[Archived] Diouf

[thenodrog]

Here's the rub thought Den. The only reason this is an issue is because we replaced him with someone useless. If we had replaced him with Mark Hughes, or Martin Jol, or Martin O'Neill, or Alex McLeish (I have chosen them because they've all left or joined similar sized clubs recently) then we would not be having this discussion.

Your point is that the error was in sacking Allardyce. My point is that the error was replacing him with Kean. The reason I believe that is in the first paragraph of this post. Can you explain why you believe Sam to have been so irreplaceable?

Easy T4E. You've answered your own question. The above managers wouldn't have come to BRFC. It would have represented a step back for all of them rather than the step up they all crave. It's no good living in the past, much of our status and credibility died with Jack Walker 10 years ago.

Two managers who punched miles above their weight.

Yet you only supported one of them

Everybody on here will know that you are stupid by now bucky so why do you continually feel the need to prove it? Tell yiou what .... you find any post on here where I didn't support Mark Hughes as our manager. His performance here was incredible.

[BuckyRover]

Easy T4E. You've answered your own question. The above managers wouldn't have come to BRFC. It would have represented a step back for all of them rather than the step up they all crave. It's no good living in the past, much of our status and credibility died with Jack Walker 10 years ago.

Everybody on here will know that you are stupid by now bucky so why do you continually feel the need to prove it? Tell yiou what .... you find any post on here where I didn't support Mark Hughes as our manager. His performance here was incredible.

You were against him being appointed.

A 50% hit record in our appointment of successful managers is quite low for a self confessed football genius.

[T4E]

Easy T4E. You've answered your own question. The above managers wouldn't have come to BRFC. It would have represented a step back for all of them rather than the step up they all crave. It's no good living in the past, much of our status and credibility died with Jack Walker 10 years ago.

Yet another post based on assumption and speculation represented as fact. Jol was out of work and went to Fulham as soon as he was offered. He left Ajax and went there - does that sound too upwardly mobile for us?? I would suggest he was very likely to have come here. Hodgson went to West Brom in February - very likely he would have come here too. Hughes is probably unlikely, but we don't know for sure. Who knows about O'Neill. Sacking Kean and appointing McLeish when Brum went down could have happened if we'd got our act together, and again anyone looking at it objectively would likely say there's a good chance he would have come here, too.

The Sam fan club want us to believe that he was our one and only option, anyone without the cloud of bias can see that's patently not the case.

[thenodrog]

You were against him being appointed.

The reasons for my apprehension are well documented. BUT as manager I always supported Hughes's position, even in that first year when we were struggling for quality players and scrapping against relegation. You wrongly stated that I didn't support him.

Yet another post based on assumption and speculation represented as fact. Jol was out of work and went to Fulham as soon as he was offered. He left Ajax and went there - does that sound too upwardly mobile for us?? I would suggest he was very likely to have come here. Hodgson went to West Brom in February - very likely he would have come here too. Hughes is probably unlikely, but we don't know for sure. Who knows about O'Neill. Sacking Kean and appointing McLeish when Brum went down could have happened if we'd got our act together, and again anyone looking at it objectively would likely say there's a good chance he would have come here, too.

"Yet another post based on assumption and speculation represented as fact."

Thats rich! You are leading the way in that dept with those options. Lets forget Hodgson cos he was never ever going to resign from Lpool so he was never in the equation. Mcleish was in work too and since has done better than join us and imo would hardly have left Brum last December for our job. Meanwhile Jol had only just come on the job market and Whiptop O' Neill has hardly been snapped up since he left Villa has he?

Judge them how you like but personally speaking none of those would have been an improvement on Allardyce and most definitely not for a club with our resources.

Oh btw by supreme irony re: entertaining football. As I type WHU under the idiotic hoofballing slug are now the leading scorers in the championship and have the best GD. Ours GD is -4 under our attack minded, passing football thinking manager etc etc.

[T4E]

Alarming lack of knowledge you've shown there Gordon. A few facts for you then.

I already explained the way in which we could have got McLeish.

Hodgson left Liverpool while Kean was still on his short term contract.

Jol "came on the market" as you put it when he resigned from Ajax on December 6th, a full week before we sacked Allardyce.

I'm glad being the top scorers in the Championship impresses you. Me, not so much.

[BuckyRover]

Well done theno. You supported Highes as our manager. You must be in esteemed company.

[m1st]

I heard a rumour earlier this evening that EHD was on his way to join a Russian club; so I went onto Wiki [i know; I know! ] to see if anything had surfaced on there about this.

It hasn't so far; but, as I was at a loose end, I switched to the French version of Wiki to try to read what it had to say about Diouf. My French isn't brilliant, but I was interested to read this:

Il signe le 30 janvier 2009 à Blackburn où il revient sous les ordres de son ancien entraîneur à Bolton, Sam Allardyce. Peu productif côté buts marqués, il est néanmoins le créateur de l'équipe, procurant souvent des occasions et n'ayant rien perdu de sa technique. Malgré cela, le club stagne. Le 1er Septembre 2011 il rompt son contrat le liant à Blackburn.

Which, I think, translates something like:

On 30 January 2009, he signed for Blackburn Rovers, where he came under the management of his former boss at Bolton, Sam Allardyce. Less productive in terms of goals scored, he was nevertheless the playmaker of the team, often making opportunities for others and not having lost his skill. Despite this, the club stagnated. On 1 September 2011, he broke his contract with Blackburn.

Which is a bit different from what the English version of Wiki has to say:

By the end of the 2009-10 season, he had made 27 appearances, scoring three goals. He was given number 10 for the 2010-11 season.

On 20 August 2011, Rovers manager Steve Kean confirmed that Diouf wasn't in his first-team plans, and that he expected him to leave before the end of the 2011/12 transfer window.[10]

On 31 August 2011 Blackburn terminated Diouf's contract by mutual consent. He had fallen out with manager Kean after returning late for pre-season training.[11]

I'd love to know who wrote the French version!

[47er]

This "right to sack Sam but wrong to appoint Kean" BS makes me puke. If you have the lowest prices in the League and just about the smallest catchment area,and your owners have withdrawn funding so you always have a negative transfer budget-------yet despite all this your manager more or less guarantees to get you 10th----------and you sack him------------you're a complete nutter!

You think its possible to find someone else who can guarantee that outcome but play pretty football as well? Absolute madness.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

This "right to sack Sam but wrong to appoint Kean" BS makes me puke. If you have the lowest prices in the League and just about the smallest catchment area,and your owners have withdrawn funding so you always have a negative transfer budget-------yet despite all this your manager more or less guarantees to get you 10th----------and you sack him------------you're a complete nutter!

You think its possible to find someone else who can guarantee that outcome but play pretty football as well? Absolute madness.

That argument has been made a hundred different times in a hundred different ways but I've seen none better than that, perfectly put. And the reason why many of our fans deserve Venkys and Kean. If they'd have been daft enough to sack Sam as well then its a match made in heaven between 2 groups of people equally clueless about football.

[tony gale's mic]

This "right to sack Sam but wrong to appoint Kean" BS makes me puke. If you have the lowest prices in the League and just about the smallest catchment area,and your owners have withdrawn funding so you always have a negative transfer budget-------yet despite all this your manager more or less guarantees to get you 10th----------and you sack him------------you're a complete nutter!

You think its possible to find someone else who can guarantee that outcome but play pretty football as well? Absolute madness.

I think those people who peddle that nonsense know deep down they're wrong but refuse to admit it.

Basically they were asking for something which has never been achieved by any PL manager since money started to dominate the game in the last ten years or so.

Maybe Hughes at a push but you'd be hard pushed to find any neutral who would describe our football under him as aesthetically pleasing once Bellamy left and Tugay's legs started to go.

Curbishley, Allardyce, Pulis (before the money started to roll in)...they've all got one thing in common.

[tony gale's mic]

My God den, do you really honestly believe that, or are you just being a bit mischevious?

Not one of the fans wanted this. No one wanted us to sack Sam and appoint Kean. Plenty wanted us to sack Sam and appoint a manager that atleast attempted to compete with the opposition in every game not just in the ones he pre-determined we could win, or a manager that didn't talk down to the fans and insinuate that we should be grateful just for his mere presence at our club.

Allardyce was an idiot, lets face it. That doesn't take away from his ability to get clubs winning their fair share of football matches, but there's plenty of managers out there who can do that without feeling the need to blow their own trumpet to anyone that will listen.

That's the situation the fans wanted to work towards. The fact that it didn't happen shows that Venky's didnt remove Sam for any reason even closely related to fan power - thus rendering the arguement that some fans "got what they wished for" completely redundant.

Sorry but this is total, total guff.

You have no idea how much Sam attempted in certain matches. He certainly never did a Mick McCarthy or Ian Holloway and fielded an entire reserve team against one of the big teams (though our team in the 7-1 Utd thrashing was probably weaker than it should have been). He usually put out a strong team but his tactics which worked so well against smaller teams often meant we sat back and invited pressure onto us too much against the bigger teams. A tactical error? Yes, certainly. Grounds for sacking? Nowhere, nowhere near.

In his only full season at Ewood we were unbeaten at home against the top 4. Granted we were terrible away from home against them but that's basically four games a season. To use that as a big stick to beat him with is ridiculous.

Who cares how much he blew his own trumpet? How many managers of clubs with smaller budgets have done what he's done? Look at how much money Moyes has spent over the years (brilliant manager though he is) and compare it to Allardyce. I'm not saying that Allardyce is better, just that it brings into light just how meagre his resources were.

There are very few managers who can achieve what Sam did with us, we were lucky to have had one before that in Hughes too. But you dont get many clubs on small budgets consistently getting top 10 finishes like he did with us and Bolton. To sack him full stop was insanity since we had someone who was tailor made for the situation we were in, and we wouldve been very hard pressed to find someone who could come in and do a similar job - and who realistically would want to join.

[Amo]

Marry the guy already. Please.

[tony gale's mic]

Marry the guy already. Please.

No, I'm just giving fair dues to someone who served our club well.

You on the other hand have to resort to pathetic childish digs since your lack of knowledge and sense when it comes to anything football related prevents you from making a good argument.

[Amo]

No, I'm just giving fair dues to someone who served our club well.

You've done that and then some. Every other post of yours comes back to licking Sam's goolies. Yes, the guy was a decent manager for us. WE. GET. IT.

You on the other hand have to resort to pathetic childish digs since your lack of knowledge and sense when it comes to anything football related prevents you from making a good argument.

Irony.

[tony gale's mic]

You've done that and then some. Every other post of yours comes back to licking Sam's goolies. Yes, the guy was a decent manager for us. WE. GET. IT.

Irony.

That's only because we have idiots like you still claiming sacking him wasn't a bad idea.

Oh, and my childish digs usually come packaged within a demonstration of my superior football knowledge over the likes of you (not that it takes much), not in lieu of it. The difference isn't really that subtle.

[Amo]

That's only because we have idiots like you still claiming sacking him wasn't a bad idea.

I always said he should have gone in the Summer when his contract expired. He wanted out by all accounts, anyway.

If you want to get technical, sacking him wasn't a bad move. Hiring Kean was the clusterf*ck.

Oh, and my childish digs usually come packaged within a demonstration of my superior football knowledge over the likes of you (not that it takes much), not in lieu of it. The difference isn't really that subtle.

Fair enough. You're the expert, not me.

[K-Hod]

My god is the SA debate rumbling on still? Really????

[T4E]

You have no idea how much Sam attempted in certain matches.

....

....

....

In his only full season at Ewood we were unbeaten at home against the top 4. Granted we were terrible away from home against them but that's basically four games a season.

Are you suggesting that he didnt try in those games? Or still insisting that we don't know? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

Anyway, I'll stick to what I've said. Didn't like him, wasn't upset we sacked him, am upset with who we replaced him with, and would welcome him back with open arms due to the standard of the incumbent.

[K-Hod]

Are you suggesting that he didnt try in those games? Or still insisting that we don't know? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

Anyway, I'll stick to what I've said. Didn't like him, wasn't upset we sacked him, am upset with who we replaced him with, and would welcome him back with open arms due to the standard of the incumbent.

I think that about sums up my feelings. Thing is, Allardyce punched WAY about his weight during his time here for the most part.

My only major issue with him, was his ego, and how it was all about him a la Mourinho, nobody is bigger than the club, player or manager, regardless of how much they contribute to the success of said club.

[tony gale's mic]

I think that about sums up my feelings. Thing is, Allardyce punched WAY about his weight during his time here for the most part.

My only major issue with him, was his ego, and how it was all about him a la Mourinho, nobody is bigger than the club, player or manager, regardless of how much they contribute to the success of said club.

If that was your major issue, then it really isn't an issue.

I've recently posted on here that I don't understand why people care so much about interviews and that goes the same here.

Manager that interviews badly and has us finishing top 10 >>>>>> Manager that regularly talks about his love for the club and has us finishing lower mid table. Always.

Sam didn't pretend he had some kind of huge affinity for the club. Why would he? He spent years and years managing one of our biggest rivals after Burnley and was here to do a job.

[T4E]

If that was your major issue, then it really isn't an issue.

I've recently posted on here that I don't understand why people care so much about interviews and that goes the same here.

Whether or not you understand it doesnt change whether or not they do.

It clearly was an issue to many, and wasn't an issue to many others. We're all different.

[tony gale's mic]

Are you suggesting that he didnt try in those games? Or still insisting that we don't know? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

I'm saying he most likely did try, since that was his job. People claim he just gave up against the top teams - what would he have to gain by doing that?

He may well have given off impressions of having a big ego, being arrogant, tbh I'd go along with those to some degree. But he never came off as being a lazy manager.

Tactically I think he was found lacking away to the top teams though, though not at home when we performed superbly against the top 4 on the whole.

Whether or not you understand it doesnt change whether or not they do.

It clearly was an issue to many, and wasn't an issue to many others. We're all different.

I can understand why people would find it irritating, but not to the point of wanting him out of a job.

Unless they want to come out and say they'd prefer a manager who interviews well and performs badly, over a manager who interviews badly and performs well.

[T4E]

I'm saying he most likely did try, since that was his job. People claim he just gave up against the top teams - what would he have to gain by doing that?

Same as Holloway and McCarthy that you mentioned earlier - no risk of the better players getting injured/over exerting themselves therefore leaving them more likely to perform in what he deemed as "winnable" games.

I can understand why people would find it irritating, but not to the point of wanting him out of a job.

Unless they want to come out and say they'd prefer a manager who interviews well and performs badly, over a manager who interviews badly and performs well.

I think that's where we're at odds - I didn't actively want him sacked, I just didn't shed a tear when he was. For the above given reasons.

[tony gale's mic]

Same as Holloway and McCarthy that you mentioned earlier - no risk of the better players getting injured/over exerting themselves therefore leaving them more likely to perform in what he deemed as "winnable" games.

I think that's where we're at odds - I didn't actively want him sacked, I just didn't shed a tear when he was. For the above given reasons.

No, not the same as Holloway and McCarthy at all.

The team vs Man United who lost 7-1 featured Samba, Nelsen, Salgado, Jones, Chimbonda (a first team player at that point), Emerton, Dunn, Diouf and Roberts. The only member of the lineup who wouldn't have started normally was Goulon.

How on earth is that possibly similar to Holloway and McCarthy fielding almost an entire first XI of reserves?!

Like I said, this whole "Sam didn't try against the big teams" is absolute bullshit. If he didn't try he would have saved all the first team players against injuries like Holloway and McCarthy did.

And clearly you rate how a manager interviews on a similar footing to the results he gets, if that was your reaction. Because otherwise, his overall very good record as Rovers manager would have massively outweighed some of the interviews he did.

But you're right in one respect, if you want to prioritise interviews on a similar footing to results, that's your choice.

[Rover_Shaun]

Fair enough. You're the expert, not me.

I thought Big Sam was "the expert"?