[Archived] Our Debt

[bob fleming]

I made a post on the JA thread which is pending approval in regards to this. I would suggest no need to panic, but don't expect to have all your dreams and wishes come true.

There is stuff I haven't commented on mainly because I am waiting for a response from Nick Harris on the matter.

In simple terms, my reading of the situation is that Venky's want to run us as a trading club. I imagine managers like Hughes and MON want to be at clubs that will allow them to buy without having to sell, I don't think Venky's can offer them that. At most they are willing to offer a limited budget to spend without selling.

From the accounts, there are a couple of indications that Venky's will cover operational loss with their own money. I assume that, if not relegated, they will eventually try and decrease the loss through increasing commercial income in some way ie. developing fanbase and presence in Asia. This will mean they won't have to plug the gap with their own funds and either let the club remain a self sufficient trading club or use their funds for further boosting the club.

Mike - any thoughts on the £10m that apparently hasn't been paid back yet to Barclays?

Also - "if not relegated" - that's a big if to say the least.

Commercial income in India is proving to be something of a joke isn't it 13 months in? Have we had a penny from India in any shape or form? These are the people who couldn't even attract a sponsor for this season while overseeing a huge increase in debt at the club.

"Developing the fanbase" - through shirt sales? Season tickets? How's this going to work?! I know, we could ask the Venky's! (no laughing at this point)

My dreams and wishes would come true if they sack the manager and sell up. Anything else in the interim with the alleged VAK set up just stinks I'm afraid.

[Miker]

Think you will be disappointed I speak to Nick quite regurlar on the phone, and the picture which was painted to him a year ago, was sadly waffle, his opinion is much different, based on facts and info he gets

Spoken to him as well and don't think I will be. Since I've spoken to him he's softened his stance on the financial situation at Rovers and our opinions do not differ that much on what is happening. Where we diverge is in whether or not there is indication Venky's will provide the funds or not. Also while there is stuff he certainly does know and is aware of, there are other parts that he is also not sure about and has to guess at.

Also he does not believe that what they told them about their other businesses is waffle, but they told him they would spend whatever is needed on Rovers and in his view this hasn't come true, which I will agree with him on.

We will see what happens by the end of January, as that will tell us for sure what they're intentions are, as Kamy has said.

[BuckyRover]

Spoken to him as well and don't think I will be. Since I've spoken to him he's softened his stance on the financial situation at Rovers and our opinions do not differ that much on what is happening. Where we diverge is in whether or not there is indication Venky's will provide the funds or not. Also while there is stuff he certainly does know and is aware of, there are other parts that he is also not sure about and has to guess at.

Also he does not believe that what they told them about their other businesses is waffle, but they told him they would spend whatever is needed on Rovers and in his view this hasn't come true, which I will agree with him on.

We will see what happens by the end of January, as that will tell us for sure what they're intentions are, as Kamy has said.

I disagree. The best thing to do throughout January is to assume everything is completely screwed and the reason for this is Venky's (obviously). Then if they do something (anything?) in the meantime we can then reassess the situation.

They have been given time but unfortunately there is no longer any left.

[thenodrog]

Den

I think if this news was fact that it would be circulating amongst the newswires by now. If it was exactly true it would have been leaked by the bank calling the debt to ensure maximum coverage and further to that, the Premier League would be on the case immediately and they always go to the media.

There is clearly something going to blow and I am just wondering how loud the bang will be.

Barclays bank bankrupting a club that plays in the Barclays Premier League is a rather difficult PR problem for them. As I said yesterday someone at Barclays will be sweating very uncomfortably at his desk.

[BuckyRover]

Banks don't bankrupt football clubs, owners do.

We appear to be at a point where a number of clubs can't afford to be in the Premiership (increasing debt to maintain status quo) but can't afford to get relegated either.

[thenodrog]

kamy do you beleive samba will be sold below venkys valuation to help pay of the debt in this window?

glen do you think they will sell the likes of samba and other valuable players in this window?

Fiddling whilst Rome burns mate. You really should try and work it out for yourself.

[philipl]

Primarily the information came from reliable and respected sources on this MB. I don't recall seeing anything in the media.

Andy Cryer and Alan Nixon carried the Qatar story.

I am sorry to say that Miker's analysis on this thread is as close to the reality of the situation as saying that Myles Anderson is a Premier League footballer.

Both are factual strictly speaking and both completely miss the obvious.

[Miker]

Mike - any thoughts on the £10m that apparently hasn't been paid back yet to Barclays?

Also - "if not relegated" - that's a big if to say the least.

Commercial income in India is proving to be something of a joke isn't it 13 months in? Have we had a penny from India in any shape or form? These are the people who couldn't even attract a sponsor for this season while overseeing a huge increase in debt at the club.

"Developing the fanbase" - through shirt sales? Season tickets? How's this going to work?! I know, we could ask the Venky's! (no laughing at this point)

My dreams and wishes would come true if they sack the manager and sell up. Anything else in the interim with the alleged VAK set up just stinks I'm afraid.

Re: 10m to Barclays. I will give you my comments on that, but I cannot speak with authority on the subject as I don't have enough evidence one way or the other. In the "analysis of net debt" section in the accounts, there is a row titled "Debt due after 1 year". Under cash flow there is an amount of 10m that is to come in to cover the debt. On my first few readings of the account, I didn't even notice this and when I did I assumed it was the 10m conversion of debt into capital mentioned on a different page of the accounts. However, looking at this now, the fact that it is under "debt due after 1 year" is significant, in my opinion, and I would ask what this is an indication of. Secondly, the current debt amount doesn't taken into account the money we have received on the post balance sheet events, following Summer transfers.

I also know that some money may have been paid to the bank.

In terms of loans/debts and paying them off, the accounts show that around 7.5m was paid off and then a new loan of 15m was taken out. Obviously this is an increased debt, but at the same time it shows that the amounts that were due to be paid WERE paid, so from that we have evidence that the owners have paid back the amounts owing to the bank before. This could be an indication that they will do so again in 2011/2012, or it could mean nothing, but I'm not convinced one way or the other. This is the difficulty of analysing the club's financial dealings from only a 12 month period.

In terms of increasing commercial income through marketing in Asia, I am obviously talking about this as something that would have to be done long-term over the next couple of years. Not within the first few years of their ownership. The reason we're not seeing much of this happening in India right now is due to our position. You're not really going to successfully market a team that's last in the Premier League, neither will you be able to market a team that's not even in it, given they don't show the Championship on TV in India or in Asia.

This is something that the owners would be fully aware of and so I would assume that they would see the need to invest in the playing squad and a new manager, even if their long-term vision may be to have Rovers operating as a trading club. So far this investment hasn't happened this window. If it doesn't happen then I am appealing like the rest of you for Venky's to tell us what exactly their plan is, as we are not going to get out of this without significant investment.

Sack Kean - yes. Sell up - yes, on the provision that new owners can fund us appropriately. We are not an attractive enough prospect as a lot of clubs due to our low turnover. Our matchday income is probably at 5m right now. That is probably the lowest of any club in the Premier League. Our commercial income is nothing to write home about either. From what I personally know of the owners, I want them to stay and make the right moves, including new manager and sufficient investment. That's all I really want at this point, as it could save us from relegation and push us on long-term.

[philipl]

Re: 10m to Barclays. I will give you my comments on that, but I cannot speak with authority on the subject as I don't have enough evidence one way or the other. In the "analysis of net debt" section in the accounts, there is a row titled "Debt due after 1 year". Under cash flow there is an amount of 10m that is to come in to cover the debt. On my first few readings of the account, I didn't even notice this and when I did I assumed it was the 10m conversion of debt into capital mentioned on a different page of the accounts. However, looking at this now, the fact that it is under "debt due after 1 year" is significant, in my opinion, and I would ask what this is an indication of. Secondly, the current debt amount doesn't taken into account the money we have received on the post balance sheet events, following Summer transfers.

I also know that some money may have been paid to the bank.

In terms of loans/debts and paying them off, the accounts show that around 7.5m was paid off and then a new loan of 15m was taken out. Obviously this is an increased debt, but at the same time it shows that the amounts that were due to be paid WERE paid, so from that we have evidence that the owners have paid back the amounts owing to the bank before. This could be an indication that they will do so again in 2011/2012, or it could mean nothing, but I'm not convinced one way or the other. This is the difficulty of analysing the club's financial dealings from only a 12 month period.

In terms of increasing commercial income through marketing in Asia, I am obviously talking about this as something that would have to be done long-term over the next couple of years. Not within the first few years of their ownership. The reason we're not seeing much of this happening in India right now is due to our position. You're not really going to successfully market a team that's last in the Premier League, neither will you be able to market a team that's not even in it, given they don't show the Championship on TV in India or in Asia.

This is something that the owners would be fully aware of and so I would assume that they would see the need to invest in the playing squad and a new manager, even if their long-term vision may be to have Rovers operating as a trading club. So far this investment hasn't happened this window. If it doesn't happen then I am appealing like the rest of you for Venky's to tell us what exactly their plan is, as we are not going to get out of this without significant investment.

Sack Kean - yes. Sell up - yes, on the provision that new owners can fund us appropriately. We are not an attractive enough prospect as a lot of clubs due to our low turnover. Our matchday income is probably at 5m right now. That is probably the lowest of any club in the Premier League. Our commercial income is nothing to write home about either. From what I personally know of the owners, I want them to stay and make the right moves, including new manager and sufficient investment. That's all I really want at this point, as it could save us from relegation and push us on long-term.

What do you personally know of the owners?

[krypton1980]

In terms of loans/debts and paying them off, the accounts show that around 7.5m was paid off and then a new loan of 15m was taken out. Obviously this is an increased debt, but at the same time it shows that the amounts that were due to be paid WERE paid, so from that we have evidence that the owners have paid back the amounts owing to the bank before. This could be an indication that they will do so again in 2011/2012, or it could mean nothing, but I'm not convinced one way or the other. This is the difficulty of analysing the club's financial dealings from only a 12 month period.

Surely this just means that a new larger loan was taken out which repayed the existing debt of 7.5m?

I`m no accountant but if you take out a loan and wish to increase the size of that loan (i.e. borrow more money) you dont just increase your existing debt, you have to borrow enough to cover the oustanding amount owed on the existing loan and the extra amount you want. You then pay off the existing loan using the new larger loan.

Which in effect means that the owners did not pay back what they owed they just borrowed more.

[philipl]

Surely this just means that a new larger loan was taken out which repayed the existing debt of 7.5m?

I`m no accountant but if you take out a loan and wish to increase the size of that loan (i.e. borrow more money) you dont just increase your existing debt, you have to borrow enough to cover the oustanding amount owed on the existing loan and the extra amount you want. You then pay off the existing loan using the new larger loan.

Which in effect means that the owners did not pay back what they owed they just borrowed more.

Exactly

[Miker]

I disagree. The best thing to do throughout January is to assume everything is completely screwed and the reason for this is Venky's (obviously). Then if they do something (anything?) in the meantime we can then reassess the situation.

They have been given time but unfortunately there is no longer any left.

Well you're free to do that, from my perspective whether I worry now or later doesn't change anything. All it changes is whether I stress now or later, and if they do do something then maybe I don't need to stress at all. If there's something that could be done, I would do it (and I have tried) but at the end of the day, either they sort it out or they don't. All I can do is get behind the team and say a massive (Please don't use that word again) you to everyone failing at their jobs behind the scenes. (Please don't use that word again) the ###### manager, (Please don't use that word again) the lack of new players, (Please don't use that word again) the injuries... we are Rovers and we will go out there and beat teams despite all of this. We don't need Beckham or Ronaldinho, we'll do with Henley and Morris and kick ass regardless. I was filled with pride, like I'm sure most Rovers fans did that day, that our injury-ravaged team of youngsters were able to beat "the Champions" at Old Trafford and I want our sole focus to be on maintaining that.

What do you personally know of the owners?

They have good intentions, they have been successful with their businesses and they are good people. I know enough to trust them to do the right thing, but I don't know enough to know what their next move will be. What is obvious is they are struggling, badly.

[Miker]

Surely this just means that a new larger loan was taken out which repayed the existing debt of 7.5m?

I`m no accountant but if you take out a loan and wish to increase the size of that loan (i.e. borrow more money) you dont just increase your existing debt, you have to borrow enough to cover the oustanding amount owed on the existing loan and the extra amount you want. You then pay off the existing loan using the new larger loan.

Which in effect means that the owners did not pay back what they owed they just borrowed more.

You are probably right with that, I only mentioned this because the payment of the 7.5 loan and the withdrawal of the new 15m loan were seperate entries on the balance sheet. It doesn't specify how the 7.5m loan was paid off, nor what the 15m loan is secured against (although I'd assume Sky money?)

I don't have the docs in front of me right now, but from memory that 7.5m was "due within 1 year" on 2009/2010 accounts. Whereas this new 15m loan isn't "due within 1 year", but broken down for a number of years. Feel free to correct me on that.

[jim mk2]

They have good intentions, they have been successful with their businesses and they are good people. I know enough to trust them to do the right thing, but I don't know enough to know what their next move will be. What is obvious is they are struggling, badly.

So to answer Philip's question, you don't know anything about them and are making it up as you go along.

Why ?

[Miker]

So to answer Philip's question, you don't know anything about them and are making it up as you go along.

Why ?

Where have I said that? I said what I PERSONALLY know of THEM. I obviously don't sit in the board room with them or discuss matters with them at the club over a cup of tea.

[thenodrog]

They have good intentions, they have been successful with their businesses and they are good people. I know enough to trust them to do the right thing, but I don't know enough to know what their next move will be. What is obvious is they are struggling, badly.

Venkeys?

I think I've pointed out before that 'fools and their money are soon parted'. Also the old adage 'clogs to clogs in three generations' is applicable.

Foolish? Possibly. Naive? Probably . Base Liars? Definitely. But not necessarily evil. I reserve that description for the intentions and actions of Dastardly and Muttley. Unfortunately the Venkeymob are responsible that is an irrefutable fact. Through necessity they may be forced to embark on a salvage job.... and that's where they might easily turn evil.

[jim mk2]

Where have I said that? I said what I PERSONALLY know of THEM. I obviously don't sit in the board room with them or discuss matters with them at the club over a cup of tea.

Only a few people have met them and I'd wager you aren't one of them so how do you know them "personally" ?

And as you don't know them "personally" how can you say they have "good intentions" and are "good people", and can you trust them to "do the right thing" ??

You're talking tosh.

[thenodrog]

Where have I said that? I said what I PERSONALLY know of THEM. I obviously don't sit in the board room with them or discuss matters with them at the club over a cup of tea.

That doesn't suprise me miker and I know it's only an expression but I may be wrong but until quite recently I was led to believe that there hadn't been a board meeting at Ewood since the takeover.

[Miker]

Venkeys?

I think I've pointed out before that 'fools and their money are soon parted'. Also the old adage 'clogs to clogs in three generations' is applicable.

Foolish? Probably. Naive? Definitely. But not necessarily evil. I reserve that description for the intentions and actions of Dastardly and Muttley. Unfortunately the Venkeymob are responsible that is an irrefutable fact. Through necessity they may be forced to embark on a salvage job.... and that's where they might easily turn evil.

Agree with you theno, although I am not convinced they will embark on a "salvage job". I think it's fair to say though that they would want to avoid that situation regardless.

[thenodrog]

Well then they'd better get their cheque books out. It doesn't sound like Barclays are listening to traditional Indian attempts at flanneling.

Plan B can simply to put us on ebay.

[Miker]

Only a few people have met them and I'd wager you aren't one of them so how do you know them "personally" ?

And as you don't know them "personally" how can you say they have "good intentions" and are "good people", and can you trust them to "do the right thing" ??

You're talking tosh.

There are only a few people that have met them? I am pretty sure that there have been many, many people that have met them and know them personally. As it happens I have spoken with those people, not random passers by, but people I know and trust personally. They spoke highly of the Raos and that was good enough for me. They did not speak to me about their dealings with Rovers because they don't know them on that level, but simply on a personal level.

This is why I am saying that from what I know, I have nothing personal against them, and if they made the right moves I would be quite happy to have them as owners. However, while they haven't it's irrelevant. I am therefore less worried than most, but at the same time getting a bit restless as the silence and lack of action continues.

Is that acceptable for you Jim?

[purplegrover]

Plan B can simply to put us on ebay.

And if you click "Buy Now", it may even come with free postage !

[Veevs]

There are only a few people that have met them? I am pretty sure that there have been many, many people that have met them and know them personally. As it happens I have spoken with those people, not random passers by, but people I know and trust personally. They spoke highly of the Raos and that was good enough for me. They did not speak to me about their dealings with Rovers because they don't know them on that level, but simply on a personal level.

This is why I am saying that from what I know, I have nothing personal against them, and if they made the right moves I would be quite happy to have them as owners. However, while they haven't it's irrelevant. I am therefore less worried than most, but at the same time getting a bit restless as the silence and lack of action continues.

Is that acceptable for you Jim?

Many of us here go by what they have done so far.. the biggest for me was the set of promises and reasurances they gave in the sales document prior to purchasing the club.

Anyone can act nice and do evil, I know many people who are nice people but I would not trust them with my money. When they took over they stated very clearly a list of assurances which they simply ripped up on day one and within weeks broke the first promise they made when they bought the club.

If someone made you a promise to do x, then went away and broke (in fact did the exact opposite to what they promised) that promise within weeks without a good reason would you ever trust them again?

Another key factor for me is why have they HAD to BUY the silence of the former employees, if you have done nothing wrong you do not need to purchase the silence of the staff you are letting go.

[Paul]

From what I personally know of the owners, I want them to stay and make the right moves, including new manager and sufficient investment. That's all I really want at this point, as it could save us from relegation and push us on long-term.

Miker I've carefully read everything you have posted in the last hours and have to disagree with you completely. I'm afraid I don't have time to debate each point but would say this. From the above can I suggest from Saturday we have to embark on a winning run equal to European qualification over a full season to avoid relegation. We will not be saved. Can you please point to the indicators which suggest otherwise?

I've heard many times the Raos are good people. I can't dispute this and have never attempted to. The issue is not their personalities, charitable works, etc. but their ability to run a successful football club. Can you please outline the areas of success?

I feel you need to understand the reality for people sat in Blackburn is their club is collapsing in front of their eyes. The situation is so desperate people are preparing to stand outside on the pavement for 24 hours in protest. Please don't under estimate what is happening here in LANCASHIRE not frigging in Pune. Frankly I couldn't give a sh!t how "good" these people are as it's pretty clear most of this "goodness" has no relevance to Bkackburn.

Andy Cryer and Alan Nixon carried the Qatar story.

Yes I knew but had forgotten that. Apologies.

[Majiball]

They have good intentions, they have been successful with their businesses and they are good people. I know enough to trust them to do the right thing, but I don't know enough to know what their next move will be. What is obvious is they are struggling, badly.

Do the right thing? Are you having a giraffe?

Almost 18 months they have been our overlords and not once have they done the right thing and yet you believe they will? If I told you the moon was made of cheese would you believe me?