[Archived] Our Debt

[thenodrog]

I'm very interested to know the breakdown of the apparent £4.5 agents fees. I assume these will have to be published somewhere?

You might find out who was paid and what but I doubt you'll find out who was on a cut of that.

[Hughesy]

Anyone want to email me a copy? Drop me a pm and il send you my email address

[John]

Venky's promise significant investment even if club is relegated

[JWUpper]

Venky's promise significant investment even if club is relegated

It says something along the lines of 'Venkys could earn 16 million with the sale of hoilett samba but would face the justifiable wrath of the supporters'

...up to this point what indication have venkys given they care about the fans? Bye bye samba and hoilett, hello not having to put any of their personal 'wealth' into the club!

[footypix]

Can anyone honestly answer the following question?

Has BRFC got along term future or do we face the nightmare of the club not being in a position to start a new season in August?

I know this is the nightmare situation for all of us, but I honestly can't see a future, unless the club is sold before the end of the season.

The media and other so called experts, tweeters etc.... need to be told that our biggest nightmare is coming true.

We(the fans)need to get the message across that we are actually protesting about Venky's killing our club

Blackburn Rovers face (the very real) prospect of being the first Premier League club to go out of business. This is what we (as fan's) need to get across, as we are at the moment, just being crucified by the media as bitter and twisted.

The mainstream Press (with the odd exception)need be told that the very existence of the club is at stake.

Kean's position is in all reality, not the issue, Venky's ownership and mis-management is the ONLY issue.

[Tom]

Anyone want to email me a copy? Drop me a pm and il send you my email address

See Glenn's post on the last page, that would be breaking the embargo which I doubt anyone wants to do.

Please no more requests on here

[philipl]

One of the Venkys mentioned on a sky article last week that we were now debt free.....so not sure.

Time will tell - we should hopefully be abit clearer on our future by 11pm.

It is safe to say that the Venky who said was deluded.

[bob fleming]

Venky's promise significant investment even if club is relegated

Good old Nixon. True to form. Still, it pays well.

[roverandout]

so basically rovers have to sell samba and hoillet in january to reduce the debt?

[Paul]

Venky's promise significant investment even if club is relegated

The headline doesn't match the content of the news item at all. Presumably different people write the headlines?

As I read this the message is clear, the Raos have no money (nothing new there), having already screwed every penny out of the club's existing finances they are now looking at other possibilities.

To suggest the Raos are promising "significant investment" and will support Rovers after relegation is, on the basis of this article which provides no evidence, contrary to everything we know about the owners. There has been no investment to date and there is nothing to suggest the Raos will spend their money in the future.

Can anyone honestly answer the following question?

Has BRFC got along term future or do we face the nightmare of the club not being in a position to start a new season in August?

I know this is the nightmare situation for all of us, but I honestly can't see a future, unless the club is sold before the end of the season.

The media and other so called experts, tweeters etc.... need to be told that our biggest nightmare is coming true.

We(the fans)need to get the message across that we are actually protesting about Venky's killing our club

Blackburn Rovers face (the very real) prospect of being the first Premier League club to go out of business. This is what we (as fan's) need to get across, as we are at the moment, just being crucified by the media as bitter and twisted.

The mainstream Press (with the odd exception)need be told that the very existence of the club is at stake.

Kean's position is in all reality, not the issue, Venky's ownership and mis-management is the ONLY issue.

You are absolutely right with this. I've been saying for some weeks the fear must now be the the Raos will close the club and walk away in the summer. Trouble is its taken months for the support to realise what is happening getting this message across will be very difficult.

I won't be in anyway surprised if the club disappears next summer.

[Stuart]

Paul, when you type things like that, I worry.

What I really can't understand is their ability, face to face with Rovers fans in Pune, to appear so genuine and caring about the club's best interests. Yet, NOT ONE of the footballing decisions since that day have backed that up.

Do we know where the borrowed money has gone? Just seems so easy to borrow money and use income to pay off debts. Is that what will become of the parachute payments?

[imy9]

One simple question that I would like to ask The Raos:

Have you invested a single penny into Rovers? Looking at the account details with my untrained eyes it seems like the club has taken on board all the costs of transfers, wages etc.

If I was Barclays I would demand the 10 million investment as The Raos on current form are simply going to rack up more debt onto the club.

To The Trust, look at what you have done to us.

[Stuart]

From what I've read, the £10m was supposed to be cash injections in transfer windows (£5m Jan '11 and £5m Summer '11), presumably to be used for transfers thus demonstrating to the bank that they will protect the investment. (A similar principal mortgage money being held back until retention work is complete).

However, is it likely that this £10m will be taken by the bank to reduce the debt? And is anothe £5m required next month?

I am VERY worried about the link with the Middle East money being borrowed to pay debts. We can only hope and pray that they are actually following up interest with a potential buyer or partner to join in the whole project - including the "India's Football team" idea. Or is that all lies and spin?

On that note: Did they actually buy Gary Neville's house, btw? Or pay for additional fans' Pune trips? Do we know if it was Venkys or 'the club' that picked up the tab for the Pune 11? Have they followed through on any of their proposals which involve them SPENDING VENKYS' MONEY??

[MarkBRFC]

[quote name='Paul'

You are absolutely right with this. I've been saying for some weeks the fear must now be the the Raos will close the club and walk away in the summer. Trouble is its taken months for the support to realise what is happening getting this message across will be very difficult.

I won't be in anyway surprised if the club disappears next summer.

surely they wont be allowed to just close the club? Wouldnt the fa step in or something?

[Miker]

Can someone send me the accounts? I don't want to wait until the 29th...

If you send them to me, I won't discuss them in public until then if required.

[Stuart]

surely they wont be allowed to just close the club? Wouldnt the fa step in or something?

We'd be at the mercy of the auditors. Knowing our luck we'll probably end up with a Burnley fan in charge - which would be a step up from Venkys.

We aren't a national institution like a Liverpool or ManU so there would be a (small) local outcry and Ewood would be sold to property developers.

Can someone send me the accounts? I don't want to wait until the 29th...

If you send them to me, I won't discuss them in public until then if required.

Given we've be told, twice, not to ask for them, you might want to be a little more discrete!

[Glenn]

To be fair, I've now been offered the accounts from so many sources, I imagine people on here will all know somebody they can ask (in private, away from BRFCS please). It seems they may have been sent to every EX shareholder.

But given 2011 has been about trying to keep BRFCS out of court, I want to stress, don't ask for them or distribute them via BRFCS.

[Miker]

Given we've be told, twice, not to ask for them, you might want to be a little more discrete!

First of all, (Please don't use that word again) bureaucracy.

Second of all, isn't this public information that by law should be available to the public due to the freedom of information act? I don't see anywhere where it's specified that it is illegal to share information from Companies House, and if they are making it "illegal" then it's only to force people to pay them one pound to get access because they can, in which case, (Please don't use that word again) them.

[Paul]

First of all, (Please don't use that word again) bureaucracy.

Second of all, isn't this public information that by law should be available to the public due to the freedom of information act? I don't see anywhere where it's specified that it is illegal to share information from Companies House, and if they are making it "illegal" then it's only to force people to pay them one pound to get access because they can, in which case, (Please don't use that word again) them.

I haven't seen the accounts just what was in the LT. we are told they are embargoed until 29 December when, I presume, they will be filed at Companies House which is the point at which the unformation enters the public domain prior to that the info remains private.

[Glenn]

First of all, (Please don't use that word again) bureaucracy.

Second of all, isn't this public information that by law should be available to the public due to the freedom of information act? I don't see anywhere where it's specified that it is illegal to share information from Companies House, and if they are making it "illegal" then it's only to force people to pay them one pound to get access because they can, in which case, (Please don't use that word again) them.

Sorry Miker, but we've had a steady stream of letters from solicitors hit my doormat this year (it's my house that's the registered address for BRFCS Ltd), some more worrying than others and I'm not going to invite any more. If it was just the person distributing them that was at risk, I'd agree, but it's not, but it's also the site and the people stupid enough to be directors of the site. So I'm trying to be whiter than white, there are people out there who seem to be looking for the slightest slip up to bring us down and in the same way Capone was taken down for tax evasion, I don't want BRFCS in court of something that will be available for just £1 (not technically freely) in a few weeks/months

Anyone reading this forum must surely be aware of any number of people that are likely to have them by now and how to contact them away from the forum (BTW Ste and I *don't* have them for very obvious reasons).

Sorry if this seems over cautious and anal (I'd agree it is), but we've learnt the hard way that it's the only sensible way to do things from now on.

[Paul]

surely they wont be allowed to just close the club? Wouldnt the fa step in or something?

Why not? They own it. I like cycling and belong to a club. If I sold my bikes I couldn't participate.........but no one can stop me.

[Mercer]

For anyone interested, seems like Nicko will answer any questions on Twitter @reluctantnicko - plenty on there already!

[Paul]

Paul, when you type things like that, I worry.

I write it for two reasons, firstly I believe it to be a real possibility and secondly I want people to think. I mean no insult when I say this but football fans are herd animals, when all is well everyone follows the leader and dives into discussion as to who we can buy, how it will bring income to the club, sell shirts, dominate the Asian market, sell parking space at £10 a throw,etc. Then things move in the wrong direction it takes a while but we build up a head of steam, which blew against Bolton, to sack the manager.

A few, very few, said from the beginning this takeover was wrong. For me this was based on 20 odd years of oppostion to TV money and more recently the subsequent influx of foreign owners. Others had different reasons for concern. Those of us who voiced our concerns were subjected to all sorts of abuse and ridicule, some far worse than others. It's my belief those opposed to the takeover wanted nothing more than to stimulate others into thinking about the situation, avoiding the herd instinct and the belief all was rosy in our garden.

We are, IMO, moving to the same thing again. The time has come to direct everything at the Raos because there is a very serious risk they will close the club down. I believe people should consider this very, very seriously - the evidence is staring us in the face.

Lets look at this in a hard faced, business-like manner:

Raos paid £23m + £20m debt for the club

Running total £43m

Rovers lost £18.6m to June 2010

Running total £41.6m

Projected loss June 2011 under PL conditions - my guess £25m

Running total £66.6m

IF relegated cost of maintaining PL squad in championship to gain promotion - £30m

TOTAL £96.m

Balaji once owned a Bollywood film company which bled money - it clsoed

Folk can argue all they wish about the odd million pounds, parachute payments etc BUT the scary truth is our income from every possible source is declining while our costs are massively escalating WHEN we are relegated this process will accelerate dramatically.

If my guesstimates are correct buying Rovers will cost the Raos £95-100m in 30 months. I doubt they have that money and if in their position I would close it down, liquidate the assets (not go into liquidation or administration which are different approaches), sell everything possible and get out.

There is no such thing as profit or investment in football. If you are a business person you minimise the losses. The whole project is already an unmitigated, unrecoverable disaster. Why would they hang around? Sadly there is no reason to stay.

I'd just ask people to think about it, I don't profess to have insight or to be clever, it's just my view.

What I really can't understand is their ability, face to face with Rovers fans in Pune, to appear so genuine and caring about the club's best interests. Yet, NOT ONE of the footballing decisions since that day have backed that up.

I know the majority of people who have met the Raos, roversmum and her husband were especially convinced and strong in their support. I know both of them and believe them to be absolutely sincere people and it still gives me a real problem to resolve that roversmum and dad are / were so convinced of the Raos genuine, real interest in the club. Ultimately I have concluded none of us like to be unpleasant when we meet and talk with people. I think this is especially true of the Indian culture and so it is no surprise the Raos will be very convincing, pleasant and sincere in face to face discussion, and then do exactly as they wish later, even if this is the direct opposite of what has been said in conversation.

Do we know where the borrowed money has gone? Just seems so easy to borrow money and use income to pay off debts. Is that what will become of the parachute payments?

Philip will glean a lot from the accounts but players wages, staff payoffs, agents fees would appear the most likely. There are other possibilities but I can't back those up. The parachute payments are interesting, I don't know the rules surrounding those and how or when they are paid. Some insight on this would be very valuable.

[bestierover]

With respect Paul, that analysis is far too simplistic and ignores many variables and alternatives. It, in fact, borders upon becoming an incitement. Whilst I agree that there is concern to be had in many respects, and questions to be answered, matters cannot be so straightforward.

[stuwilky]

Parachute Payments are often quoted as being £16m in the first two seasons and then £8m in the third and fourth seasons. It is slightly more complex than this.

The payments are a percentage of the merit award. For clubs in the premier league season there is a merit award, this basically works that the club in 20th receives 1 share, 19th 2 shares, 18th 3 shares etc, and top get 20 shares.

If a club was to go down in 2011/12 they would receive the following

55% of a share in 2012/13

45% of a share in 2013/14

25% of a share in 2014/15

25% of a share in 2015/16

Broadly speaking that is £18m, £16m, £8m, £8m but if prize money increases so will the parachute payments.

The money is paid at the same time as the regular Premier League money which I believe is January and Jul (but stand corrected). Of course if we owe a football creditor this money wont be paid.....