[Archived] The Relegation Thread

[John]

Sky sports 1 now.

[Waggy76]

If there are three teams worse than us this season I haven't seen them. I'm resigned to us going down it's less painful that way.

I agree unfortunately , just cannot see a way out with the present playing staff and manager ...

Will be interesting to see how Wolves go on today , it is a game they could win Fulham are erratic ..

Wigan seem to be self destructing

QPR difficult run in but best players as a squad in bottom 5 ..

Bolton me thinks will definately stay up ..

I honestly believe we have the worst squad and manager in the division , must admit being surprised by Wigan and QPR thought they would have more points by now ....

Miracles happen let's hope so ..

[Pedro]

At one stage it wouldn't have mattered who replaced Kean, such was the negative atmosphere that he brought to the club/fans.

Just not having him stood at the side of the pitch would have united the fans behind any new manager.

However, the issue has now firmly shifted towards Venkys due to their inaction and the team they have saddled us with. No proper manager would put up with the way the club appears to be set up and would have difficulty getting consistency out of the squad he'd inherit.

That said it's a fine line to not even look for alternatives, if Kean was to ever walk away, maybe citing the pressure, he would have to be replaced anyway. Of course we would have no candidates until the Summer - assuming we stay up - and even then it would require Venkys to change their organisational approach and spending policy to both attract a decent manager and avoid relegation the following season. This would mean admitting they got it wrong which I don't think will ever happen.

It's so depressing to think that staying up will simply extend the slow death of the club by another 12 months. A bit like being on death row and getting an 11th hour postponement. Except that the chief warden will get a medal or two on your behalf.

The only chink of light would be that if we are now debt free and stay up, would the Sky money be put towards strengthening the squad and replacing the manager? I just can't see it though.

Struggling to see how else we will ever be rid of this bunch and their ways - aside from the money drying up through relegation.

Stuart, whether I am wrong or right this is pretty much exactly my thinking. I honestly feel that the Venkys felt the need to cut costs drastically - to which I totally agree. If we fans are honest too, they aren't exactly paying off debts they have built up, more paying off inherited debts. They also (knowingly) inherited a lot of very average players on high wages and good bonuses and that has had to have been addressed too.

Even though I personally think we will stay up, as strange as it sounds a year in the Championship wouldn't be the final nail in the coffin that it may have been at the end of last season - due to the massively reduced wage bill. If we can stay up I think things will be much rosier and I feel we will get a true indication of what is really happening at the club when the next accounts are posted and we can better trace where the transfer monies have come and gone...either that or we will see if we are being well and truly shafted

As I've always said I don't think the Venkys are asset stripping, merely making the club sustainable and self-sufficient - and as you've rightly said if the debts are clearing (and as we know the wage bill has reduced massively) then the income from Sky can be re-invested in the team, rather than swallowed up on debt servicing and paying overpaid squad players who have a lesser impact than someone like Lowe, Hanley and Olsson. I genuinely feel that the medium term plan will be to buy young talent and sell it on for profit - but that's pretty much the remit of the last 20 years in my eyes, so I can easily deal with that. If the debts are paid off then hopefully we will be able to see investments in terms of better quality players and a better manager, but whoever comes in will have to toe the line in terms of abiding by the way in which budget is king and possibly even team selection is even influenced by budget, decisions are enforced and will have to put up with a lot of interference - in my eyes that's a very limited market!

[gumboots]

Stuart, whether I am wrong or right this is pretty much exactly my thinking. I honestly feel that the Venkys felt the need to cut costs drastically - to which I totally agree. If we fans are honest too, they aren't exactly paying off debts they have built up, more paying off inherited debts. They also (knowingly) inherited a lot of very average players on high wages and good bonuses and that has had to have been addressed too.

Even though I personally think we will stay up, as strange as it sounds a year in the Championship wouldn't be the final nail in the coffin that it may have been at the end of last season - due to the massively reduced wage bill. If we can stay up I think things will be much rosier and I feel we will get a true indication of what is really happening at the club when the next accounts are posted and we can better trace where the transfer monies have come and gone...either that or we will see if we are being well and truly shafted

As I've always said I don't think the Venkys are asset stripping, merely making the club sustainable and self-sufficient - and as you've rightly said if the debts are clearing (and as we know the wage bill has reduced massively) then the income from Sky can be re-invested in the team, rather than swallowed up on debt servicing and paying overpaid squad players who have a lesser impact than someone like Lowe, Hanley and Olsson. I genuinely feel that the medium term plan will be to buy young talent and sell it on for profit - but that's pretty much the remit of the last 20 years in my eyes, so I can easily deal with that. If the debts are paid off then hopefully we will be able to see investments in terms of better quality players and a better manager, but whoever comes in will have to toe the line in terms of abiding by the way in which budget is king and possibly even team selection is even influenced by budget, decisions are enforced and will have to put up with a lot of interference - in my eyes that's a very limited market!

You'd be walking a very fine line too because income is decided by league position so selling too many too soon would see us drop down the earnings table and losing income that would pay wages etc. It may be more sensible to stay within budget - the French do it every season. the club sets a budget and has to stick to it more or less exactly I believe - but that way lies misery in terms of watching your team, making progress or building towards increased revenue on a sustainable basis - selling good players leads to relegation and there is a limit to how many you can bring in develop and sell.

[John]

Just said on Sky closest it has been at the bottom of the table in 18 years.

[Waggy76]

Which actual football manager do you think would come here at this stage of the game?v

I ahve not thought about it , but I would think who ever it could be ,would be a big improvement on the present one !!

[m1st]

Which actual football manager do you think would come here at this stage of the game?v

None that would be much use to us. Look at how none of even "the usual suspects [Curbishley; Bruce et al]" would touch Wolves with a bargepole.

[Pedro]

You'd be walking a very fine line too because income is decided by league position so selling too many too soon would see us drop down the earnings table and losing income that would pay wages etc. It may be more sensible to stay within budget - the French do it every season. the club sets a budget and has to stick to it more or less exactly I believe - but that way lies misery in terms of watching your team, making progress or building towards increased revenue on a sustainable basis - selling good players leads to relegation and there is a limit to how many you can bring in develop and sell.

I totally appreciate we are on the edge but if we stay up I feel we will be able to re-invest. I agree that selling good players often leads to relegation and unfortunately I think we miss Emerton, Jones, Nelsen and Samba because their replacements are of a lesser standard and far minimal experience. As for the others who have gone, they were just run of the mill players in my eyes who made little impact...the sub-standard Premier League is full of them these days.

[Stuart]

Pedro, great post on the other page but correct me if I'm wrong, is your view that Venkys medium term plan is to take us back to where we where when they bought us?

They won't do that on the wages they want to pay. If they could JW would have done that years ago and the Trust wouldn't have sold, IMHO.

[Pedro]

Pedro, great post on the other page but correct me if I'm wrong, is your view that Venkys medium term plan is to take us back to where we where when they bought us?

They won't do that on the wages they want to pay. If they could JW would have done that years ago and the Trust wouldn't have sold, IMHO.

Sorry for being thick but I'm not sure what you mean by take us back to where we were when they bought us. If you mean a competitive mid table team then yes, I'd imagine that is their aim but with a squad that isn't saturated with such high earning average players that throttle the finances.

My guess is that they want to clear the debts and won't actually shell out for big established names on long-term full time contracts - although I think we may get the odd experienced player in on loan etc or occasional damaged goods type player like Bellamy.

It's much more likely that they'll buy young or little known players, blood them, then sell them on for profit. (My original reasoning being that we are well used to this over the course of the last 20 years with players that range from Sherwood, Berg, Le Saux, Duff, Dunn, Jones etc. - so it wouldn't shock or bother me if this became our future) In my mind it would probably make sense for them to get someone inexperienced (or out of form) up and running and then sell them on when they are more sought after and are costing us too much per week...then restart the cycle again - which is pretty much what we did last decade but will no doubt pee off a large section of whatever fanbase we are left with.

[John]

Pedro, who do you think is coming up with this strategy given the owners don't understand football or have any experience of running a club properly?

[gumboots]

Sorry for being thick but I'm not sure what you mean by take us back to where we were when they bought us. If you mean a competitive mid table team then yes, I'd imagine that is their aim but with a squad that isn't saturated with such high earning average players that throttle the finances.

My guess is that they want to clear the debts and won't actually shell out for big established names on long-term full time contracts - although I think we may get the odd experienced player in on loan etc or occasional damaged goods type player like Bellamy.

It's much more likely that they'll buy young or little known players, blood them, then sell them on for profit. (My original reasoning being that we are well used to this over the course of the last 20 years with players that range from Sherwood, Berg, Le Saux, Duff, Dunn, Jones etc. - so it wouldn't shock or bother me if this became our future) In my mind it would probably make sense for them to get someone inexperienced (or out of form) up and running and then sell them on when they are more sought after and are costing us too much per week...then restart the cycle again - which is pretty much what we did last decade but will no doubt pee off a large section of whatever fanbase we are left with.

The problem is it relies on your being able to bring in quality players to be finished. As Hughes pointed out a while ago - it's becoming increasingly difficult to pull rabbits out of hats - and that goes double now when young English players from lower leagues are going for ridiculous fees, and bringing South Americans in would seem to be very hit and miss if our experience is anything to go by. Africans too can be great but how many do you have to pick up to find a gem - France has found real problems with this in that a large number of youngsters brought in are discarded early and then don't fit in anywhere. There's been quite a scandal over the treatment of some young players. You can always have one or two youngsters and older previously discarded players but as a business model?

[david_daft]

Fulham 1-0 up

[Lurid Coat]

2-0 now, Pogrebnyak is on fire.

[david_daft]

Fulham 2-0 up now

[John]

Wolves look woeful.

Fulham can be difficult opposition at the Cottage though.

[rovers11]

Can see a few more goals in this for fulham, wolves look hopeless. Has to be Martin Olsson and Hoilett on the wings next week - wolves look very vulnerable there.

[DE.]

Top player is the Pog. Shame we didn't go for him when we had the chance.

[Lurid Coat]

Top player is the Pog. Shame we didn't go for him when we had the chance.

I believe we did, but I think he snubbed us and then slagged us off in the papers.

3-0 now, Clint Dempsey. Wolves look absolutely rubbish, and their caretaker manager looks completely clueless. Still, they'll be up against an almost (?) equally rubbish team with what is possibly an even worse manager next Saturday.

Edit: 4-0 now, hat trick for Pog. Wolves' GD taking a battering.

[Pedro]

Pedro, who do you think is coming up with this strategy given the owners don't understand football or have any experience of running a club properly?

If you look at it, it is a pure and simple business strategy and as much as we like to pretend, they certainly aren't idiots. In their eyes there is the potential for profit and growth if the debts are paid, the wage bill is cut and a tiny part of the Indian market is tapped into. So far the debts are being paid off (probably earlier than they anticipated!) the wage bill is being cut back (both in terms of board members and management/players) and the opportunity for overseas growth is still VERY plausable. If we stop and think that there are at best 25,000 Rovers fans that financially contribute in some way to the club...what tiny percentage of the 1.2billion Indians alone would we actually need to win over in order to make money off?? I seriously imagine that the strategy of winning over Indians sits in the forefront of their minds much closer than winning over disgruntled Rovers fans who have vowed not to spend any more money than necessary.

Also, as I mentioned previously, we have used the strategy of buying youth, blooding them and selling them on, very well in the past so that's another possible avenue to go down...quite how much Miles Anderson is going to be worth is anyones guess

Also, I must say that in their defence if "understanding football and running a club properly" is accumilating tens of millions of pounds of crippling debt like at most teams in the Premier League, then maybe they have a better understanding of football than many supporters and boardrooms throughout the country. The ###### is going to hit the fan in the Premier League very shortly, average teams no longer have superstars to cash in on to service their debts and money doesn't grow on trees. There is also the threat of SKY losing the monopoly of rights on Premier League matches and that can only mean one thing, drop in income for clubs. So just maybe we might end up in a much stronger position than quite a few clubs in the next couple of years... or maybe we'll suffer our fate much sooner - who really knows

[Tom]

4-0 Pog hattrick

Shame we got lumped with Kalinic instead of him

[DE.]

I believe we did, but I think he snubbed us and then slagged us off in the papers.

3-0 now, Clint Dempsey. Wolves look absolutely rubbish, and their caretaker manager looks completely clueless. Still, they'll be up against an almost (?) equally rubbish team with what is possibly an even worse manager next Saturday.

Edit: 4-0 now, hat trick for Pog. Wolves' GD taking a battering.

Is that so? Well... I think I speak for all of us when I say all is forgiven?

[BuckyRover]

Apparently his first five Premierhip shots have resulted in five goals.

[Pedro]

The problem is it relies on your being able to bring in quality players to be finished. As Hughes pointed out a while ago - it's becoming increasingly difficult to pull rabbits out of hats - and that goes double now when young English players from lower leagues are going for ridiculous fees, and bringing South Americans in would seem to be very hit and miss if our experience is anything to go by. Africans too can be great but how many do you have to pick up to find a gem - France has found real problems with this in that a large number of youngsters brought in are discarded early and then don't fit in anywhere. There's been quite a scandal over the treatment of some young players. You can always have one or two youngsters and older previously discarded players but as a business model?

I don't disagree entirely and certainly agree with it being very hit and miss. I just feel that it is something they might do and that it might actually work now that (in my eyes) the standard of the league has dropped dramatically. Outside of Eastlands I cannot truly think of anyone who is world class (I'm sure there are one or two but they escape me at the minute!) and even average players and average teams can have an impact in the Premier League these days.

[Hanks]

Wolves look awful and every chance of Fulham going nap,