[Archived] Steve Kean Thread (Poll reset after Stoke game)

[roverandout]

xlm, why shoudnt the first two games count? hes has a full-preaseason, on what planet would two competive games not count? dont count injuries because every manager has to deal with them, sir alex has major injuries, arsene wenger does but these guys still manage to put out teams that can win matches ( i know they have bigger squads but with better squads comes better players) come on son, get a grip.

[booth]

xlm, why shoudnt the first two games count? hes has a full-preaseason, on what planet would two competive games not count? dont count injuries because every manager has to deal with them, sir alex has major injuries, arsene wenger does but these guys still manage to put out teams that can win matches ( i know they have bigger squads but with better squads comes better players) come on son, get a grip.

This is why I don't buy that the defensive issues in the first match were not his fault.

He had a long time to replace Phil Jones, and along with that there was the chance Samba could leave. There were even issues with Givet, with the contract dispute. Any manager worth his salt would have strengthened that position with the question marks hanging over it.

Instead Myles Anderson was brought in. Chris Smalling Mark II.

But I suppose none of the above should count?

[Kelbo]

I didn't even say I wanted to keep Kean, just I think he should have more time to prove that he can do what he set out to with his team and his tactics.

If we haven't moved on then he should go.

They do for Rovers, but I don't think they should when judging Kean. Care to give a reason why they should? Pal.

You really believe he has tactics? well you are as bad as him then!!

[yoda]

Finally a reply which is to what I actually wrote...

I wasn't meaning that the first 2 games should be written off because the transfer window hadn't closed, just that was another factor to be taken into account. The owners to blame for us not having a full squad at the start of the season, not the manager. And having N'Zonzi and Hanley at the back with Dunn and Emerton in the middle of the park is hardly comparable to N'Zonzi being in the middle with Dann and Samba at the back is it? Hoilett's lack of much preseason was also clearly evident in the first couple of games, same with Nelsen against Villa, he wasn't fit but had to play because nobody else could play.

The first 2 games being written off is still of detriment to how Kean should be judged because he's now got a harder set of games to be judged on. It's unfortunate, but it's how it has to be.

I refuse to comment on Kean talking crap, because most manager do talk crap. Kean just spouts positive crap instead of complaining. It may be more embarrassing, but so what really? It doesn't change anything.

I don't really think the players look unfit (apart from the ones who've had limited preseasons), the number of injuries we're picking up is a major concern though.

I also don't think it would be too late if we left it. I honestly believe we have an above average squad. We probably need another striker and a utility player, but you'd be hard pressed to find a club in the league who is 100% happy with their squad (outside of the obvious). I think bringing in a new manager would be more of a risk. November is new manager time. If it is looking desperate before that then fine. But I think we're a long way from looking desperate.

Kean usurped the position of manager, he takes the responsibility

[Kelbo]

Finally a reply which is to what I actually wrote...

I wasn't meaning that the first 2 games should be written off because the transfer window hadn't closed, just that was another factor to be taken into account. The owners to blame for us not having a full squad at the start of the season, not the manager. And having N'Zonzi and Hanley at the back with Dunn and Emerton in the middle of the park is hardly comparable to N'Zonzi being in the middle with Dann and Samba at the back is it? Hoilett's lack of much preseason was also clearly evident in the first couple of games, same with Nelsen against Villa, he wasn't fit but had to play because nobody else could play.

The first 2 games being written off is still of detriment to how Kean should be judged because he's now got a harder set of games to be judged on. It's unfortunate, but it's how it has to be.

I refuse to comment on Kean talking crap, because most manager do talk crap. Kean just spouts positive crap instead of complaining. It may be more embarrassing, but so what really? It doesn't change anything.

I don't really think the players look unfit (apart from the ones who've had limited preseasons), the number of injuries we're picking up is a major concern though.

I also don't think it would be too late if we left it. I honestly believe we have an above average squad. We probably need another striker and a utility player, but you'd be hard pressed to find a club in the league who is 100% happy with their squad (outside of the obvious). I think bringing in a new manager would be more of a risk. November is new manager time. If it is looking desperate before that then fine. But I think we're a long way from looking desperate.

My son is a PE teacher and the first thing he said to me after the first game is, 'they are not up to speed, they are unfit""

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

This is why I don't buy that the defensive issues in the first match were not his fault.

He had a long time to replace Phil Jones, and along with that there was the chance Samba could leave. There were even issues with Givet, with the contract dispute. Any manager worth his salt would have strengthened that position with the question marks hanging over it.

Instead Myles Anderson was brought in. Chris Smalling Mark II.

But I suppose none of the above should count?

How much of that was Kean's fault - and how much the owners ? We know that the owners messed around in the transfer window - so how is it really Kean's fault ? He obviously identified the need for a centre back - or Dann wouldn't be playing for us now.

[booth]

My son is a PE teacher and the first thing he said to me after the first game is, 'they are not up to speed, they are unfit""

I don't think anyone needs any qualifications to see they aren't fit sadly.

[booth]

How much of that was Kean's fault - and how much the owners ? We know that the owners messed around in the transfer window - so how is it really Kean's fault ? He obviously identified the need for a centre back - or Dann wouldn't be playing for us now.

Because he's the manager so he carries the can. Unless he comes out, like any other manager with a sense of pride, and says that his hands are/were tied I will believe otherwise. As it is he came out at the beginning of the transfer window and told us we had a substantial transfer pot. That makes it his fault with the information he himself has passed on, and with the events that happened during the window.

Jones was sold and wasn't replaced before the season began. You ask how much of it is his fault? You could ask whether any of it is Keans fault. Whether he's picking the team, whether he chooses the suit he wears, whether he makes the substitutions, whether he gives the team talks, whether it's his transfer list. Whatever the answer to those questions, he shouldn't be the manager of Blackburn Rovers for reasons that shouldn't need pointing out.

[Billy Castell]

I can understand XLM's point about how injuries leading to Nzonzi being in defence is contributed to results in the first game or so, but surely the squad, and the 18 players picked should be flexible enough to change with such situations to an extent. That is to say that there should have been enough depth for a central defender to come on (unless the subs had been used) or for the team to adapt to a new formation mid match. Kean cannot be blamed for the injuries, but real managers can usually ride these blows.

As for the squad, the owners had been very involved in the process, but if Kean was any good, he'd have cadjoled and persuaded Venky's to pull their thumbs out of their bottom and got their act together. Instead he let them dither after targetting 180 players, then not following up any initial contact and bungling any mobves. A real manager would see what players are needed, gone to the owners, and not let them mess about with agents and carry on like they did. A real manager would have control or input (if you follow the 'continental way') on squad development.

November is far too late to get rid of Kean. It would be likely that we'd have as few as 6-10 points and will be adrift with a demoralised and disinterested squad.

[John]

Regarding the first game, it was only Wolves at home, fair enough if we were playing a top half team.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Because he's the manager so he carries the can. Unless he comes out, like any other manager with a sense of pride, and says that his hands are/were tied I will believe otherwise. As it is he came out at the beginning of the transfer window and told us we had a substantial transfer pot. That makes it his fault with the information he himself has passed on, and with the events that happened during the window.

Jones was sold and wasn't replaced before the season began. You ask how much of it is his fault? You could ask whether any of it is Keans fault. Whether he's picking the team, whether he chooses the suit he wears, whether he makes the substitutions, whether he gives the team talks, whether it's his transfer list. Whatever the answer to those questions, he shouldn't be the manager of Blackburn Rovers for reasons that shouldn't need pointing out.

Kean said from the start - he had a list which he had given to the owners. The fact that he didn't try to blame the owners when things obviously went pear shaped - I think does him great credit.

By your logic - Big Sam not having any money to spend was his own fault !

I am afraid you just confirm my feeling, echoed by the odd few brave enough to say so - that reasoned argument around Kean just isn't possible at the moment.

P.S. I have already said that Kean should be replaced - providing their is a decent manager lined up to take his place.

[Mercer]

I hope those eternal optimists advocating giving Kean further time so that we could defeat a 'weakened' Arsenal watched their CL match tonight in Germany.

A full strength Rovers' team with Kean in charge against that Arsenal team will have two chances, slim and none. A weakened Rovers' team with injuries to Samba, Dunn etc will have nil chance.

Saturday could be a long afternoon for all.

[Kelbo]

I don't think anyone needs any qualifications to see they aren't fit sadly.

I know, just replying to a comment which says they were fit!!!

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I hope those eternal optimists advocating giving Kean further time so that we could defeat a 'weakened' Arsenal watched their CL match tonight in Germany.

A full strength Rovers' team with Kean in charge against that Arsenal team will have two chances, slim and none. A weakened Rovers' team with injuries to Samba, Dunn etc will have nil chance.

Saturday could be a long afternoon for all.

Don't advocate more time - unless they don't have a manager lined up.

However - did you rate our chances against the champions last year ?

[booth]

I am afraid you just confirm my feeling, echoed by the odd few brave enough to say so - that reasoned argument around Kean just isn't possible at the moment.

But you aren't providing a reasoned argument. You're defending Kean for the sake of it.

By your logic - Big Sam not having any money to spend was his own fault !

Sam came out on several occasions and explained the situation at the club. And besides that at no point did he ever say we had a substantial amount of money building up the expectations of the fan base. So that's not by my logic at all.

Kean said from the start - he had a list which he had given to the owners. The fact that he didn't try to blame the owners when things obviously went pear shaped - I think does him great credit.

How does that do him credit? He could have explained the situation without trashing Venky's in the process. As it is, and with the information we know the problems lie at his door. Something he didn't care about enough to rectify because he doesn't care about keeping the fans onside, he's more interested in staying onside with Venky's. Something that was highlighted in his Sky Sports interview after last weekends game.

What else did he say at the start of the window? Substantial monies available.

Oh but hang on I've got it wrong... We did sign a central defender, Myles Anderson, a player that Kean himself vouched for. What's your reasoned argument for that then?

P.S. I have already said that Kean should be replaced - providing their is a decent manager lined up to take his place.

So what the Jesus H Corbett are you on about then?

We may as well be arguing about Jammie Dodgers vs Hob Nobs.

For the record it's a close call but I vote Jammies. Now don't go telling me that's unfair because McVities are holding back the jam.

I know, just replying to a comment which says they were fit!!!

Wasn't having a go, just reinforcing your point.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

How does that do him credit? He could have explained the situation without trashing Venky's in the process. As it is, and with the information we know the problems lie at his door. Something he didn't care about enough to rectify because he doesn't care about keeping the fans onside, he's more interested in staying onside with Venky's. Something that was highlighted in his Sky Sports interview after last weekends game.

What else did he say at the start of the window? Substantial monies available.

Oh but hang on I've got it wrong... We did sign a central defender, Myles Anderson, a player that Kean himself vouched for. What's your reasoned argument for that then?

Re first point - how would he have explained the mess going on a Venky's without turning the fans even more against the owners ?

Yes he did start at the start of the window by saying we had substantial funds - because of talks he had with the owners.

Myles Anderson - hmm .. thought he was a left back. Reasoned argument Julio Santa Cruz. Alternatively - owners rubber stamped signing of Anderson - no manager would come out and say "don't actually rate him - owners did it as a favour"

All because I don't blame Kean for everything wrong in the world doesn't mean I can't choose between hob nobs and jammie dodgers. I just argue that it isn't all black and white - i.e. there are also toffee dodgers to consider

[philipl]

Sorry but in this instance, sadly you are wasting your time on reasoning and trying to see a balanced viewpoint.

I am absolutely convinced that Kean has utterly poisoned our club and that there are zero redeeming features.

[FourLaneBlue]

How much of that was Kean's fault - and how much the owners ? We know that the owners messed around in the transfer window - so how is it really Kean's fault ? He obviously identified the need for a centre back - or Dann wouldn't be playing for us now.

Whose faults was it? Who cares?

It isn't his transfer dealing that is the problem. Rather, it is his utterly inability to win football matches.

I don't particuarly dislike the man. I just know that whatever he is, a Premiership-quality football manager is not it.

Sack, before it's too late and we can still save our season.

[booth]

Re first point - how would he have explained the mess going on a Venky's without turning the fans even more against the owners ?

By not shooting his wad at the beginning by saying we had plenty of money.

Why should he care that he's turning the fans against the owners when the owners weren't supporting him financially? He should have just explained that when the funds were available to him, he would sign a replacement. How do you think Dalglish would have handled this? Or Souness? Or Hughes? Or even Don Mackay? Do you think their mouths would have ran away with them?

Yes he did start at the start of the window by saying we had substantial funds - because of talks he had with the owners.

Do you think this was a clever thing to do all things considered?

Myles Anderson - hmm .. thought he was a left back. Reasoned argument Julio Santa Cruz. Alternatively - owners rubber stamped signing of Anderson - no manager would come out and say "don't actually rate him - owners did it as a favour"

He needn't have said anything at all. As it is, he's carrying the can for it because he's come out and blessed it. I don't remember the same happening with Ince/Julio, or Ince saying that he was the next Jermaine Defoe.

That said it's a funny coincidence how our two poorest managers in recent times have signed players "against their will."

Myles Anderson is supposed to be able to play in the centre or on the left.

All because I don't blame Kean for everything wrong in the world doesn't mean I can't choose between hob nobs and jammie dodgers. I just argue that it isn't all black and white - i.e. there are also toffee dodgers to consider

I don't blame him for everything.

Defend him that he didn't cause 9/11, defend him that he wasn't the cause of Nazi Germany, defend him because it's not his fault that a common cold cure hasn't yet been discovered.

However don't try to make out that he has some qualities as a football manager. You will just make yourself look as daft as someone who thinks toffee dodgers are in any way considerable in a Jammie Dodgers/Hob Nobs biscuit battle.

[XLM]

@booth and a fair few others:-

You aren't contributing anything, no opinion, you're just saying; he's crap, he's crap, he's crap. This is why for the most part this board isn't worth posting on.

[booth]

@booth and a fair few others:-

You aren't contributing anything, no opinion, you're just saying; he's crap, he's crap, he's crap. This is why for the most part this board isn't worth posting on.

Great contribution XLM.

The Dingles are loving this btw. Just had this sent to me.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=210520578966620&set=t.100000260388989&type=3&theater

[roverandout]

the pro-steve kean camp can never be turned, no matter what, so its pointless even trying to reason with them, who are the people who are boosting the 'give kean more time' votes? are they just on a wind-up?

[FourLaneBlue]

@booth and a fair few others:-

You aren't contributing anything, no opinion, you're just saying; he's crap, he's crap, he's crap. This is why for the most part this board isn't worth posting on.

That's because it has gone past the realms of argument.

Kean's record is indefensible. Those who try just make themselves look stupid because, let's face it, defending 2 wins in 18 games is a pretty damn stupid thing to do!

Just sack Kean. Maybe then we can have our Rovers back.

[Kennys Magic Hat]

Whatever happens, Kean is fighting a losing battle with our 'fans'. Even if we win the next 3 games 3-0 then there'll be people who will find negatives in that.

He's got a terrible record overall since he took over yes, but he took over in very difficult circumstances and despite all that said we were doomed and would definitely go down, we stayed up with 4 excellent results when it really mattered. Yet still people were moaning because we didnt try to win against Utd at home after they equalised, we didn't beat West Ham and we conceded 2 goals in the 2nd half against Wolves.

These same people are now the ones trying to organise a major protest after Keans first game after the transfer window when he actually managed to get a credible result at a difficult away ground, despite losing important players to injury during the match and carrying several others as they couldnt be subbed!

We did have a shocking period under Kean where we didn't win for 10 games but Sunderland also had a similar run of results with a vastly more experienced Steve Bruce in charge. Its the Premier League and its so hard to get results. We only got results under Allardyce due to the style of football he played which killed the game and the entertainment value of any game we played in, it was absolutely terrible to watch. At least now under Kean we try to keep the ball on the floor and seem to have a much more attacking philosophy.

To sack Kean after 4 games like most are suggesting is ridiculous. Get behind the team and give him a chance to prove his worth like he did in the last few games of last season. If there's no improvement in the next few games, then it will be time for him to go and with over 3/4 of the season left there will be plenty of games left to pull it back.

[roverandout]

xlm, we are saying more than 'hes crap, crap, crap' we are putting arguments forward to why hes crap. Lies to the press, inept performances week in, week out, nearly getting us relegated and starting the season off, bottom. We are not just a bunch of schoolkids ganging up on the school nerd, we are making reasoned arguments, i think your the one who is attention seeking.

kenny, people have been saying give him 4 more games, 5 more games, 6 more games, since he took over, what makes you think he will all of a sudden, become a good manager? and its not about just 4 games, he has had 27 games and done poorly, he took us from midtable into near relegation and it was only because of the incompetence and inconsistency of the teams below us that we stayed up. what possible reason do people have to think things are going to be any different to the last 9 months?