[Archived] London riots

[philipl]

Egyptians compare their peaceful uprising with what is happening in London.

"To be honest I do not understand why protesters would set shops and houses on fire … I am sorry but you do not loot to object the murder of a young man; you are using his murder," - an Egyptian blogger responding to the disgraceful scenes in London

[Mattyblue]

Can you not see the striking differnces in the two scenarios there phil?!

[jim mk2]

This Daily Telegraph (yes that Tory rag) pretty well hits the nail on the head.

Excellent article. Very surprised the Tory bible ran it although the outraged comments below it are more typical of that newspaper's profile. The message for Cameron's silly Big Society is particularly pertinent: What price for the Big Society as Tottenham, the most solid of communities, lies in ruins? The notion that small-state Britain can be run along the lines of Ambridge parish council by good-hearted, if under-funded, volunteers has never seemed more doubtful.

Like many inner city communities, Tottenham has been hit hard by the recession and the Tory-led austerity measures that have followed. Haringey council has cut its youth services budget by three-quarters, exacerbating the underlying hopelessness afflicting many urban youths. The underclass created by the Thatcher government has been hidden for the past 15 years as the economy has thrived ; the recession and the cuts have brought the problem to the surface again. As ever, the solution is through education. Government targets which focus on efforts to help middle achievers should be scrapped and replaced by a system that focuses on those at the bottom - the ones most likely to turn to crime.

[USRoverME]

I'm an American, so I'm even more distanced from any societies you guys are dicussing than anyone, for certain... but I'm curious on what's happening, so I'm reading. I do have a random thought, though, and El Tombro said somethign I reacted to whiel follwing along

I'm used to being in a minority on here when it comes to things like this but I have no shame in believing that there must be a reason why they are the way they are and that there is a potential fix that only society and government can provide to these communities. When you deal with hopeless people, they have to be spoon fed hope and opportunity. More education in these areas would help prevent this kind of thing...

I think we all define society and government differently though, and assign responsbilities differently. Even if the Gov't provides education, do people stay in the schools? If the Gov't provides work training, job opportunities, do kids TAKE those chances, or is another life their chosen or preferred path?

At some point in 'society' the family and the self factor in, the old "you cna lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink" line. Theres a limit to what government can do, at some point, the personal/family level has to take a setp to meet in the middle.

I have no idea where England has tried to strike that balance, and if its the right one, and god only knows the USA isn't exactly a sterling example of getting this spot on, but there's the dilemna... and frankly, no "politically extreme" viewpoint is going to get a balance right.

[Finch]

Posting from London - we almost have an unofficial curfew down here at present, but I wanted to ask - has the trouble been repeated in Blackburn or any other Lancashire town yet? Are the police on alert in case things kick off?

[Mattyblue]

Excellent article. Very surprised the Tory bible ran it although the outraged comments below it are more typical of that newspaper's profile. The message for Cameron's silly Big Society is particularly pertinent: What price for the Big Society as Tottenham, the most solid of communities, lies in ruins? The notion that small-state Britain can be run along the lines of Ambridge parish council by good-hearted, if under-funded, volunteers has never seemed more doubtful.

Like many inner city communities, Tottenham has been hit hard by the recession and the Tory-led austerity measures that have followed. Haringey council has cut its youth services budget by three-quarters, exacerbating the underlying hopelessness afflicting many urban youths. The underclass created by the Thatcher government has been hidden for the past 15 years as the economy has thrived ; the recession and the cuts have brought the problem to the surface again. As ever, the solution is through education. Government targets which focus on efforts to help middle achievers should be scrapped and replaced by a system that focuses on those at the bottom - the ones most likely to turn to crime.

You're a broken record. If Labour was still in power you'd be blaming it on Thatcher.

You still havent explained the Bradford/Burnley/Oldham riots or the Winter of discontent.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Posting from London - we almost have an unofficial curfew down here at present, but I wanted to ask - has the trouble been repeated in Blackburn or any other Lancashire town yet? Are the police on alert in case things kick off?

No trouble in Lancs. There has been trouble in the 'north west' in Liverpool and Manchester, but not on the scale that we saw in London.

[philipl]

The Salford Precinct rumours are thankfully untrue according to police and journalists. GMP are in strength in some of the adjacent estates from pics I have just seen.

London preternaturally calm. Very little traffic and shops all shut and boarded up.

[Finch]

No trouble in Lancs. There has been trouble in the 'north west' in Liverpool and Manchester, but not on the scale that we saw in London.

Had heard about Liverpool. Not surprised that Manchester is affected too - big cities attract this sort of activity.

Thanks for the update RVR

[AspRover]

The damage locally seems fairly targeted. Its strange, in the small bunch of shops down the road the pub is trashed (though still open for business), the money exchange/small loans shop was attacked (very unsuccessfully by the look of it), and bar a few cars and bus stops that was about it. Opposite these is a very large sainsburys which seems to have been left largely alone (though they've closed up all but one entrance and posted security guards on that).

It sounded a lot worse last night, I have to admit. The worry amongst people I spoke to is that last night was almost a dress rehearsal for the Lewisham area, testing out the polices strength. What can I say? maybe we have slightly more intelligent thugs here. Tonight will tell I suppose.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

The damage locally seems fairly targeted. Its strange, in the small bunch of shops down the road the pub is trashed (though still open for business), the money exchange/small loans shop was attacked (very unsuccessfully by the look of it), and bar a few cars and bus stops that was about it. Opposite these is a very large sainsburys which seems to have been left largely alone (though they've closed up all but one entrance and posted security guards on that).

It sounded a lot worse last night, I have to admit. The worry amongst people I spoke to is that last night was almost a dress rehearsal for the Lewisham area, testing out the polices strength. What can I say? maybe we have slightly more intelligent thugs here. Tonight will tell I suppose.

They might find it a bit tougher than last night:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14458723

[AspRover]

I'll believe it when I see it.

[RovertheHill]

Excellent article. Very surprised the Tory bible ran it although the outraged comments below it are more typical of that newspaper's profile.

Like I said in my earlier post blaming one year of the current government for the disaffection of youth is an easy and lazy thing to do. Take this graph for example

You can see clearly that unemployment in under 25's was falling between the years of 1993 and 2001 - through Conservative and Labour governments. Between 2001 and 2009 unemployment in under 25's very nearly doubled, whilst total unemployment certainly didn't. In 1993 youth unemployment was 17.9% of the total. In 2001 it was 12%. By 2009 it was 19.1%. Disenfranchised? Disaffected? Remind me again who was the government during this period? To put it in context, during the last government it increased from 14.1% to 19.1%, an extra 270,000.

The majority of this is not down to disaffection at all. It is down to greed and lawlessness. The people doing the looting in many cases are dressed in more expensive clothes and gear than most. It's not about poverty.

[Darwen Rover]

The root cause of these issues in my opinion is the fundamental lack of respect we currently have in society driven by the individualistic 'as long as your happy' materialistic culture!

Success is measured by the size of the plasma on your wall; whereas 50/60 years ago, success was respect and integrity..

Break down of traditional family values in turn for selfish individual whims as well as a clear lack of discipline in schools has caused this issue..

The solution in my opinion is a fundamental look and review of how we are currently brain washing our population the primary mechanism beung the television.. And also to look at the way we enforce discipline both in the judicial system and more importantly the schools...

I find it embarrassing that the Arabs rioted for freedom from suppression of puppet leaders yet our people are rioting for a mobile phone or plasma tv!!

[LeChuck]

Success is measured by the size of the plasma on your wall

Only by people with vulgar taste!

[arachnica]

We've now got our high street being patrolled by the Millwall Firm. Weird days.

[Henwah]

I'm hearing via a few facebook friends that there is some sort of trouble brewing in Preston (around Deepdale and Avenham I've been told) - no idea if this is just a rumour or what, just passing it on.

[koi]

The Salford Precinct rumours are thankfully untrue according to police and journalists. GMP are in strength in some of the adjacent estates from pics I have just seen.

London preternaturally calm. Very little traffic and shops all shut and boarded up.

Well knowing people on the ground I can tell you it is kicking off in Salford and they're expecting it to escalate.

[SAS]

Two cars on fire overturned in Salford....

[LeChuck]

Salford has large quantities of scum, no surprise there.

Manchester city centre is getting hammered, MEN live blog following it: http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1455173_live-blog---disturbances-in-manchester-and-salford

Why aren't the police going in with tear gas and so on? It's disgusting. I'd be happy if they were shooting to kill, the peopel doing this are nothing more than scum.

[Ste B]

M&S in manchester about 1800 today, on way home from work.

http://twitgoo.com/2min11

All seemed to go off about 1730 - I saw a few coppers heading up the road near work, and a few scrotes got split up. Miss Selfridge has had a fire. General sense is a few were heading into Manc centre with the intention of kicking off.

[jim mk2]

Cameron needs to regain control of events quickly, or risk forever having his premiership, like Thatcher with the burning streets of Toxteth and the poll tax riots, illustrated by images of burning furniture stores and disaffected youth running around looting in feral gangs. Parliament has not been recalled for nine years, but Cameron has found himself being forced to recall politicians for emergency sessions two times in two months – first for the phone-hacking scandal and now the breakdown of law and order. Many will see this as a defining moment when the public-school elite ("we're all in this together") running Britain lost touch with the country.

[ABBEY]

Make the scum join the army unpaid.if they refuse lock em up for twenty years.whilst they riot water cannons filled with sewage!F they want to fight I'm sure there will be some Taliban in Afghanistan up for a meet.

[PAFELL]

So do the liberal elite feel that we should just converse with these misguided little darlings with dirty faces and a misguided sense of political protest?

I will tell you this -

While you all waffle about higher principles and how everyone is good and we just need to engage them in debate, there are men in uniforms trying to hold back a tide of people who want your head. And we are getting mighty fed up of it. You do not understand how insulated from the real hate and unraveling that we all are.

Talk your enlighted talk and read your manifesto to the fire light of London burning.

When your capital is under seige from the dregs of society, you can still find ways to lay the blame elsewhere. Those dirt bags have never known real need in their lives.

I used to rake in skips when I was young, looking for copper, brass, and bottles to turn in for money. I used to find spectrum tapes and eight tracks and tape the snaps up and repair them and sell them for 20p. I remember being so hungry that when I finally ate something I threw it up, it was a Blue Ribbon that an old lady gave me from a tea room that I snuck into so I could get a drink from the sink in the public toilet.

I never once stole anything. You know why? Because I respected the law and I, even as a child, understood that to get anywhere in life you have to work.

You see my biological father was an alcoholic giro casher. Wouldn't keep a job, drink all his money away and lie stupid in our council house until his drink money was available again. I was left to my own devices.

I had the ability and the reason to be these degenerate scum. But I am not. You know why?

Personal ###### responsibility!

It may be harder but I tell you it is far far sweeter.

This is the best post I have ever seen on this messageboard.

Written from experience, not from a book.

I can relate to much of what you wrote from my own experiences. You get knocked down, you get up and keep going. staying within the law.

Unlike you I lack the courage to go into detail on a messageboard.

Full respect for what you went came through and for sharing it on this messageboard.

[Exiled_Rover]

Ok now it's pissing me off. I have no ties to London, but I bloody love Manchester.

This really is just an excuse to loot and set things on fire isn't it? Unleash the hounds.