[Archived] Our Debt

[blue_and_white]

As there's quite a few people on here who seem to be (or claim to be) in the know about club matters, can anyone tell me what the current state of the club's debt is? Venkys have made a £15m profit on transfers so far this summer, but the reports were that the bank demanded most/all of this to pay off what we owed. If this has been done then I suppose you could say at least we're now a virtually debt-free club (I understand the debt was about £20m previously) and maybe it aint Venkys fault that the bank called it in. If this hasn't been done then as most are beginning to suspect Venkys have pocketed the money, are basically asset stripping us and we can probably expect more of the same in future windows.

[Hughesy]

One of the Venkys mentioned on a sky article last week that we were now debt free.....so not sure.

Time will tell - we should hopefully be abit clearer on our future by 11pm.

[Paul]

It's fairly simple. At the time of the takeover Rovers debt was circa £20-23m secured against the club assets. This was supposed to be paid off by Venky's but was in fact transferred to Venky's London Ltd - if the club was still responsible for the debt remains to be seen. After the takeover Venky's took out a SECOND loan / charge secured against the income from worldwide media rights for the 2010/11 season - this is rumoured to have been in the region of £18m.

Barclays (second loan) got p!ssed off with Venky's and demanded the repayment of the £18m, this is where the Jones and Kalinic money went.

I think the first loan (Venky's London) is also with Barclays. Whether or not this loan has been called in I can't say.

It all boils down to the club being skint, in debt and unable to conduct any sensible business because there is no money and no sane human being left to talk to. Just because Balaji Rao says something doesn't necessarily mean it's true, half-true or even vaguely based on a dream he had three nights previously. I don't believe a word of the club being debt free - we are stoney broke.

[Hughesy]

It's fairly simple. At the time of the takeover Rovers debt was circa £20-23m secured against the club assets. This was supposed to be paid off by Venky's but was in fact transferred to Venky's London Ltd - if the club was still responsible for the debt remains to be seen. After the takeover Venky's took out a SECOND loan / charge secured against the income from worldwide media rights for the 2010/11 season - this is rumoured to have been in the region of £18m.

Barclays (second loan) got p!ssed off with Venky's and demanded the repayment of the £18m, this is where the Jones and Kalinic money went.

I think the first loan (Venky's London) is also with Barclays. Whether or not this loan has been called in I can't say.

It all boils down to the club being skint, in debt and unable to conduct any sensible business because there is no money and no sane human being left to talk to. Just because Balaji Rao says something doesn't necessarily mean it's true, half-true or even vaguely based on a dream he had three nights previously. I don't believe a word of the club being debt free - we are stoney broke.

So it clearly isnt simple then is it?! Lots of assumptions in there....despite someone (an owner) say we have no debt.

As for Barclays getting p!ssed with Venkys - whats the excuse at Villa & Everton who they also called in??

Lets not guess eh....just wait till we have some accurate info. AT THE MOMENT the only line we have is the one from one of the owners last week on sky.

[blue_and_white]

It's fairly simple. At the time of the takeover Rovers debt was circa £20-23m secured against the club assets. This was supposed to be paid off by Venky's but was in fact transferred to Venky's London Ltd - if the club was still responsible for the debt remains to be seen. After the takeover Venky's took out a SECOND loan / charge secured against the income from worldwide media rights for the 2010/11 season - this is rumoured to have been in the region of £18m.

Barclays (second loan) got p!ssed off with Venky's and demanded the repayment of the £18m, this is where the Jones and Kalinic money went.

I think the first loan (Venky's London) is also with Barclays. Whether or not this loan has been called in I can't say.

It all boils down to the club being skint, in debt and unable to conduct any sensible business because there is no money and no sane human being left to talk to. Just because Balaji Rao says something doesn't necessarily mean it's true, half-true or even vaguely based on a dream he had three nights previously. I don't believe a word of the club being debt free - we are stoney broke.

So you're saying our £20-23m debt hasn't been paid off at all with this summer's transfers as they've gone towards paying off an additional £18m loan instead? If that's the case what was the £18m from this second loan spent on?

[philipl]

So it clearly isnt simple then is it?! Lots of assumptions in there....despite someone (an owner) say we have no debt.

As for Barclays getting p!ssed with Venkys - whats the excuse at Villa & Everton who they also called in??

Lets not guess eh....just wait till we have some accurate info. AT THE MOMENT the only line we have is the one from one of the owners last week on sky.

Some of us are happy clappies.

Others of us can read the mortgage debentures filed at Companies House by Rovers and Venky's London.

Paul is correct in all aspects except at the time of the sale, the actual overdraft being used under the Trust was down to £14m. The overdraft facility Venky's London opened secured on Rovers' assets was £17m repayable over three years although Paul is right in saying there are rumours that Barclays are calling it in early.

[Paul]

So it clearly isnt simple then is it?! Lots of assumptions in there....despite someone (an owner) say we have no debt.

As for Barclays getting p!ssed with Venkys - whats the excuse at Villa & Everton who they also called in??

Lets not guess eh....just wait till we have some accurate info. AT THE MOMENT the only line we have is the one from one of the owners last week on sky.

OK Hughesy if you want to believe what Uncle Balaji says that's OK with me.

As for the rest it is VERY simple - well for some - Venky's took out a second loan for £18m which Barclays took back from Jones / Kalinic transfers. It was me that alerted you all to this in January, though of course many saw it as business practice. Borrow money, sell assets to repay it all perfectly normal.

I've no idea what the excuse at Villa and Everton is. I'm not interested in Villa and Everton. You chose to see everything in blue and white rather than listen to what people say. Likie Phil Jones would be sold to United in the summer - I knew this in December.

How is the car park going? Still reckon £10 a throw is OK or haven't they built it yet?

[Neil Weaver]

AT THE MOMENT the only line we have is the one from one of the owners last week on sky.

......... whose quotes are about as reliable as a 1960 Ford Prefect that's done 200 000 miles. Still Hughesy, you believe what you want, some others will continue with a bit of reality.

[yoda]

......... whose quotes are about as reliable as a 1960 Ford Prefect that's done 200 000 miles. Still Hughesy, you believe what you want, some others will continue with a bit of reality.

I would say the car is infinately more reliable, the ford prefect owners club will be suing you

[Hughesy]

As for the rest it is VERY simple - well for some - Venky's took out a second loan for £18m which Barclays took back from Jones / Kalinic transfers. It was me that alerted you all to this in January, though of course many saw it as business practice.

How is the car park going? Still reckon £10 a throw is OK or haven't they built it yet?

Very simple? So you can say for FACT we still have the original debt against the london company???

We got paid half of the Jones money.....how did they therefore take £18m back, especially when Kalinic wasnt all upfront either?!

As for car park - yes its still full every home game @ £10 a time!

[thenodrog]

Paul is right in saying there are rumours that Barclays are calling it in early.

It's not just us though is it? I think I've read Everton, Villa, and Spurs are being squeezed by Barclays too.

I'd imagine Barclays analysts are viewing the runaway train that is the Premier League as currently speeding up just before the buffers come into view. The harsh economic situation and old Murdochs current position can't be helping instill confidence into the money lenders either.

[philipl]

Very simple? So you can say for FACT we still have the original debt against the london company???

We got paid half of the Jones money.....how did they therefore take £18m back, especially when Kalinic wasnt all upfront either?!

As for car park - yes its still full every home game @ £10 a time!

If the we have been released from the security taken out against ll the club's assets, it ould have been registered at Companies House.

So yes fact

[AndyC]

So you're saying our £20-23m debt hasn't been paid off at all with this summer's transfers as they've gone towards paying off an additional £18m loan instead? If that's the case what was the £18m from this second loan spent on?

agents fees

pay offs to staff

rochina

formica

vastly inflated salaries to get samba etc to stay

wages to pay loan move for santa cruz

[blue_and_white]

agents fees

pay offs to staff

rochina

formica

vastly inflated salaries to get samba etc to stay

wages to pay loan move for santa cruz

Find it hard to believe that adds up to £18m. Assuming thats the case though, basically implies that Venkys policy is to recoup any money on purchases/contracts/fees with future sales. So they're not really putting any money into the club at all.

[Paul]

You got it in one. Venkys were lead to believe running a football club wouldn't cost them ££££. Now the reality has dawned it's apparent they either do not have or are unwilling to spend the money.

It appears to me the Raos believed all they had to do was turn up in the director's box once in a while. There was never any intention to get their hands dirty.

[AndyC]

You got it in one. Venkys were lead to believe running a football club wouldn't cost them ££££. Now the reality has dawned it's apparent they either do not have or are unwilling to spend the money.

It appears to me the Raos believed all they had to do was turn up in the director's box once in a while. There was never any intention to get their hands dirty.

Just proven by this transfer window.

Total income exceeds total expenditure on player sales.

Even though the trust put in very little money, at least trusted them.

[stuwilky]

For the record I am no "pro Venky" person either.

How much was the club losing anyway? The accounts are public knowledge but frankly its too late too root out my copies? Multiple millions a season?

Its not as simple as "sell a player get x", "but player y only cost less than that"

It seems somethine untoward is afoot somewhere, probably in the middle of all of this lies the truth of matter.

Note - not withstanding those nasty rumours about what lies beneath, this is simply 1+1 isnt always 2 in football (sadly).

[RevidgeBlue]

It all boils down to the club being skint, in debt and unable to conduct any sensible business because there is no money and no sane human being left to talk to.

Errr..........so where has the 6m (rising to 8m) come from for Dann if that's the case plus the fees for Yakubu and Slew and how also did all those deals get done if there was no-one sensible left at the Club to finalise them?

[CrazyIvan]

It strikes me, writing just after the window has closed, that things aren't as bad as some like to paint. I'm far from happy with where the club is right now and things are far from perfect but the sky hasn't fallen in, Big Chris HASN'T been sold (and neither has Junior) and, for once, we've actually signed some established, decent players for real money. It doesn't appear that we're broke now does it?

[Miker]

Of course stu. But if people on here want to get the pitch forks out and shout out the simple stuff... "WHY'S OUR DEBT NOT BEEN PAID OFF?" "OUR PLAYERS SOLD IS MORE THAN OUR PLAYERS BOUGHT!" then they can get simple mathematical responses.

Since Venky's have come in we have spent the transfer money brought in from players sold and spent it on new players. That bit does actually add up although I'm sure it's a bit more complex than that. But what about all the other expenses? Or for the sake of making Venky's look like the bad foreign owners that some people wish they are, shall we conveniently ignore those expenses?

Now I'm still sceptical about the owners and they do have a lot to prove. And I'm not for believing everything that comes out of their mouths, either. But all I can do as a simpleton with half a brain is observe the ingoings and outgoings as far as transfers are concerned. But somehow the £20m both in and out since they came to own us is somehow classed as asset stripping. Totally laughable.

This is my view too. Some of the money may have been poorly spent and poor decisions may have been made, but I don't see any evidence of asset stripping. Unless philip and Paul are suggesting that the club has taken out 2 seperate loans, used them to finance their player wages and acquisitions and have pocketed the money earned off Jones and Kalinic? If that is the case then where are these accounts that they've seen proving this? If we have 2 unpaid loans out against the club, and neither has been paid with the Kalinic/Jones money then that would be disastrous for the club and any relevant information should be made public knowledge.

If this isn't the case though, then I don't see how it is of any concern at all? Surely a company paying off their loans with player sales isn't shocking in the least. How else do people expect them to pay off the club's debts? You don't buy something as an investment if you don't expect to have some financial gain from it. We weren't bought by billionaire owners looking for a new toy to play with. We were bought by a company looking to use the club for marketing purposes, while keeping the club sustainable.

[Miker]

I should add that given our gate receipts are one of the worst in the league, our Sky money would have fallen due to finishing 15th twice in the last 3 seasons and our wage bill was over 80% of our turnover 1 or 2 seasons back (and probably hasn't improved by much), is it any wonder that we are being very careful with the money we spend?

[Paul]

Can someone point to a post where philip or I have accused Venky's of asset stripping? I agree many have said this but I most certainly have not.

It's now being suggested Venkys bought rovers as an investment. I find this very difficult to take seriously. Money to be made from Rovers? Impossible without asset stripping. Venkys bought the club because they believed it was possible to own the club, turn up and smile occasionally while allowing a third party to run it for them at no or little cost. Now they are beginning to understand this is not the case.

As for the rest please look up Company House and download the info which is held there. It will cost around £2.

[waggy]

lets face it,having indian owners is a nightmare,they shop at the europound shop,they make big noises about signing players and we end up with a centre forward who was playing in the championship last season.i read in the telewag they made record profits of 10million pounds soon after they took over at ewood,that would not buy the big toe of a decent player.they took a loan out to buy the club,saddling us with debt.sooner they pack there bags and go back to india the better

[Reedy You're A Star]

lets face it,having indian owners is a nightmare,they shop at the europound shop,they make big noises about signing players and we end up with a centre forward who was playing in the championship last season.i read in the telewag they made record profits of 10million pounds soon after they took over at ewood,that would not buy the big toe of a decent player.they took a loan out to buy the club,saddling us with debt.sooner they pack there bags and go back to india the better

I'm no fan of Venky's, but that's because they have made a major hash of their "masterplan" and still haven't fired Kean, the useless git, yet. Your major problem with them seems to be that they are Indian...

[clitheroerover]

Can someone point to a post where philip or I have accused Venky's of asset stripping? I agree many have said this but I most certainly have not.

It's now being suggested Venkys bought rovers as an investment. I find this very difficult to take seriously. Money to be made from Rovers? Impossible without asset stripping. Venkys bought the club because they believed it was possible to own the club, turn up and smile occasionally while allowing a third party to run it for them at no or little cost. Now they are beginning to understand this is not the case.

As for the rest please look up Company House and download the info which is held there. It will cost around £2.

Companies House documents will show that a facility has been made available not that it has been drawn down (used). Do we have evidence that the Club made use of the facility?