[Archived] Our Debt

[Miker]

From what I understand there were 2 members of this board who were heavily involved with trying to broker the deal and had contact with the Qatar people's respresentatives. The interest was there but no deal was done.

This is largely why I am highly skeptical of anything that is written on this board. The neutrality and credibility of fans is shot when they suddenly acquire vested interests in the demise of the current owners. There was a clear, concentrated attack on the owners leading up to the news of the Qatari "bid". Make of that what you will.

i will welcome them with a pitch fork and a torch, this is what they used to do when they suspected witches, well we have one now owning the club, kean and his fellow sychophants have already mentioned some kind of witch-hunt in the media!!!

The people that suspected witches and burned them were demented and insane. Let's not go down to their level.

[Miker]

I am certinaly no financial guru, but for an operating loss to grow from 1.8million, to 18million after just a few months of Rao ownership is outrageous, is it not?

We made a 10m profit on player sales 2009/2010 season, and made a 5m loss 2010/2011 season (rounding up the figures). So that's where the difference comes in. Unclear what the 5m loss consisted of. We spent less on player transfers than the previous season though, 7m down from 10m.

[John]

Miker, considering they are proven liars, you seem quite defensive of the Rao family, care to explain why? I know directly and indirectly that they are pretty dense when it comes to football.

[DE.]

Was reading the WHU and Stoke threads from last year and Miker certainly does seem to have done a bit of a 180. Would be interested to know what's altered his perception, and ideally where I can get it from.

[Miker]

Miker, considering they are proven liars, you seem quite defensive of the Rao family, care to explain why? I know directly and indirectly that they are pretty dense when it comes to football.

Numerous reasons, and I'll only recount ones that are accessible to a lay observer:

-First of all, the Rao family IS wealthy, they took over their father's business and took it to the next level by raising the turnover to a billion dollars in a few years. Their business owns a massive 85% of the market share of their industry and is of great standing in India and Asia. Studying their business, you can see they have been very ambitious and proactive in achieving their success and the innovation they've promoted within all their business is highly admirable. They clearly now have global ambitions for their brand, of which they see Rovers as playing a big part in and I don't see any evidence for them to either purposely or unintentionally ruin the club, and in turn hinder their global ambitions. My first tip off that people were talking nonsense was with allegations of asset stripping against the Rao family, which would be a completely illogical and disastrous thing to do.

-I have studied media long enough to know that the majority of their statements since taking over the club has just been PR. You talk to the media to tell the fans something they want to hear, you don't talk to the media to tell them exactly what you think. You can't go speak to the media and go into a lecture on how you plan to finance the club, what your short-term and long-term plans are, what your contingency plans are, or your entire thought process in dealing with everything. You just go out and give tidbits to the media to make some sort of statement.

I don’t want to get into their media comments right now, as it would be long and boring and a bit off topic. However, there is a reason why they have gone silent now. I would have as well. The media is just a death trap. There’s no way to make a statement that everyone will be happy with (and they basically tried every way), especially if people just don’t like you.

-Truth, lies and exaggerations have all been blurred together for everyone on the outside looking in. All it takes is for one person with any degree of respect or authority to spread misinformation and a snowball effect occurs. Soon enough you can have five people in a room that don’t know each other confirming each other’s stories that they assume must be established truth, but is actually misinformation from a single source.

-You see journos and other people that are “clued in” trying to piece together the puzzle of our current situation. The truth of the matter is that no one actually knows, and it’s driving those people insane. They have tried to make educated guesses, but have consistently been proven wrong. Their educated guesses have helped spread that misinformation as well because they don’t posit their guesses as guesses, but as statements of fact, and even if they don’t, they are taken as such by the average person.

-The accounts show that the rumours spread earlier in the year about finances have been rubbish, yet people continue to make a big fuss over the amounts. The truth of the accounts is that our operating loss has stayed fairly stagnant compared to previous years and our actual loss was on player transfers. People spread misinformation that we were in debts of 40 or 60 million dollars, maybe even 100 million! We can see that it’s just not true. I was confident in stating that our loss figures would be 20 million for the 2010/2011 season and I am confident in stating that our loss figures will be considerably less and not very significant for the 2011/2012 season (dependent on our transfer dealings in January).

-People have said that the Rao family have not spent money on the club, yet they paid the 43 million dollars to own it, they put in 10 million dollars as the accounts show and they are spending money on new infrastructure at the club, and on building the Rovers brand in India. As the accounts show, they’re also not making money off selling players (or “asset stripping”) as many had accused them of doing in the Summer.

-Their “mismanagement” of the football club comes from their decisions to sack Sam, appoint Kean and continue to back him. For what reason I do not know. All I know is that they have taken a liking to him, especially Mrs D, and believe in him and perhaps the constant abuse thrown at him has strengthened their resolve in backing him. The thing is, and I’ve pointed this out numerous times, you have half the fans criticising them for sacking Sam, but then the other half wanted him gone. In fact, back in Sam’s only full season in charge, a vast majority of people on here were in an outrage and calling for his head. I was one of the few to remain in support of him (based on various reasons) and was right to do so because he took us to 10th in the end. But the whole situation is a madhouse. How can you manage fan expectations and demands? You might say it’s easy, but it’s really not.

-Do they know anything about football? Clearly they don’t, maybe Balaji knows more than the rest, but it’s safe to assume they are novices in the football world. How many owners DO know anything about football? The new Liverpool owners don’t know anything either. They don’t need to know, that’s what your board of directors is for, they handle the football side. Whether the people they hired are experienced or competent enough is a completely different matter though, and one I can’t answer because I don’t know enough about them or how they work.

-When they first took over a lot of people wanted them to come in and pump millions of dollars into the club, some even expected that. I did not want that, nor did I expect it. I do not want our club to be Man City. I wanted and expected modest investment, shrewd business practice and emphasis on youth. I think we’ve got that, or at least not far off. The accounts show we’re operating as before and what we’ve also seen is we’ve sold 2 players and brought in 7, plus 2 loans in the last two windows. They’ve also put in 10m into the club. Compare that to the last few years under the Trust.

-They inherited an ageing squad that largely needs replacing AND bulking up. We mainly have either inexperienced youngsters or players 30+. The only thing that gave me confidence in the squad was Allardyce, but he was obviously sacked. I do have confidence in what I consider our best 11, but remove some of them and we have massive issues, as we’ve seen. To replace and bring in so many players is not an easy task.

-Lastly, I think a LOT of people have severely misjudged the Rao family due to a number of reasons. In the Summer window, so many people claimed that Samba and Hoilett would be sold and no players would be brought in. Yet we retained both players and brought in 5 more (on top of the players acquired in January). Likewise, I think the Rao family misjudged the English media and the Blackburn fans and their actions as a result of that has contributed to their negative public image in England.

My stance has always been and will always remain that we are all part of the same club. The owners, the management team, the players, the fans… we are all in this together. Success and failure affects everyone, the problem has been that a large number of fans now perceive us to have enemies inside the club and have taken it upon themselves to drive them out. Rather than seeing the owners and management team as simple human beings that are managing the club adequately or inadequately, we are portraying them as enemies to be destroyed. What I have been witnessing for the last couple of months, or years even, is a club imploding. Rather than fighting against the teams around us, we are fighting against each other. The situation needs to be cooled down, but I keep seeing the wiser, more respected members of this messageboard heating up the situation instead, and I simply don’t agree.

That was a long one, but that explains my stance. Whether I’m right or wrong is up to you to decide, and ultimately for time to prove.

[Exiled_Rover]

It's not 'PR' it's lying. If you don't plan to back up the statements, don't make them. That's PR 101.

[Miker]

Was reading the WHU and Stoke threads from last year and Miker certainly does seem to have done a bit of a 180. Would be interested to know what's altered his perception, and ideally where I can get it from.

Yep that is correct. I don't know what I said back then, but I'm pretty sure I was scathing of both Kean and Venky's (especially Kean)!

I was listening to all the rumours nodding my head and going "shocking!" "kill them all!" etc.

Then something happened and I realised I was listening to nonsense, I went back through everything that we'd been told, everything that has happened and spoke to various people to get a better idea of what was going on. My 180 was a result of that process.

The logic of what I was being told only made sense if your line of logic included "Venky's act illogically", which just defeats the point of thinking logically...

[47er]

Yep that is correct. I don't know what I said back then, but I'm pretty sure I was scathing of both Kean and Venky's (especially Kean)!

I was listening to all the rumours nodding my head and going "shocking!" "kill them all!" etc.

Then something happened and I realised I was listening to nonsense, I went back through everything that we'd been told, everything that has happened and spoke to various people to get a better idea of what was going on. My 180 was a result of that process.

The logic of what I was being told only made sense if your line of logic included "Venky's act illogically", which just defeats the point of thinking logically...

Yes I can understand your 180 degree shift because its all so much better now isn't?

[Stuart]

Miker, a considered and thought-provoking post. Here are some of the thoughts thoughts you've provoked in me.

PR - they do have a media platform to tell the fans, in detail, what their plans are for the club. It's called the Lancashire Telegraph. They would be only too willing to publish Venkys vision for the club. Certainly ahead of misleading, borderline incompetent tidbits about signing Ronaldinho and the like.

Global ambitions - they have raced ahead with this and taken their eye, literally and metaphorically, off the ball. Why? Because Venkys want global publicity for Brand Venkys not Brand Rovers. If Brand Rovers was important, the would have invested money in the right manager, the right squad and taken action when both have been found to be miserable failures. They have not, and simply continue to fiddle as Rome burns.

"No evidence of them purposefully or unintentionally trying to ruin the club", you say?

I disagree. Their flagrant disregard for the team, and stubbornness to listen to their disenfranchised fans/customers will end in relegation, and large reduction in customer-base, which in itself will ruin the club - as well as having a knock-on effect on the town. How can you not see/feel this? I notice that you frequently provide financial examples in dollars. Are you even from Blackburn? You seem to be cold, objective and dispassionate about our current plight.

"I wanted modest investment, shrewd business practise and emphasis on youth. I think we've got that, or at least not far off"

Modest investment - what evidence is there of any real investment? Any outlay on the club purchase is well on the way to being recouped. It must be extremely modest, have they yet followed through on the modest investment required to keep their word and pay for a couple of return tickets to Pune? Did the trips of the Pune 11 come out of Venkys pockets, or did the club pick up that tab?

Shrewd business practise? I don't believe you really think we've seen that. A shrewd business person would have taken their time to ensure the right infrastructure at the club and would have quickly realised they already had it. It just needed investment. I look at Tony Fernandes as an example of shrewd business practise, certainly not Venkys.

Emphasis on youth? Why? Everyone knows that successful teams have a mixture of youth and experience. We have, and continue to, removed the senior experienced players. Well at least those who, in my view, refuse to toe the line. Anyone who out-ranks Kean seems to be on their way, or 'injured'. It's probably just a coincidence though. What we have left is vast inexperience, and it's costing us. Even I'd you don't subscribe to the idea of lowered fitness levels, lack of concentration and experience to see games out have cost us points. This is down to the manager and his squad policy. Assuming he has one.

You say no evidence (deliberate or unintentional) to ruin the club, yet later you say we are witnessing a club imploding. I sense, possibly unfairly, that you think the fans are the greater cause of this implosion. However, my feeling is that the fans have been driven to this by the action, and inaction, of Venkys and we are well into uncharted territory. At ANY other club in the football league, the manager would have been removed, at least 6 games ago.

Venkys may genuinely want success for the club (that they can then ride on the back of) but I see no evidence that are prepared to take us there.

[Paul]

Miker, considering they are proven liars, you seem quite defensive of the Rao family, care to explain why? I know directly and indirectly that they are pretty dense when it comes to football.

Was reading the WHU and Stoke threads from last year and Miker certainly does seem to have done a bit of a 180. Would be interested to know what's altered his perception, and ideally where I can get it from.

Miker this is very interesting and raises a number of questions and challenges to you. Apologies for not quoting the whole thing, it's length makes it a touch unwieldy to do so. By leaving out sections I'm not attempting to twist your words but concentrate on the pieces I think most relevant or interesting.

Numerous reasons, and I'll only recount ones that are accessible to a lay observer:

Further on in your post you effectively criticise those who are considered "in the know," along with the media for attempting educated guesses based on the information available to them, some of it in the public domain some of it private. Your opening phrase can be interpreted in two ways; either you feel the "lay observer" is unable to comprehend or find (an interpretation of "access") the information, I don't think this is the case OR you are stating you have information which is literally not accessible to the majority. If that is the case if it is in the public domain I'd suggest you should post it here, however if your information is not in the public domain it places your arguement in the same camp, but an opposing view, as those who are anti-Venky's or ITK.

First of all, the Rao family IS wealthy, they took over their father's business and took it to the next level by raising the turnover to a billion dollars in a few years.

First your statements are all in dollars. Is the US$ or AUS$, though the conversion rates are roughly similar, or do you mean Brtitish £? It does makes quite a difference but I'm guessing you really mean £? There have been many claims the Raos are wealthy but little evidence to support this arguement. The only published information suggests they are wealthy by most people's standards but, crucially, not by Premier League standards. Can you first provide evidence of the claimed billion dollar turnover and secondly explain how this provides them with sufficient wealth to fund Rovers. Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity.

If we assume the billion dollar turnover to be true at say 5% net profit this equates to $50,000,000 or £32,000,000. £32m, even per annum, does not equate to serious funding of a PL club particularly as one presumes other business will require funding from these profits.

They clearly now have global ambitions for their brand, of which they see Rovers as playing a big part in and I don't see any evidence for them to either purposely or unintentionally ruin the club, and in turn hinder their global ambitions.

I agree there is no evidence they intended to ruin the club. The simple fact is they have. No getting awaye from it.

You talk to the media to tell the fans something they want to hear, you don't talk to the media to tell them exactly what you think. You can't go speak to the media and go into a lecture on how you plan to finance the club, what your short-term and long-term plans are, what your contingency plans are, or your entire thought process in dealing with everything. You just go out and give tidbits to the media to make some sort of statement.

Again agreed but the problem remains the Raos have failed to fulfill every statement made in the last 12 months, even down to a personal promise to pay fans travel expenses. These may never have been lies but each has proved to be an entirely empty statement leading to the situation whereby the fans do not believe the Raos even IF they are telling the truth.

You state there is a reason the Raos have gone quiet in a manner which suggests you know the reason. Can you enlighten us or is this not available to the "lay observer?"

People spread misinformation that we were in debts of 40 or 60 million dollars, maybe even 100 million! We can see that it's just not true. I was confident in stating that our loss figures would be 20 million for the 2010/2011 season and I am confident in stating that our loss figures will be considerably less and not very significant for the 2011/2012 season (dependent on our transfer dealings in January).

I suspect we both know but cannot yet state the current position, I look forward to being able to discuss it. For the purposes of this discussion lets use the 2009/10 figures which are in the public domain. Rovers had an operating loss of £1.9m on turnover of £57.8 and debt of £21m, wages were 82% of T/O and attendance averaged 25,400. This is indisputable. I accept your statement the operating loss is "fairly stagnant" for the time being. It's impossible though to agree the loss figures will be "considerably less and not very signifigant" for the 2011/2012 season UNLESS funding comes to the club. It is clear to all who attend Ewood (that's not a snipe) by comparison to 09/10 commercial revenue is down, crowds are down, matchday income may be dropping, place money will be reduced etc. Should the club be relegated, highly likley in my view the financial accounts for 2012/13 will probably be a disaster.

People have said that the Rao family have not spent money on the club, yet they paid the 43 million dollars to own it, they put in 10 million dollars as the accounts show and they are spending money on new infrastructure at the club, and on building the Rovers brand in India. As the accounts show, they're also not making money off selling players (or "asset stripping") as many had accused them of doing in the Summer.

Buying the club for £43m is not investing in the club, it's buying it. Those funds simply don't count. As for investing in the infrastructure the money need not have been spent, we had an infrastructure and now we have one that is worse having paid a lot of money for it!! Building a brand in India is utterly irrelevant to Rovers PL survival and hopefully progress. Sell 10m shirts in Asia at £1 profite each buys and funds a player over a three year contract. It's a pointless exercise in footballing terms but could be good for Venky's, providing they still own a PL club, which is unlikley in 20 weeks time or less.

I wanted and expected modest investment, shrewd business practice and emphasis on youth. I think we've got that, or at least not far off. The accounts show we're operating as before and what we've also seen is we've sold 2 players and brought in 7, plus 2 loans in the last two windows. They've also put in 10m into the club. Compare that to the last few years under the Trust.

They inherited an ageing squad that largely needs replacing AND bulking up. We mainly have either inexperienced youngsters or players 30+. The only thing that gave me confidence in the squad was Allardyce, but he was obviously sacked. I do have confidence in what I consider our best 11, but remove some of them and we have massive issues, as we've seen. To replace and bring in so many players is not an easy task.

The litmus test is have these actions improved the squad? The answer is clearly No. It is a difficult task to achieve succesfully and should have been lead by an experienced manager not a rookie.

Lastly, I think a LOT of people have severely misjudged the Rao family due to a number of reasons. In the Summer window, so many people claimed that Samba and Hoilett would be sold and no players would be brought in. Yet we retained both players and brought in 5 more (on top of the players acquired in January). Likewise, I think the Rao family misjudged the English media and the Blackburn fans and their actions as a result of that has contributed to their negative public image in England.

My stance has always been and will always remain that we are all part of the same club. The owners, the management team, the players, the fans… we are all in this together. Success and failure affects everyone, the problem has been that a large number of fans now perceive us to have enemies inside the club and have taken it upon themselves to drive them out.

We have judged the Rao family on their statements and actions to date and found them wanting at every stage. Other than the £10m put into the club they have FAILED to fulfill every statement or promise. There was a time when it was true we were all in it together. As it stands today the Rao family, Steve Kean and certain individuals employed at Ewood Park have created a massive divide between themselves and the support. Kean will never recover, the Raos have a very, very slim chance which will cost them tens of millions and years of work to rebuild trust.

The question must be do they have the desire?

[Miker]

PR - they do have a media platform to tell the fans, in detail, what their plans are for the club. It's called the Lancashire Telegraph. They would be only too willing to publish Venkys vision for the club. Certainly ahead of misleading, borderline incompetent tidbits about signing Ronaldinho and the like.

Yet Andy Cryer, who has always written professional, balanced articles regularly gets slated as a rubbish journo and often brought into the various conspiracy theories.

You can say something sensible and that most people would think is sensible, but people will still come out and make your words seem monstrous. It simply doesn't work, they've realised that and they've shut up. What would you have wanted them or hoped for them to say? What would you say to the media?

Emphasis on youth? Why? Everyone knows that successful teams have a mixture of youth and experience. We have, and continue to, removed the senior experienced players. Well at least those who, in my view, refuse to toe the line. Anyone who out-ranks Kean seems to be on their way, or 'injured'. It's probably just a coincidence though. What we have left is vast inexperience, and it's costing us. Even I'd you don't subscribe to the idea of lowered fitness levels, lack of concentration and experience to see games out have cost us points. This is down to the manager and his squad policy. Assuming he has one.

Emphasis on youth in the sense that we are looking to develop young players and promote them to the senior team, which is a policy I am very much in support of. I would rather we be a club known for developing good, talented players rather than a club that could buy a superstar on a whim. You won't win the league with a club like that, but you'll be running the club on an intelligent and sustainable business policy.

No I don't subscribe to the idea of lowered fitness levels and think more questions need to be asked of Kean and his staff. As I pointed out earlier, we seem to have a huge number of staff working on fitness, health and rehabilitation at the club, yet as Maji has pointed out, they are largely inexperienced and obviously ineffective. That is a legitimate question that needs to be asked.

You say no evidence (deliberate or unintentional) to ruin the club, yet later you say we are witnessing a club imploding. I sense, possibly unfairly, that you think the fans are the greater cause of this implosion. However, my feeling is that the fans have been driven to this by the action, and inaction, of Venkys and we are well into uncharted territory. At ANY other club in the football league, the manager would have been removed, at least 6 games ago.

If you look closer I am not pointing the finger at the fans or the owners. I am pointing my finger at an obvious campaign to undermine and attack the owners, which has put the owners in an unwinnable situation and has created a poisonous atmosphere among the fans. It may have started with something small, but it's snowballed, badly. My aim here isn't to say you're wrong, or to defend Venky's, or to make a point. My aim here is to diffuse a situation which will clearly destroy the club if it is allowed to fester for much longer. I would call on Venky's to sack Kean to help diffuse the situation, but I would also call on the fans to calm down and get some perspective on the situation. We need to work together, not fight against each other.

I sometimes despair that we live in a society that has enough freedom to allow average people to take action, yet people are more inclined to cause chaos and destruction than to do something proactive.

Re: sacking Kean. I'll be honest and say that this is the one thing I haven't worked out. This is mainly because I was personally against him from the start and simply don't think he's good enough on the evidence we have and think he should have either never been appointed, sacked in the Summer or sacked at least 6 games ago as you say. Why do the owners, or owner, still back him? I don't know. Maybe they truly believe in him and want to keep the faith. Maybe they can't find anyone better willing to come. Maybe it's another reason. They obviously didn't have any issues sacking Sam and McDonald or Jensen. So why not Kean?

For the record, I am completely ruling out any sinister reasons for Kean staying. I think it comes down to Kean getting in too close with the Raos and Mrs D in particular. I think this means that Kean can convince them he is not the issue and keep his job. If he stays then I am going to come out now and say that players will be bought.

Venkys may genuinely want success for the club (that they can then ride on the back of) but I see no evidence that are prepared to take us there.

I don't have any doubt over either of those things, so we'll see what happens in January.

[Mattyblue]

We had an 'emphasis on youth' before Venky's!

Jones, Hanley, Hoilett, Olsson, Lowe had all played before the Age of Chicken.

Jack's investment in the Academy and the club continuing to fund it for a decade ensured that.

And as for investing in India, do me a favour! The club is on it's knees! There is no need for 'scaremongoring', the evidence is there.

[PAFELL]

I think it is possible venkys have been told relegation would help the club eventually.

Thus would mean players leaving and cheaper ones coming in. Even the walker trust said wage bill is to high.

This would then mean that the club would receive the parachute payments, fees for players sold, wage bill reduced. Players then bought at lower transfer fees,, lower wages. In otherwords start again. Cannot help feeling they have been advised to level the club in order to rebuild. Maybe thinking rovers can afford to compete in a lower league, but not the prem.

Stupid and a dangerous plan, if that is the idea. There has also been mention of creating a 2nd prem league.

Heard there are still on going talks going on ref kean & budget today.

[The Prof.]

Yep that is correct. I don't know what I said back then, but I'm pretty sure I was scathing of both Kean and Venky's (especially Kean)!

I was listening to all the rumours nodding my head and going "shocking!" "kill them all!" etc.

Then something happened and I realised I was listening to nonsense, I went back through everything that we'd been told, everything that has happened and spoke to various people to get a better idea of what was going on. My 180 was a result of that process.

The logic of what I was being told only made sense if your line of logic included "Venky's act illogically", which just defeats the point of thinking logically...

This has to be the mother of all epiphany's!

Did you really say you did not want millions pumped int the club because it would make us like Man City? Look at the Prem table!

[Stuart]

Yet Andy Cryer, who has always written professional, balanced articles regularly gets slated as a rubbish journo and often brought into the various conspiracy theories.

You can say something sensible and that most people would think is sensible, but people will still come out and make your words seem monstrous. It simply doesn't work, they've realised that and they've shut up. What would you have wanted them or hoped for them to say? What would you say to the media?

Don't agree. Cryer and the Telegraph have consistently said they don't get communication from the owners so the can't have "realised and shut up" if they've never been open.

If you look closer I am not pointing the finger at the fans or the owners. I am pointing my finger at an obvious campaign to undermine and attack the owners, which has put the owners in an unwinnable situation and has created a poisonous atmosphere among the fans.

If not the fans, then who is it then behind this "obvious campaign" then? The protesters are fans. You make it sound like there are dark forces at work?

It may have started with something small, but it's snowballed, badly. My aim here isn't to say you're wrong, or to defend Venky's, or to make a point. My aim here is to diffuse a situation which will clearly destroy the club if it is allowed to fester for much longer. I would call on Venky's to sack Kean to help diffuse the situation, but I would also call on the fans to calm down and get some perspective on the situation. We need to work together, not fight against each other.

I sometimes despair that we live in a society that has enough freedom to allow average people to take action, yet people are more inclined to cause chaos and destruction than to do something proactive.

You obviously haven't been to a protest if you think they have been anywhere near chaotic. The situation has escalated significantly recently and although there were some ugly scenes outside the JW after the Bolton match, these were spontaneous, not organised demonstrations.

I don't have any doubt over either of those things, so we'll see what happens in January.

We may, but it will be much later next year when we find out how any signings were funded.

[roverandout]

miker, you speak ######!!! blaming the protestors for this is beyond contempt, the venkys have brought this on, noone else, they are the evil forces at work, i cant think of one good thing they have done for our club since they have been here, dont even try and deflect the attention away from them!!!

[Stuart]

I think it is possible venkys have been told relegation would help the club eventually.

Thus would mean players leaving and cheaper ones coming in. Even the walker trust said wage bill is to high.

This would then mean that the club would receive the parachute payments, fees for players sold, wage bill reduced. Players then bought at lower transfer fees,, lower wages. In otherwords start again. Cannot help feeling they have been advised to level the club in order to rebuild. Maybe thinking rovers can afford to compete in a lower league, but not the prem.

Stupid and a dangerous plan, if that is the idea. There has also been mention of creating a 2nd prem league.

Heard there are still on going talks going on ref kean & budget today.

There is no kudos for Venkys brand owning a Championship team. Otherwise they would have bought one.

If they won't fund a stay in the PL, why would they fund a return. The long game there is years as a yo-yo club - if we are lucky - before eventually ending up back where we are today with wages bigger than our fan-base can afford!

One of the main perceived benefits of Indian owners was increasing the local fan-base. They havent even tried!! Preferring instead to create a pet project V-League in Pune.

They should NEVER EVER have bought a football club, and definitely not Blackburn Rovers Football Club. We know it, they know it.

[Wiggy]

Re: sacking Kean. I'll be honest and say that this is the one thing I haven't worked out. This is mainly because I was personally against him from the start and simply don't think he's good enough on the evidence we have and think he should have either never been appointed, sacked in the Summer or sacked at least 6 games ago as you say. Why do the owners, or owner, still back him? I don't know. Maybe they truly believe in him and want to keep the faith. Maybe they can't find anyone better willing to come. Maybe it's another reason. They obviously didn't have any issues sacking Sam and McDonald or Jensen. So why not Kean?

For the record, I am completely ruling out any sinister reasons for Kean staying. I think it comes down to Kean getting in too close with the Raos and Mrs D in particular. I think this means that Kean can convince them he is not the issue and keep his job. If he stays then I am going to come out now and say that players will be bought.

This single decision to stick with Kean has proven and will prove to be the one that cost the Raos £10s of millions of pounds and consigned Blackburn Rovers to years in the wilderness.

I'm absolutely convinced that if they'd brought in a competent manager before the run "of six winnable games" that Rovers would have survived this season.

Now they may find it difficult to find an experienced manager to take the job.

However, if the Raos commissioned a simple phone poll of season ticket holders with the question;

"Will you renew your ticket next season if Steve Kean is still the manager?",

I am sure that the results would shock them.

I know dozens of season ticket holders and would be surprised if more than a handful renewed if this manager is still in charge.

Mrs Desai, either through arrogance, stubbornness or stupidity has insisted on sticking with Kean.

It hasn't worked Mrs Desai. Kean is an excellent manipulator and spinner of truths but what he patently isn't is a competent football manager.

If they can't afford or find another manager then just sack Kean and put a senior player in charge for the rest of the season.

It will at least bring some unity back to the club.

The definition of madness is to keep on doing the same thing and to expect a different result.

[roverandout]

miker you think players will be bought even though kamy, nicko, glen etc have said they wont, not to mention other well informed itk's so please tell me what information you have that makes you think they are liars (itk's)

[47er]

Miker, you repeat the error that I thought was dead and buried----------Venkys did not pay 43M for the club, they paid 22M and took over the existing debt of 21M. For goodness sake, that's why Barclays met with the Board,because despite contactual obligations to pay off debt at agreed intervals, Venkys did not pay off one cent. Their promises to the Bank are as good as their promises to the fans.

I won't go through the points you've made one by one since others have, but I will say they amount to nothing substantial. Whatever fears people had when Venkys took over have been realised many times over! Never in my wildest dreams did I think things could turn out so badly.

I think you're a contrarian ie you're arguing for the sake of it. How could things be worse? We'll soon know.

[sharpysharps]

So with Venky's not putting anymore money in I guess this means Mrs D has won in her little family fued with Balaji? So would this also mean they are persuing buyers to take over the club? Doubt anyone would want Rovers on their plate but you never know.

It appears that The Rao's are the Hicks and Gillett of 2011-2012. Problem is nobody cares about little old Blackburn.

[Kamy100]

miker you think players will be bought even though kamy, nicko, glen etc have said they wont, not to mention other well informed itk's so please tell me what information you have that makes you think they are liars (itk's)

I can assure you that unless the owners are stringing Kean along then the only players that will be bought will be in the form of Loans, if Kean manages to sell some players then he'll get a percentage of the money raised from those sales. In the absence of the owners pumping money into the club then the wage bill will have to be reduced over the next month or so.

There are no hidden agendas here on my part, I am desperate to see Venky's succeed because that is the only way at the moment that the club can go forward, unfortunately the events of the last few days suggest otherwise.

[whittle blue]

Fair play to Regoftherovers for picking up on Charlie Nicholas back in October.

Charlie confirms what we all thought

[BigAlan]

Yet Andy Cryer, who has always written professional, balanced articles regularly gets slated as a rubbish journo and often brought into the various conspiracy theories.

You can say something sensible and that most people would think is sensible, but people will still come out and make your words seem monstrous. It simply doesn't work, they've realised that and they've shut up. What would you have wanted them or hoped for them to say? What would you say to the media?

Emphasis on youth in the sense that we are looking to develop young players and promote them to the senior team, which is a policy I am very much in support of. I would rather we be a club known for developing good, talented players rather than a club that could buy a superstar on a whim. You won't win the league with a club like that, but you'll be running the club on an intelligent and sustainable business policy.

No I don't subscribe to the idea of lowered fitness levels and think more questions need to be asked of Kean and his staff. As I pointed out earlier, we seem to have a huge number of staff working on fitness, health and rehabilitation at the club, yet as Maji has pointed out, they are largely inexperienced and obviously ineffective. That is a legitimate question that needs to be asked.

If you look closer I am not pointing the finger at the fans or the owners. I am pointing my finger at an obvious campaign to undermine and attack the owners, which has put the owners in an unwinnable situation and has created a poisonous atmosphere among the fans. It may have started with something small, but it's snowballed, badly. My aim here isn't to say you're wrong, or to defend Venky's, or to make a point. My aim here is to diffuse a situation which will clearly destroy the club if it is allowed to fester for much longer. I would call on Venky's to sack Kean to help diffuse the situation, but I would also call on the fans to calm down and get some perspective on the situation. We need to work together, not fight against each other.

I sometimes despair that we live in a society that has enough freedom to allow average people to take action, yet people are more inclined to cause chaos and destruction than to do something proactive.

Re: sacking Kean. I'll be honest and say that this is the one thing I haven't worked out. This is mainly because I was personally against him from the start and simply don't think he's good enough on the evidence we have and think he should have either never been appointed, sacked in the Summer or sacked at least 6 games ago as you say. Why do the owners, or owner, still back him? I don't know. Maybe they truly believe in him and want to keep the faith. Maybe they can't find anyone better willing to come. Maybe it's another reason. They obviously didn't have any issues sacking Sam and McDonald or Jensen. So why not Kean?

For the record, I am completely ruling out any sinister reasons for Kean staying. I think it comes down to Kean getting in too close with the Raos and Mrs D in particular. I think this means that Kean can convince them he is not the issue and keep his job. If he stays then I am going to come out now and say that players will be bought.

I don't have any doubt over either of those things, so we'll see what happens in January.

I don't mean to be funny, but have you ever even been to Ewood? The majority of fans don't use these sites and have no idea about the information that gets passed around on here. There was one lad in the concourse before half time saw the Kean and Anderson out banner on the telly and said "who's Anderson?" the poisonous atmosphere has come from two wins all season and Kean's beyond woeful record. You keep trying to rationalise the irrational. Supporters who don't use forums want Kean out. As do supporters who use them. It's impossible to rationalise any of this mess.

[roverandout]

kamy im not doubting you, on the contary i beleive you more than most, im just saying to miker that he keeps churning out all these statements when he probably hasnt got a clue