[Archived] Diouf

[T4E]

Could you explain that further T4E? Strong willed / stubborn / arrogant I'd agree but an idiot? No way.

Exhibit A -

"I'm not suited to Bolton or Blackburn. I would be more suited to Inter Milan or Real Madrid. It wouldn't be a problem for me to go and manage those clubs. I would win the double or the league every time. Give me Manchester United or Chelsea, it would be the same, no problem."

Exhibit B -

"All you punters and supporters out there - leave it to me. I'm the expert, not you."

Idiot.

[Andy]

Former was quite clearly tongue-in-cheek, latter is a fair comment all things taken into consideration.

Don't get how that makes the man an idiot?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Allardyce seems to have goaded a lot of people into believing that him and his brand of football are the only way for a club like Rovers to limp just above the bottom 5 teams, and that by extension we should be extremely grateful for his lowering himself into guiding our poor club forward.

He did nothing of the sort, almost everyone who supported him couldn't care less about his personality, interviews and other personal tripe the anti-Sam brigade go on about. His stats in black and white goaded us into supporting him, if Ronald McDonald had the same record with Rovers I'd support him too.

The image of Allardyce the media and bitter big club fans had built up over a decade goaded our fans into believing he's the only manager who should be criticised for playing direct football in England, when actually about 50% of managers play pretty much the same way

Bottom 5 teams?? WE FINISHED 10TH IN HIS ONLY FULL SEASON HERE. Jesus, I feel like I'm going insane at times with this totally made up rubbish about him struggling above the relegation zone.

Rovers aren't a poor club on merit, we're a small club with no money who overachieve. I don't know whether its because we were the best team in England once upon a time that some fans struggle to come to terms with that, but its the stark reality of post-Jack Rovers. If every club had managers of exactly the same ability, Rovers would be in the bottom 5 because our ticket revenue is non-existent and for years we've spent less on transfers and less on wages than most of the league. So yes, Allardyce was greatly overachieving and was without doubt guiding Rovers forward.

[BuckyRover]

Exhibit A -

Exhibit B -

Idiot.

You won't get a reply to this.

I mentioned this before when people were saying Kean was talking rubbish, likes it's only something he could do.

[Commondore]

Bottom 5 teams?? WE FINISHED 10TH IN HIS ONLY FULL SEASON HERE. Jesus, I feel like I'm going insane at times with this totally made up rubbish about him struggling above the relegation zone.

That we did, while also hovering just above or even in the relegation zone for large portions of the season as well. We had 10 points after 10 games (these included the infamous 2-6 against Arsenal and 0-5 against Chelsea), 21 after 20, 35 after 30. The top 10 finish(which we were nowhere near during any other stage of the season) came from a good last two months where we picked up points with some regularity. That is of course commendable, but nothing more than some last minute make-up slapped upon an at best mediocre season.

[Andy]

You won't get a reply to this.

I mentioned this before when people were saying Kean was talking rubbish, likes it's only something he could do.

I've already replied to this - see the top post on this page.

[T4E]

Former was quite clearly tongue-in-cheek, latter is a fair comment all things taken into consideration.

Don't get how that makes the man an idiot?

In my opinion, those are two extremely idiotic comments. Any manager could make those comments and claim them to be tongue in cheek. Most don't, because they know it will make them look foolish.

[dunc]

That we did, while also hovering just above or even in the relegation zone for large portions of the season as well. We had 10 points after 10 games (these included the infamous 2-6 against Arsenal and 0-5 against Chelsea), 21 after 20, 35 after 30. The top 10 finish(which we were nowhere near during any other stage of the season) came from a good last two months where we picked up points with some regularity. That is of course commendable, but nothing more than some last minute make-up slapped upon an at best mediocre season.

What drivel. So let's forget we finished tenth, its where you are in January that counts?

We finished tenth on merit over 38 games, thus reflecting our true standing in the table. No slapping on of make up required.

It's only after 38 games you get a true picture as its the only time everyone has played everyone else twice. This is the case regardless of mid season downturns in form.

[BuckyRover]

I've already replied to this - see the top post on this page.

My comment was tongue in cheek

[ABBEY]

Would you not sack kean,Dunc? By your logic it won't matter if we have 0 points at christmas because we still have not played everyone twice.

[den]

My God den, do you really honestly believe that, or are you just being a bit mischevious?

Not one of the fans wanted this. No one wanted us to sack Sam and appoint Kean. Plenty wanted us to sack Sam and appoint a manager that atleast attempted to compete with the opposition in every game not just in the ones he pre-determined we could win, or a manager that didn't talk down to the fans and insinuate that we should be grateful just for his mere presence at our club.

Of course I believe it, I wouldn't have posted it otherwise.

Yes, after the event i.e. Kean being proved pretty well useless, those fans who didn't want Allardyce

are bound to say that they didn't want Kean either. How can anyone credibly launch into a campaign against Allardyce, without stating who they wanted instead? - They can't. It is the truth T4E, that those fans didn't ever consider that there were worse, far worse options than Sam. That didn't come into the reckoning.

I don't remember the facebook campaign saying no to Sam, unless we can't find anyone better. They didn't care as long as he didn't come here. They didn't believe there was anyone worse than Allardyce.

[ABBEY]

Den lie down pal.

[Stuart]

Former was quite clearly tongue-in-cheek, latter is a fair comment all things taken into consideration.

Don't get how that makes the man an idiot?

The comments can be taken a different way depending on who is making them.

If Kean said the exact same comments he'd be rightly rounded upon. That would suggest he's lost the plot completely.

Sam saying them can obviously be seen as Tongue in cheek. He was even laughing to the interviewer when he made the second. (Although he did himself no favours at the time he said them).

The difference? Age, experience, integrity and track record.

(No, I'm not talking about you, Theno! )

[den]

Den lie down pal.

I did earlier on, after being up all night with the bloomin' dog. Postman woke me up.

Anyway, I'll leave this particular argument after posing one question.

Prior to Allardyce and JW deciding that it was better that SA withdrew his application for the job, we already had thousands of fans signing Facebook petitions, writing into the LT and posting objections on here. Before they signed these petitions etc, did they:

think we get could get no-one worse than SA?

Or didn't they care?

Simple question.

[T4E]

Of course I believe it, I wouldn't have posted it otherwise.

Yes, after the event i.e. Kean being proved pretty well useless, those fans who didn't want Allardyce

are bound to say that they didn't want Kean either. How can anyone credibly launch into a campaign against Allardyce, without stating who they wanted instead? - They can't. It is the truth T4E, that those fans didn't ever consider that there were worse, far worse options than Sam. That didn't come into the reckoning.

I don't remember the facebook campaign saying no to Sam, unless we can't find anyone better. They didn't care as long as he didn't come here. They didn't believe there was anyone worse than Allardyce.

Wow - has there ever been a post with more groundless assumptions in than that?!

The burden of proof is well and truly on you here Den - can you show where fans said they were happy with Kean replacing Sam? What nobody considered is not that there were worse options - that much is obivous. Nobody thought Venkys would appoint the tea boy. I tell you what - why don't we ask the mods for a poll. One question - if you had known Venkys would replace Sam with Kean, would you have still wanted him sacked? A simple yes or no. I would suggest the vast vast majority would say no.

It is not up to the fans to appoint the new manager - it's the club that made the error here, not us. I'm more than happy to admit that I would prefer Sam over Kean - but there's many others I would prefer over Sam. If you go back to the thread around the time he was sacked, plenty of names were mentioned.

[ABBEY]

Den I'm on record as saying I wanted lardy out and I didn't want Kean, I wanted king kenny(before he took scouse job). Do you want kean ? If yes a bit double standards xxx also answer this question who has more medals in english management kean or the messia? To say he's this he's that he's won bugger all really has he? Even the big eck has won more!

[den]

The burden of proof is well and truly on you here Den - can you show where fans said they were happy with Kean replacing Sam? What nobody considered is not that there were worse options - that much is obivous. Nobody thought Venkys would appoint the tea boy.

Why do I have to prove that people wanted Kean instead of Sam - when it's so obvious that no rovers fan wanted that. I haven't argued that anywhere.

My point was and is, that lessons need to be learned. You don't sack a manger who has taken a small town Premier League club with little money into the top half of the league. You would think that was a "given", but there are still many people who would do the same again.

The other point we're discussing, might warrant an answer to my question in the post above.

[den]

Den I'm on record as saying I wanted lardy out and I didn't want Kean, I wanted king kenny(before he took scouse job). Do you want kean ? If yes a bit double standards xxx also answer this question who has more medals in english management kean or the messia? To say he's this he's that he's won bugger all really has he? Even the big eck has won more!

Abbey, I'm not arguing who's the best manager. I'm arguing that some fans didn't have the brains to believe that we could possibly appoint anyone worse than Sam. and if they did, then they were prepared for the club to take that risk.

John Williams for one, would never have taken that risk. Very few Chairmen in football anywhere would sack a manager who's getting results on a shoestring - never mind a negative budget of millions of pounds.

[Stuart]

I did earlier on, after being up all night with the bloomin' dog. Postman woke me up.

Anyway, I'll leave this particular argument after posing one question.

Prior to Allardyce and JW deciding that it was better that SA withdrew his application for the job, we already had thousands of fans signing Facebook petitions, writing into the LT and posting objections on here. Before they signed these petitions etc, did they:

think we get could get no-one worse than SA?

Or didn't they care?

Simple question.

As someone who didn't sign the petitions, some suggestions:

1) Being an ex Bolton manager - rivals to some extent

2) The Southern media drivel about boring football and lack of entertainment value

3) People had seen Rovers take strides forward under Hughes, turning us into a Top 8 (nay Top 6 club, for a time), Sam perhaps didn't seem the man to pick up that baton and take us forward?

4) Sam was a failure in his last job and maybe some thought he'd been found out?

For me, Sam was the ideal man for our finances and club ethos, and 20-20 hindsight proves this out. Had we been bought out by another Jack (a fan prepared to put his money were his heart was), we may have wanted another Kenny (a successful, charismatic, player-attracting, manager you could be proud of).

Truth is, he probably still is the right man given that we don't seem to have much more funds than we had before the Trust stopped funds. I wonder if Venky's are thinking this at all, having seemingly gone full circle back to how the club was before they arrived (minus the league placings and fans' pride).

As someone who frequently stuck up for Sam and his (winning) percentage football, I still don't think he was the long term answer. I always felt he'd retire in the not too distant future. Perhaps his pride was dented which is why he wanted another managers position. I can't see him taking another job after West Ham - unless by some miracle he was offered The Big One.

I wonder if people's opinions would have been different about Sam if they had known:

1) Scenario A - we'd get Ince and he'd be useless

2) Scenario B - he'd be replaced by Kean

Who could we have brought in instead of Sam before Ince? Not sure, I don't think anyone really knows apart from someone who was out of our reach.

It seems people wanted a young manager with some hunger and a reputation of playing winning, stylish football. Well, on the face of it, we had exactly that with Ince albeit in League 2.

One thing is for sure, we had a damned sight better chance of attracing a decent manager to follow Hughes than we have in getting one to follow Kean (up to press).

You never know, when Kean get's us into the Champion's League, we might be able to pick from the cream of Europe...

[T4E]

My point was and is, that lessons need to be learned. You don't sack a manger who has taken a small town Premier League club with little money into the top half of the league. You would think that was a "given", but there are still many people who would do the same again.

Here's the rub thought Den. The only reason this is an issue is because we replaced him with someone useless. If we had replaced him with Mark Hughes, or Martin Jol, or Martin O'Neill, or Alex McLeish (I have chosen them because they've all left or joined similar sized clubs recently) then we would not be having this discussion.

Your point is that the error was in sacking Allardyce. My point is that the error was replacing him with Kean. The reason I believe that is in the first paragraph of this post. Can you explain why you believe Sam to have been so irreplaceable?

[ABBEY]

Because Sam is the messiah who doesn't have an ounce of winner in him!

[thenodrog]

You won't get a reply to this.

He got a perfectly adequate one from Andy just a couple of posts up.

Please try to keep up Bucky

In my opinion, those are two extremely idiotic comments. Any manager could make those comments and claim them to be tongue in cheek. Most don't, because they know it will make them look foolish.

whether they were humerous or ill judged is irrelevent. Only points count in this business. In the past 8 years we've had two managers who punched miles above their weight and two plonkers who would have us relegated. Personal and irrational hatred aside we all know who they are.

[thenodrog]

I did earlier on, after being up all night with the bloomin' dog. Postman woke me up.

Anyway, I'll leave this particular argument after posing one question.

Prior to Allardyce and JW deciding that it was better that SA withdrew his application for the job, we already had thousands of fans signing Facebook petitions, writing into the LT and posting objections on here. Before they signed these petitions etc, did they:

think we get could get no-one worse than SA?

Or didn't they care?

Simple question.

4 months of Ince proved the facebook army know the square root of sweet FA about football matters. They should stick to discussing what they had for tea or what colour of socks they wear or whatever it is that facebook is designed for.

Personally I suspect facebookers know the square root of sweet FA about most things but there you go.

[BuckyRover]

Two managers who punched miles above their weight.

Yet you only supported one of them

[T4E]

whether they were humerous or ill judged is irrelevent. Only points count in this business. In the past 8 years we've had two managers who punched miles above their weight and two plonkers who would have us relegated. Personal and irrational hatred aside we all know who they are.

Herein lies the problem - anyone who criticises Allardyce on here gets accused of irrational hatred or some other suchlike. I don't hate him - but I don't like him either. He was a good manager doing a good job, but he said and did some really dicky stuff. I was of the belief we could get someone of similar ability but with a better character and football philosophy. Mark Hughes availability for one would suggest that is still possible.

Are we really so blinkered that all we can see is hatred or admiration and nothing in between?