[Archived] Steve Kean Thread (Poll reset after Stoke game)

[tony gale's mic]

Ok - IMO City match is key because if we get soundly beaten it may force our owners hands. A little like getting beat 7-1 by United would have influenced their decisions around Sam (though obviously rumour has it that there was far more at work on that one). There is also a two week gap before the next match.

The key games - I agree - but you could argue over many things - injuries for Wolves and Villa - unlucky against Everton. Just plain poor against Newcastle. However - if we sacked managers based on away record Sam would have been sacked prior to the Venky's eventually doing it.

"one bad performance" - Everton - fair performance, Arsenal - fair performance - Orient - fair performance, Newcastle - poor performance. Things had been improving - even under Sam we had similar runs.

IMO he should probably go - but I don't think you can have a go at people just because they think he should have more time. I can appreciate where they are coming from - personally I just don't feel he will sort out the basic tactical problems within the team no matter how much time he is given - and that is my biggest concern.

I think I can seriously question the judgement of anyone who thinks Steve Kean should be given more time. And with good reason. If that constitutes "having a go", then so be it.

Maybe I misinterpreted your point about the City game - I thought you'd said it's a strong factor into whether he should be sacked, and I disagreed for the reasons I said. If you're saying it's a strong factor as to whether he will be sacked (ie if we get a hammering), then I see your point.

It's not "one bad performance". Kean's reign started in December. He took over a team which had top 10 form over the previous two calendar years. He spent plenty of money (by our standards) in January on both wages for loans and transfer fees. He almost led us to relegation. Let's end this argument about Kean's reign suddenly starting this season. It didn't.

Wolves, Villa, Newcastle and Fulham were all poor performances. Arsenal was a good second half performance. Everton was a good performance. We've had a pretty easy start to the season fixturewise too. A few good performances will happen, it means nothing.

Totally irrelevant point about Sam having similar runs. Every manager has runs of poor form, but Sam never got 26 points from 27 games. And Sam had plenty of extended runs of pretty good form too. Kean hasn't (4 games at the end of last season isn't enough).

Anyone who thinks Kean should be given more time isn't being sensible. Frankly they're out of their mind.

[dave birch]

I know I'm going to regret this, but here goes:

The season was always likely to start this way.(hindsight) Surely everyone could see this coming? (again, hindsight) Sure, Kean could have done well after a pre season under his belt,(he should have done, but didn't) just like Jason Roberts could score a hat trick against City (we'll see, but highly unlikely), but by far the most likely outcome was that he'd continue his poor managerial record into this season (this bit you are probably right on, but it does include a bit of hindsight).

Crucially, by giving Kean more time, it has meant his eventual replacement will be working with someone else's team (conjecture) and will be hamstrung by low morale (assumption) and a poor points tally. They'll have far less time to save Rovers. Kean never deserved the chance to manage Blackburn Rovers and certainly didn't deserve more time after almost getting us relegated this season (so we're down already are we?). So why were some people so adamant we should give it him? (give him what?)

Those who were adamant that Kean should be given more time often painted themselves as the voice of reason when they were anything but.

After being appointed, he deserved a chance, he blew it. Get rid. Full stop.

[den]

I think a lot of it was foresight Dave, based on what we had already seen.

[dave birch]

I think a lot of it was foresight Dave, based on what we had already seen.

Would agree for this season, Den, but at the start of his tenure, no one would have known how it would pan out.

It "could" have been the opposite of what we are witnessing.

So, your "foresight" is actually "hindsight".

[tony gale's mic]

The season was always likely to start this way.(hindsight) Surely everyone could see this coming? (again, hindsight) Sure, Kean could have done well after a pre season under his belt,(he should have done, but didn't) just like Jason Roberts could score a hat trick against City (we'll see, but highly unlikely), but by far the most likely outcome was that he'd continue his poor managerial record into this season (this bit you are probably right on, but it does include a bit of hindsight).

Crucially, by giving Kean more time, it has meant his eventual replacement will be working with someone else's team (conjecture) and will be hamstrung by low morale (assumption) and a poor points tally. They'll have far less time to save Rovers. Kean never deserved the chance to manage Blackburn Rovers and certainly didn't deserve more time after almost getting us relegated this season (so we're down already are we?). So why were some people so adamant we should give it him? (give him what?)

Those who were adamant that Kean should be given more time often painted themselves as the voice of reason when they were anything but.

Hindsight?? :lol:

Plenty of us foresaw this from day one, let alone from the start of this season. That's the exact opposite of hindsight. Just like plenty of us foresaw Ince was going to be bad for the club and Sam was going to be good for the club.

It WILL be someone else's team. That's not conjecture. The team will be full of players he hasn't signed and I doubt how much he will have to spend this January given that we ended up signing a few. At least if we'd appointed someone new in summer he could've brought a few of his own players in.

Morale WILL be lower than at the start of the season. It stands to reason that a team getting beaten most weeks will drop their collective morale.

I meant "almost getting us relegated last season", that was an error, and the "it" at the end refers to time, which I'm pretty sure everyone else got.

[47er]

Would agree for this season, Den, but at the start of his tenure, no one would have known how it would pan out.

It "could" have been the opposite of what we are witnessing.

So, your "foresight" is actually "hindsight".

Axiomatic Dave--nobody can "know" the future but plenty of us had a pretty good guesstimate! Based on what we knew it wasn't hard.

[tony gale's mic]

Would agree for this season, Den, but at the start of his tenure, no one would have known how it would pan out.

It "could" have been the opposite of what we are witnessing.

So, your "foresight" is actually "hindsight".

Firstly my post was specifically referring to this summer gone by, so the start of the tenure bit doesn't apply to my post anyway. It was foresight this summer to think he wouldn't do well this season based on his results last season. It didn't require a great deal of foresight, but clearly those who wanted him to have more time this season were lacking even that.

However since a few of us have been opposed to him from the start...

The guy had no managerial experience. Zero. Zilch.

The Rovers managers job was always going to be a difficult one with a technically limited team and not much in the way of funds.

When Charlton appointed Les Reed back in the day, everyone knew it was a mistake from day one. Ditto Shearer at Newcastle.

[broadsword]

Would agree for this season, Den, but at the start of his tenure, no one would have known how it would pan out.

It "could" have been the opposite of what we are witnessing.

So, your "foresight" is actually "hindsight".

No, it isn't.

No-one knew for sure how it would pan out, but they had a pretty good idea of how it would pan out. You didn't have to be mystic meg to see the portents weren't good.

Hindsight is looking backwards, so you can't look backwards at something that has yet to happen.

A lot of people said this would end in tears, they were told they were only saying that in case things went wrong so they could tell everyone they said as much. Or they were told they were only happy when they were miserable. Or that they were pre-judging, or that they had an agenda.

I took loads of flak, but I stand by the opinion I've had from day 1, it's not wavered. To be honest, I'm a bit hacked off at some of the nonense I had to endure.

You didn't have to be mystic meg to see this would all end in tears. We're on a downward trajectory and it will take some doing to put us back on the right course again. Only when we have owners who have humility, sound judgement in football matters, and the right motive for ownership will we start to get back to much-needed stability. Everything else in the meantime is just window-dressing.

[Mercer]

The season was always likely to start this way. Surely everyone could see this coming? Sure, Kean could have done well after a pre season under his belt, just like Jason Roberts could score a hat trick against City, but by far the most likely outcome was that he'd continue his poor managerial record into this season.

Crucially, by giving Kean more time, it has meant his eventual replacement will be working with someone else's team and will be hamstrung by low morale and a poor points tally. They'll have far less time to save Rovers. Kean never deserved the chance to manage Blackburn Rovers and certainly didn't deserve more time after almost getting us relegated this season. So why were some people so adamant we should give it him?

Those who were adamant that Kean should be given more time often painted themselves as the voice of reason when they were anything but.

Very, very true.

He deserves nothing.

[chris]

Axiomatic Dave--nobody can "know" the future but plenty of us had a pretty good guesstimate! Based on what we knew it wasn't hard.

People have this obsession with over committing, I hate the fact kean got the job, he did a horrible job last season, I thoughts most his signings were luxury players (currently at least).

But everytime we win a group of people come out saying "I told you so" and when we lose its "I told you so".

The truth is Kean probably has to prove himself useless (without Sam's point to save him).

Kean might go bottom this weekend, that might be enough.

[dave birch]

Axiomatic Dave--nobody can "know" the future but plenty of us had a pretty good guesstimate! Based on what we knew it wasn't hard.

Care to "guesstimate" the lottery numbers this weekend? Same thing.

Look, I'm not defending Kean, I too want him gone, but to make some of the comments (in hindsight) are questionable.

The fact is, when Kean was appointed it would have been a 50/50 guess as to whether he was going to be "successful", and that could have been applied to any manager we appointed. As time went on, yes, it became apparent he was, to put it politely, crap.

But don't tell me, in all honesty, you knew he was going to be a failure. That would have come, increasingly, in the games following his appointment.

[T4E]

I've voted to give him more time and by that I mean the next 4 games.

I think we'll be able to see the level of fight and character in the team in the home games against City and Spurs. Wins are unlikely but if there's no effort or heart either it will be telling.

Why do people keep talking about "heart", "fight" and "character"? It means nothing!! It's been said from many sources that the players are behind the manager. He hasn't "lost the dressing room" or any of those other cliches - yet we are displaying relegation form and have been doing so since he took over.

I doesn't matter if Chris Samba loves him, Scott Dann wants to play for him, if Yakubu tells Sky Sports he's a great manager, Salgado wants him to style his hair or Jason Roberts wants him to adopt him - Steve Kean is not getting these players winning football matches.

Forget all the psychological crap - he just aint good enough.

[den]

Would agree for this season, Den, but at the start of his tenure, no one would have known how it would pan out.

It "could" have been the opposite of what we are witnessing.

So, your "foresight" is actually "hindsight".

I was talking about this season Dave. We saw last season how he had taken a group of players that were comfortably mid table, and almost got them relegated. So it wasn't really the players that changed after his appointment last November, it was the teams performances.

Some fans believed that with his own signings this summer [not that he didn't make signings in January remember], things could change for the better. That though, is ignoring his previous inability to organise a squad into an effective unit.

Not much hindsight involved there Dave.

Just seen your post above. Seems as though were talking about different things.

[dave birch]

No, it isn't.

No-one knew for sure how it would pan out, but they had a pretty good idea of how it would pan out. You didn't have to be mystic meg to see the portents weren't good.

Hindsight is looking backwards, so you can't look backwards at something that has yet to happen.

A lot of people said this would end in tears, they were told they were only saying that in case things went wrong so they could tell everyone they said as much. Or they were told they were only happy when they were miserable. Or that they were pre-judging, or that they had an agenda.

I took loads of flak, but I stand by the opinion I've had from day 1, it's not wavered. To be honest, I'm a bit hacked off at some of the nonense I had to endure.

You didn't have to be mystic meg to see this would all end in tears. We're on a downward trajectory and it will take some doing to put us back on the right course again. Only when we have owners who have humility, sound judgement in football matters, and the right motive for ownership will we start to get back to much-needed stability. Everything else in the meantime is just window-dressing.

Bryan, you'll have a pretty good idea of this weekends lottery numbers then.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but the point I'm making is that at the time of his appointment no one could have predicted with certainty that he would be a success or a failure. That is where the hindsight is coming in.

I was talking about this season Dave. We saw last season how he had taken a group of players that were comfortably mid table, and almost got them relegated. So it wasn't really the players that changed after his appointment last November, it was the teams performances.

Some fans believed that with his own signings this summer [not that he didn't make signings in January remember], things could change for the better. That though, is ignoring his previous inability to organise a squad into an effective unit.

Not much hindsight involved there Dave.

So we've all got this thing about talking about this season. Very convenient lads, but too late. If you want to talk about this season, be specific.

Yep he's got to go, yep, he's not done well, but let everyone know what the basis of your argument is.

[tony gale's mic]

Dave, the "lottery numbers" argument is a terrible, terrible argument.

The lottery numbers are picked entirely at random.

Success in a football management job isn't random at all.

It's based on a number of things including past experience (Kean had zero), abilities (Kean had displayed zero by virtue of never having been a manager), and managers get better with experience, quality of the squad relative to the rest of the league (not great), money to spend (not a huge amount) etc etc.

If Mourinho were to take charge of Rovers tomorrow, do you think his chances of success as compared to Kean would be identical to the chances of the number 24 appearing as compared to the number 49 on the lottery?

If you're going to try and make arguments try and use a bit of logic.

[den]

So we've all got this thing about talking about this season. Very convenient lads, but too late. If you want to talk about this season, be specific.

Yep he's got to go, yep, he's not done well, but let everyone know what the basis of your argument is.

You'll have to explain that again to me Dave?

[dave birch]

You'll have to explain that again to me Dave?

All my comments, Den, have been made in the context of Kean's tenture, from his initial appointment.

That enough?

[John]

Kean remaining positive ahead of the City match.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Kean is the sort of manager that would beat a team like City, lose the next four games, win another game keeping him in the job but then lose the next four. It's like a perpetual cycle of rubbishness with him, and one that would see us almost certainly go down.

I have no problem with fans saying they hope we get smashed 6 or 7-0 at the weekend, in fact nearly every Rovers fan I have spoken to want us to get beat heavily in order to force a change of manager. I have to agree with them, Kean most likely would have gone if Arsenal had smashed us instead we got the flukey win giving him more time to try and relegate the club. Let's hope City force Venky's hand this weekend in order to save the club from the abyss.

[dave birch]

Kean is the sort of manager that would beat a team like City, lose the next four games, win another game keeping him in the job but then lose the next four. It's like a perpetual cycle of rubbishness with him, and one that would see us almost certainly go down.

I have no problem with fans saying they hope we get smashed 6 or 7-0 at the weekend, in fact nearly every Rovers fan I have spoken to want us to get beat heavily in order to force a change of manager. I have to agree with them, Kean most likely would have gone if Arsenal had smashed us instead we got the flukey win giving him more time to try and relegate the club. Let's hope City force Venky's hand this weekend in order to save the club from the abyss.

My thoughts and hopes too RVR

[chris]

Kean is the sort of manager that would beat a team like City, lose the next four games, win another game keeping him in the job but then lose the next four. It's like a perpetual cycle of rubbishness with him, and one that would see us almost certainly go down.

very true, he has a habit that just when you think he is finished he pulls off a result.

[den]

All my comments, Den, have been made in the context of Kean's tenture, from his initial appointment.

That enough?

These are TGM's comments - with your reply in brackets, which are the comments I'm referring to Dave. Plainly we're talking about this season?:

"The season was always likely to start this way.(hindsight) Surely everyone could see this coming? (again, hindsight)"

Odd that we're both arguing that he has to go, but you seem to be in denial that others saw it coming.

[broadsword]

Bryan, you'll have a pretty good idea of this weekends lottery numbers then.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but the point I'm making is that at the time of his appointment no one could have predicted with certainty that he would be a success or a failure. That is where the hindsight is coming in.

Did I know with certainty that his appointment would be a disaster? No, of course not.

Did I think that binning an experienced manager who was a safe pair of hands and replacing him with the first team coach who was a virtual unknown and whose track record wasn't anything to speak of ... did I think that was a bad idea? YES.

There's no historical revisionism of my opinion going on here (presumably what you mean by "hindsight"). I had a bad feeling about it from day 1.

However, Kean is just a symptom of the problem. Until Venky's have had their fill and leave the club, we're in trouble.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

It's not "one bad performance". Kean's reign started in December. He took over a team which had top 10 form over the previous two calendar years. He spent plenty of money (by our standards) in January on both wages for loans and transfer fees. He almost led us to relegation. Let's end this argument about Kean's reign suddenly starting this season. It didn't.

Totally irrelevant point about Sam having similar runs. Every manager has runs of poor form, but Sam never got 26 points from 27 games. And Sam had plenty of extended runs of pretty good form too. Kean hasn't (4 games at the end of last season isn't enough).

No other manager in all the years I have been watching Rovers have had to put up with the turmoil that has enveloped the club since the take over. Even the summer transfer window was a farce caused by behind the scenes issues. Even an experienced manager would have struggled with what Kean has had to cope with. Its not a good enough reason to keep him - but IMO he has been severely hampered by the inexperience of the owners (as well as his own inexperience).

[tony gale's mic]

No other manager in all the years I have been watching Rovers have had to put up with the turmoil that has enveloped the club since the take over. Even the summer transfer window was a farce caused by behind the scenes issues. Even an experienced manager would have struggled with what Kean has had to cope with. Its not a good enough reason to keep him - but IMO he has been severely hampered by the inexperience of the owners (as well as his own inexperience).

He wouldn't have got a managers job without owners inexperience and behind the scenes issues.

No manager in recent years at Rovers has had a net transfer budget like the one he recieved in January.

And the behind the scenes issues shouldn't have affected his management that much last season, and although the transfer window had some turmoil he still ended up having a fair amount to spend, and many of the acquisitions he made were ones he'd wanted from earlier in the summer too.

The behind the scenes issues are precisely the reason why we desperately needed a steady set of hands as manager, not a total novice. It should have been even more of a reason to have him out of a job.