involved in civilian protection.

Drugs laws are a luxury we can no longer afford and should be cut.

[Sandiway Blue]

It's no coincidence that these riots are taking place under a right wing, dogma driven government that is cutting public services and making poor people suffer for the excesses of the rich. Cameron's government is no different to Thatcher's in the 1980s. People see and read the news and see the unfairness of a society that is punishing the weak and poor at the expense of the wealthy and have little or no prospect of getting worthwhile, decently-paid employment. It's little wonder there has been such a violent reaction. Unlike Thatcher's stormtroopers of the 1980s I actually feel sorry for the police this time because of their reduced numbers forced on them by the public spending cuts. For those who voted Tory - you reap what you sow. This is the reality of Tory Britain - a divided, unfair, unequal society, mass unemployment and civil unrest.

You really do talk some ######!

Read what people are saying!These are people from a certain `cultural` background that are just rioting for the sake of.It has nothing at all to do with poverty.I was brought up in the 70`s,along with my sister,by my dad on his own and we were p*ss poor despite the fact my dad worked 2 jobs just to keep a roof over our heads (under a Labour government i might add ).Did my dad complain about how unfair life was? no.Did he go rioting all around Rawtenstall like a demented loony? absolutely not,he had way too much pride and intelligence to do that sort of thing.

Instead he did what any rational human being would do...he got his head down and worked his way out of the situation he was in.

Yes we are having to watch the pennies more closely at the moment but are you telling me these rioters are making cutbacks such as not spending £70 on a pair of gawdy trainers? or have cancelled their full sky tv package? chances are not a hope in hell.

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

It's no coincidence that these riots are taking place under a right wing, dogma driven government that is cutting public services and making poor people suffer for the excesses of the rich. Cameron's government is no different to Thatcher's in the 1980s. People see and read the news and see the unfairness of a society that is punishing the weak and poor at the expense of the wealthy and have little or no prospect of getting worthwhile, decently-paid employment. It's little wonder there has been such a violent reaction. Unlike Thatcher's stormtroopers of the 1980s I actually feel sorry for the police this time because of their reduced numbers forced on them by the public spending cuts. For those who voted Tory - you reap what you sow. This is the reality of Tory Britain - a divided, unfair, unequal society, mass unemployment and civil unrest.

I think you are over-estimating the intelligence of these kids.

The rest of your post is absolute crap. It's the result of a left wing nanny state that has produced a generation of kids with no respect for civilised society. The present government can hardly be blamed for the current state of affairs. They inherited an economic crisis as well.

Not saying that the Torys are the answer and listening to Teresea May this morning - the woman is so far removed from reality its untrue.

[Mattyblue]

Co-ordinating looting via Blackberries while decked out head to toe in designer gear- British 'poverty' in a nutshell

[jim mk2]

If Labour had won the election, this wouldn't have happened? Straight answer to a straight question please jim.

No. This is a disaffected society. The Scots showed their hatred of a Tory govt in Westminster by voting SNP; in England the masses have taken this chance to show their anger by taking to the streets. The French have a long tradition of street protest against unpopular governments so the events of the past few days are unusual here but not unwelcome. David Cameron's vision of a Big Society with middle class do-gooders performing formerly vital functions of the state is looking rather silly now.

[Mattyblue]

No. This is a disaffected society. The Scots showed their hatred of a Tory govt in Westminster by voting SNP; in England the masses have taken this chance to show their anger by taking to the streets. The French have a long tradition of street protest against unpopular governments so the events of the past few days are unusual here but not unwelcome. David Cameron's vision of a Big Society with middle class do-gooders performing formerly vital functions of the state is looking rather silly now.

Explain 2001 in Burnley/Braford please then james.

Winter of discontent please.

You are obviously trolling, but I'd like to see your explanations regardless.