[Archived] Our Debt

[old darwen blue]

Save your money and go to,

98 Cockfosters Road

Barnet

Hertfordshire

EN4 0DP

Who lives there then?

[LeftWinger]

Who lives there then?

The new Chris Smallings dad.

[roverandout]

we own part of that house since its the clubs money that he has probably purchased things with, i will smash up the things i bought for it!!!

[bob fleming]

Absolutely superb post aletheia.

[King Kenny's Magic]

Miker

A very thoughtful and interesting post, particularly on the control of information (you’re not Agnew in disguise?). In fact, this is a major gripe of the fans, that they have no voice in the control of information and thus use one of the few weapons available to them in protest. Whose fault is it that there is a vacuum in both leadership and contact? Hardly surprising that wild ideas flourish. As Paul says, you are also just another pundit claiming to have knowledge which you cannot divulge and sets you counter to the anxiety that fills these boards. As to the scurrilous campaign to oust Venkys prior to bid approaches which you dislike so much, well most feel it is a pity such “misinformation “ (if it is) didn’t work –we may be in a much better place now if it had. If the Venkys haven’t a planned strategy for asset stripping, which I agree seems to be far too extreme and controlled then what do we have here? Naive incompetents who belie the business acumen you ascribe to them. You try to defend them with the argument that other directors know nothing about football too –of course, but they have a whole swathe of competent management that knows what they are doing. Ours was eliminated for who knows what.

You intention seems to be to shift the blame from the Raos to those who have orchestrated a campaign to undermine them which in turn has influenced the gullible sheep who are Rovers fans thus making Ewood poisonous. You feel it is this which will destroy the club. We are now in the realms of conspiracy and information/misinformation that you despise. Do you really believe that if we all now calmly pull together everything will be OK?

Ultimately, your sophistry as an apologist for the Raos won’t wash and is somewhat patrician and patronising. You rightly point out that the club is imploding but expect cool heads? Are “average people” not allowed to take action? You rightly exhort fans to treat the owners as human beings but does that work both ways? When have the Raos shown any humanity recently? Accept mistakes publically? Is confiscating protest banners treating fans with humanity? Even Ashley at Newcastle wouldn’t stoop so low. Actions have to be taken to cool things down, not empty rhetoric, spin and publicity gestures which treat fans as servile imbeciles. I fail to see how your call for fans to calm down and get some perspective advances the situation in any way.

Whatever their intentions, the fact remains that in the space of a year under Venkys, BRFC have become a laughing stock; from being a well-run mid-table club punching way above its weight in terms of finance and support, it has become a candidate for administration, an organisation with no serious management structure, controlled by warring siblings who answer to nobody and circled by all kinds of spurious vested interests. In short, the fans feel utterly beleaguered, isolated and powerless: like a bad dream, we hear one revelation after another, like a car crash in slow motion. If it were a script, it would be black comedy; just when you thought things could not get worse or another stupid decision couldn’t be made, it happens. Are we supposed to just smile, clap and carry on watching our club die?

Fantastic post. Ruddy marvellous in fact! Black comedy? Yeah i get that,perhaps genre blend it with film noir,sort of in the essence of that Comic Strip production involving Tony Blair last night on C4(which was proper funny i might add).

we own part of that house since its the clubs money that he has probably purchased things with, i will smash up the things i bought for it!!!

Kudos mate i like your style!

[jim mk2]

I don't mean to be funny, but have you ever even been to Ewood?

Miker has never been to Ewood. He lives in Australia and (I believe) has seen Rovers play live once on the tour Down Under where he was shocked by the swearing and bad language !

He is a charlatan who knows little about football and should be ignored.

[perthblue02]

I thought Venkys London limited was set up to deal solely with Rovers , obviously not if you read this My link Looks like another Blingy flight of fancy

[roverandout]

i dont like people belittling people who just because they live miles away and dont go to games that they are not true fans, miker might be talking ###### but he is still a rovers fan, i dont agree with anything he has said on this matter but im sure he wants rovers to do well!!!

[MullenVoid]

Hi,

I was just looking at the BRFC accounts of recent years and noticed that in the year ended 30-Jun-06, we had a huge influx of capital. Shares went from £54m to £134m. So somebody put £80m into the club. The majority of which paid off some long term finance/mortgage.

Not that it's relevant to our current plight, but does anyone remember anything about this from the time?

[Paul]

Around this time the Walker Trust converted existings loans to share capital. The money had already been spent, there was no sudden influx of cash.

[47er]

I have no intention of positing myself as ITK. I will only post based on observations and analysis.

Except I have no intention to argue. I was asked why I am defending the Rao family, and I have stated my reasons and then clarified some of them. The rest is up to you guys to decide or interpret how you want. I'm not stupid enough to think that I can make some sort of impact or change your mindset in regards to this. My hope is that people simply think about it from a different point of view.

What different point of view is there? We're bottom, no chance of escape, about to lose some of our best players, owners won't/can't put money in, administration is a real possibility (probability?) down the line, worst manager we've ever had is still in situ----------what defence is possible?

There's always someone on here who sets himself up as "the reasonable man" against the hordes of thick barbarians (the rest of us).

Currently that man is you.

[thenodrog]

As ever, here in peace. As an interested observer my understanding was not only did they actually only pay the 22 million above but haven't they subsequently secured this sum as a mortgage against the club? Sure I read that somewhere - in which case they haven't in fact used any of their own money to buy the club.

I have no idea on motives, reasons, truth, lies or videotape BUT what is clear to the whole football world is your club is in trouble. It matters not whether somebody intended to create the situation they have or not, it should be enough that it exists and action to rectify it needed to be taken months ago - leaving it until the end of January will most likely condemn you to relegation, a player fire sale and a dog fight in the championship to get back up within 2 seasons.

On a final point. The biggest single mystery to me is what happened with English footballs safest chairman. If this was my club, that one thing more than all the others would set my alarm bells ringing. He was either pushed, which makes no sense, or, perhaps even more worryingly, he jumped. If he jumped what had he seen, heard or feared?

The default sentence used frequently during negotiations was 'whatever happens you cannot lose financially from paying this money out to buy BRFC'

2. We need to contact Barclays and vent our concerns. Surely they can force something? The banks run the world.

The tough line Barclays have taken suggests to me that they share our concerns about the owners and have done for some time.

[Miker]

What different point of view is there? We're bottom, no chance of escape, about to lose some of our best players, owners won't/can't put money in, administration is a real possibility (probability?) down the line, worst manager we've ever had is still in situ----------what defence is possible?

There's always someone on here who sets himself up as "the reasonable man" against the hordes of thick barbarians (the rest of us).

Currently that man is you.

You've listed 3 things that are down to the manager/being in the relegation zone, and 3 things that are suppositions. What do I need to defend against?

I will only comment after I've thoroughly thought about my stance and taken everything into consideration. I agree where I think someone says something is sensible and I disagree when that something is not. I have been part of the majority and the minority on certain issues, at the end of the day I am confident with my analysis and firmly stand behind it. Whether you want to believe that I'm a contrarian, "the reasonable man", a Venky's employee, Paul Agnew, Paul Hunt, or whoever else is your choice.

I don't believe you actually think that though. You're just trying to rationalise my views because you can't accept them. Interestingly for me, it reveals your rationalising process in general.

[MullenVoid]

Around this time the Walker Trust converted existings loans to share capital. The money had already been spent, there was no sudden influx of cash.

Ah right, so the original long term loans were not with 3rd parties anyway.

Ok cheers, it just looked really odd!

[47er]

You've listed 3 things that are down to the manager/being in the relegation zone, and 3 things that are suppositions. What do I need to defend against?

I will only comment after I've thoroughly thought about my stance and taken everything into consideration. I agree where I think someone says something is sensible and I disagree when that something is not. I have been part of the majority and the minority on certain issues, at the end of the day I am confident with my analysis and firmly stand behind it. Whether you want to believe that I'm a contrarian, "the reasonable man", a Venky's employee, Paul Agnew, Paul Hunt, or whoever else is your choice.

I don't believe you actually think that though. You're just trying to rationalise my views because you can't accept them. Interestingly for me, it reveals your rationalising process in general.

What is your stance------in a nutshell please? I must confess that I don't understand it. What I'm saying above, which you quote is what Venkys are responsible for. Where do you differ and why?

For example,you are apparently saying that when I write that the owners can't/won't put money into the club, that is mere supposition on my part? You can't be serious!! That is mere sophistry as someone else wrote. Argument for argument's sake.

Do you think there is any doubt about it?

[47er]

What is your stance------in a nutshell please? I must confess that I don't understand it. What I'm saying above, which you quote is what Venkys are responsible for. Where do you differ and why?

For example, when I write that the owners can't/won't put money into the club--------your view is that that is mere supposition on my part? Are you serious?

[den]

From what I can work out 47er, Miker seems to think there is no problem with the finances and thinks some of the posters on here should be ashamed of themselves for making unfounded allegations against the owners. I guess he thinks that beneath all this, there is no problem.

The real truth is that I don't know what he's trying to say. To me, this is one almighty mess that's not even started on the real downward spiral yet. I can only see things getting a whole lot worse.

[bob fleming]

Talk of club folding at this stage are a bit premature,

We have mortgages against our debts, but out assets far outweigh the debt, what is in danger is our future credit line, So things are bad, but not at the point of administration.

Wages to be paid in the future are exactly that, in the future, they have not been earnt yet.

We have more Sky money due for this season, whilst we have payments also due for transfer like Jones etc, although we also have money to pay out for players we have bought on the drip I.E Dann,

What is under threat is the clubs credit, and if we lose that, we need to find someone who will give us credit, after of course Barclays have claimed back their dough, or the family need to put cash in.

What news of today's deadline for the 10m repayment to Barclays? Have you heard anything, Glen? Or Kamy?

[Mattyblue]

Allardyce sacking- Venky's fault

Kean being appointed- same

JW leaving- same

Kean being kept on- same

A negative net spend on transfers- same

No sponsor-same

impending relegation- same

possible sale of top players- if it happens, same.

Now all those (apart from sales of our players) are already facts, not speculation, not smears.

Not a clue what Miker is trying to say.

[thenodrog]

People have said that the Rao family have not spent money on the club, yet they paid the 43 million dollars to own it, they put in 10 million dollars as the accounts show and they are spending money on new infrastructure at the club, and on building the Rovers brand in India. As the accounts show, they’re also not making money off selling players (or “asset stripping”) as many had accused them of doing in the Summer.

imo

YET....

imo

Plan A (completed) was to persuade the V's of a marketing plan to promote their chicken brand via the 'BRFC can be the Arsenal of the North' vision that has been instilled in them by the Dastardly and Muttley to sell the concept. "5m pa should do it Mrs D .... but we need to get rid of the management structure thats been holding them back and bring in a more forward thinking manager, a manager who must be given overall control to move this forward."

Plan B (completed) was to remove all doubts.... "Whatever happens you cannot lose your investment" and act upon that when all else has failed.

Plan C (continuing) is to fill a couple of accounts in some Swiss bank with as much lucre as possible through skimmings from player trading whilst the going is so good.

=======================================================================================================

-Their “mismanagement” of the football club comes from their decisions to sack Sam, appoint Kean and continue to back him. For what reason I do not know. All I know is that they have taken a liking to him, especially Mrs D, and believe in him and perhaps the constant abuse thrown at him has strengthened their resolve in backing him. The thing is, and I’ve pointed this out numerous times, you have half the fans criticising them for sacking Sam, but then the other half wanted him gone. In fact, back in Sam’s only full season in charge, a vast majority of people on here were in an outrage and calling for his head.

"Vast majority"? I know what you are saying but every poll taken at the time disproves your opinion. What unfortunately was the problem for Allardyce was that the concentration of the 'Sam out' brigade were centred around our 'noisy neighbours' on the Blackburn End. They have been 'used' big time. They won't for one minute accept any blame cos it's not in their nature but they have passed blame for our situation on to anybody who is up there to be shot at from Kean to Agnew to Slumdogs to Walker Trust. The real villain 'Dick Dastardly' appears to have a teflon coating.

No matter the why's and wherefore's however cos at the end of the day the name over the shop door is that of Venkeys. Everything that has happened could have been stopped by them. imo They have been duped as much as the rest of us by their own ignorance and massive planned and co ordinated deception by peripheral figures lurking in the shadows. Problem is miker that BRFC is not wire in the blood to the Venkeys. The venkeys have an exit route........ we don't!

[den]

Oh, and my reading of the finances after reading Andy Cryer's report this morning, is that at a time of us needing to bring in added quality to the squad, because of the wages to income ratio and the Raos not being prepared to put in any of their promised cash, we will actually be taking quality out of the squad.

[Paul]

Oh, and my reading of the finances after reading Andy Cryer's report this morning, is that at a time of us needing to bring in added quality to the squad, because of the wages to income ratio and the Raos not being prepared to put in any of their promised cash, we will actually be taking quality out of the squad.

Anyone who has seen the 2010/11 accounts knows this is an absolute certainty. Just the figures in the LT demonstrate the problems. From Miker's remarks I think he has seen those figures which makes his defence of the Rao family even more bizarre.

When the Rovers are relegated the outcome is anyone's guess.

[Uddersfelt Blue]

Oh, and my reading of the finances after reading Andy Cryer's report this morning, is that at a time of us needing to bring in added quality to the squad, because of the wages to income ratio and the Raos not being prepared to put in any of their promised cash, we will actually be taking quality out of the squad.

My understanding is that we do not have to sell if we don't buy anyone.

If we do want to buy then I guess Hoilett will be the one to finance any purchases at say £10m (if we can get a few clubs in an auction).

Whether we weaken the squad or not will depend on who we buy but it's crucial that we get at least a couple of experienced Premier League players who are up for a relegation scrap.

I do however believe that if Venkys have decided not to invest any more money then it makes relegation a near certainty due to the injury situation.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Lets just cut to the chase eh folks....we're fooked!!

[47er]

Allardyce sacking- Venky's fault

Kean being appointed- same

JW leaving- same

Kean being kept on- same

A negative net spend on transfers- same

No sponsor-same

impending relegation- same

possible sale of top players- if it happens, same.

Now all those (apart from sales of our players) are already facts, not speculation, not smears.

Not a clue what Miker is trying to say.

Thank you Matty and Den--------I thought it was me!