[Archived] Steve Kean Thread (Poll reset after Stoke game)

[matty1875]

We've played 8 games this season, so can we sack him now?

I am talking league game's which I think the majority of people base his record on, if we included the cup then he would be P 8, W 3, L4, D1, Win % 37.5%, for Kean that is an epic win %!!

[tony gale's mic]

How can my post defeat its point when its saying Kean should not even be allowed the same time Kidd, Ince, Hodgson or Harford, they are examples of bad manager given more time then Matty asked for.

Matty1875 has said he is only giving Kean 7 games BECAUSE of his bad record, which I think is fair.

What was Hodgsons record starting 1997, its probably close to Kean.

Harford came 7th no europe and to take over a team from 1st place in 1995 and be bottom in 1996 is probably an achievement that will never be reproduced.

Kidd should have never been given 14 games.

I bought up Ince just to show consistency that Rovers managers have been given over 10 no matter how bad they have been and Matty1875 is only willing to offer 7 games.

But they're all totally diffferent situations with the exception of Kidd.

Hodgson still had a great career behind him. Like Wenger but to not quite the same extent. Managers who have had a bad run but who have achieved good things obviously deserve more time.

Out title winning team was probably greater than the sum of its parts, especially when you look at the likes of Ripley, Wilcox, Sherwood, Kenna, Pearce, Atkins who never achieved anything like the same level before or afterwards. We should have done better than 7th under Harford but it was down to Kenny's magic that we won the title that season. Of course Shearer's goals played a huge part but then he scored 31 league goals under Harford too. So again, Harford at least didnt have a disastrous season the season before.

Kidd should have been fired the day we got relegated. Had he been sacked five games into the season afterwards and replaced with a permanent manager, we might have gone up that season rather than having to wait another season.

[chris]

But they're all totally diffferent situations with the exception of Kidd.

Hodgson still had a great career behind him. Like Wenger but to not quite the same extent. Managers who have had a bad run but who have achieved good things obviously deserve more time.

Out title winning team was probably greater than the sum of its parts, especially when you look at the likes of Ripley, Wilcox, Sherwood, Kenna, Pearce, Atkins who never achieved anything like the same level before or afterwards. We should have done better than 7th under Harford but it was down to Kenny's magic that we won the title that season. Of course Shearer's goals played a huge part but then he scored 31 league goals under Harford too. So again, Harford at least didnt have a disastrous season the season before.

Kidd should have been fired the day we got relegated. Had he been sacked five games into the season afterwards and replaced with a permanent manager, we might have gone up that season rather than having to wait another season.

Well Kenny's player are what made Hodgsons success his horrible signings HIS team destoryed him:

Here is Hodgson record as of 1997 jan:

Jan to May:

LWDLLWLLWLLLLDWLW

LOSES 10

WINS: 5

DRAWS: 2

Win Percentage: 29%

August to November

LOSES: 10

WINS: 2

DRAWS: 4

Win Percentage: 12.5%

Aug to Nov: DLWLLLLDDWLLDLLL

Hodgson got a lot of games then 7 (Europe added carling cup removed)

You still think he deserved all them games?

[den]

So, we have posters who wanted Allardyce sacked based not on results, but performances. We now seem to have some of these same people quite prepared to ignore the performances over the past ten months under Kean, but desperately hoping that he can get results over the next few games.

How very odd.

.

[tony gale's mic]

Hodgson was someone who'd taken Switzerland to number 3 in the FIFA Rankings and who'd done a decent job at Inter, in addition to a great record with Malmo (9 domestic trophies) and did the domestic double with Copenhagen. He'd proved himself as a manager and proved himself as someone who was capable of turning things round, even though he didn't in the end.

So yes, he deserved a bit of time at the start of the season to put things right. Certainly more than someone who had achieved nothing in their managerial career. This is just basic logic and would apply to a similar situation in a lot of other jobs, not just football management.

Wenger got 16 points from 16 games with Arsenal from the Carling Cup Final last season till the Rovers game. At a club like Arsenal with big four expectations this would have definitely got the sack, but his past record is what saved him.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

You're part of the problem too.

I read all of his points. They were awful, and showed a lack of insight into football, a lack of logic, a lack of sense. Just like yours.

The previous season can't just be forgotten though, can it? Previous record is a MASSIVE factor when it comes to judging a managers poor form. It provides an invaluable indicator as to whether this is poor form. I've already said this coming bit, but let me guess, you didn't bother reading it?

Like I said, Wenger didn't get sacked despite getting 16 points from 16 games because of his previous record. Sam quite rightly didn't get sacked after the poor run he had, because of his previous record. We all knew they both had it in them to turn it round (though whether Wenger will or not remains to be seen). So no, to totally forget the previous season goes against all footballing logic, and goes against what most clubs would rationally do.

As has been said already, the Arsenal win was as undeserved as the Everton loss. They actually put the ball in the net more times than we did.

We had a team which was top ten. In terms of results. Over two years. The methods Sam used to achieve that wre entirely justified - no club has had sustained top half success on a budget in the last ten or so years WITHOUT playing unattractive football.

I'm embarassed you support the same team as me.

Football is all about opinions - and football is anything but logical.

We had one manager that only won one game in 12 - including six defeats on the trot - but fortunately didn't get sacked.

He has his opinion - you have yours - only time will tell who is correct.

IMO the owners were right to give Kean a chance - we could start to see something that resembled a team pattern at the end of last season - and the performances were improving. This season we have gone backwards - and the flaws in the tactics that were evident last season have re-emerged - and if anything gone worse. I still hope he turns it around - not for him, but the club - but I can't see it - and with a two week break coming up - now is the ideal time to get in an experienced manager.

[broadsword]

So, we have posters who wanted Allardyce sacked based not on results, but performances. We now seem to have some of these same people ignoring the performances over the past ten months under Kean, but desperately hoping that he can get results over the next few games.

How very odd.

Think it's called "desperation".

It's rollocks, if he had anything about him as a manager it would've come to the fore by now. All this "give him more time", "it's his own team now, but they need to bed in" stuff is just a sideshow.

I think some people are follong themselves because they don't want to admit how bad it is. But with owners who don't know what they're doing, and have the wrong motivations, I think we'll have cast-iron proof of just how bad things are, in the fullness of time.

[Majiball]

I am talking league game's which I think the majority of people base his record on, if we included the cup then he would be P 8, W 3, L4, D4, Win % 37.5%, for Kean that is an epic win %!!

W3 L4 D4 adds up to 8 games does it?

But thanks for your specificity over games that can be counted.

[chris]

Hodgson was someone who'd taken Switzerland to number 3 in the FIFA Rankings and who'd done a decent job at Inter, in addition to a great record with Malmo (9 domestic trophies) and did the domestic double with Copenhagen. He'd proved himself as a manager and proved himself as someone who was capable of turning things round, even though he didn't in the end.

So yes, he deserved a bit of time at the start of the season to put things right. Certainly more than someone who had achieved nothing in their managerial career. This is just basic logic and would apply to a similar situation in a lot of other jobs, not just football management.

Wenger got 16 points from 16 games with Arsenal from the Carling Cup Final last season till the Rovers game. At a club like Arsenal with big four expectations this would have definitely got the sack, but his past record is what saved him.

A major reason Hodgson got more time was because he wasted sh1t loads of money on completely crap players we probably talking 30 million.

Thats my point that you can't use Kean should have been sacked after zero games because sadly he was not and he did spend money, he did have a pre-season, these are his players, he was the manager for the opening game rightly or wrongly.

These are contributing factors to him having to get a small amount of time, even if you strongly believe he is useless.

I knew Hodgson was useless after he signed that idiot Dailly for 5.4 million but he didn't get sacked. I can go on about how useless Hodgson was.

[tony gale's mic]

Football is all about opinions - and football is anything but logical.

We had one manager that only won one game in 12 - including six defeats on the trot - but fortunately didn't get sacked.

He has his opinion - you have yours - only time will tell who is correct.

IMO the owners were right to give Kean a chance - we could start to see something that resembled a team pattern at the end of last season - and the performances were improving. This season we have gone backwards - and the flaws in the tactics that were evident last season have re-emerged - and if anything gone worse. I still hope he turns it around - not for him, but the club - but I can't see it - and with a two week break coming up - now is the ideal time to get in an experienced manager.

And for the millionth time that manager had achieved lots in his career before, had done very well previously for us, and had the experience and the managerial ability to get us out of the mess. Anyone with any sense never seriously called for Sam's head (though I wouldve started to ask the question had the run gone on for a few more games) because they realised this. Like I've said plenty of times, look at Wenger's recent form at Arsenal as an example. Poor form is always judged in the context of a manager's overall record. Always. Equally, same with the brief decent period at the end of last season that you mentioned.

You're comparing two completely different situations.

I think it's next to impossible he'll turn it round. What would be catastrophic for the club is if another brief false dawn arrives and it keeps him in the job for another couple of months of poor results.

The owners were idiotic to appoint him in the first place and idiotic to persist with him over the summer. What happened at the end of the season was a brief run of four games. One of them we were superb against Man United yes. One of them we were very lucky not to lose away at the worst team in the division. One of them we beat a Bolton side with the worst (?) away record in the league. And one we had a great first half against Wolves before falling away in the second half.

Out of those four games, I count one and a half good performances, one OK performance and one and a half poor performances (the game at West Ham and the second half against Wolves). It makes no sense that this would be enough to keep a man in a difficult job with no managerial pedigree and who'd done an awful job previously.

To a lot of us, our record at the start of this season has been utterly predictable. It's only certain people who seem surprised that a manager with 22 points from 21 games last season is starting in a broadly similar fashion.

[Roversider]

:

If you're a Rovers fan who wants to give Kean more time, right now you're frankly part of the problem.

Interesting thought that. I did want to give Kean more time, but I refuse to vote as I am tired of the constant polling of opinion. I would be happier to see a poll from Pune on the matter. So am I now no longer part of the problem? Why do you judge any fan as being part of the problem because they don't fully share your views. Nothing like a zealot to believe that an inability to see other opinions is the best way to persuade others to their cause.

Kean is on shaky ground because of results, I for one don't hold with the moral high ground adopted by some that he should go because of his drink-driving conviction or his comment about morons. If he has a string of results now (starting with City) he will survive. Likewise a beating on Saturday and no change to the team fortunes and he should go. Personally I would prefer the former not because I love Steve Kean but I love Rovers more and wins are what we need now.

[tony gale's mic]

Interesting thought that. I did want to give Kean more time, but I refuse to vote as I am tired of the constant polling of opinion. I would be happier to see a poll from Pune on the matter. So am I now no longer part of the problem? Why do you judge any fan as being part of the problem because they don't fully share your views. Nothing like a zealot to believe that an inability to see other opinions is the best way to persuade others to their cause.

Kean is on shaky ground because of results, I for one don't hold with the moral high ground adopted by some that he should go because of his drink-driving conviction or his comment about morons. If he has a string of results now (starting with City) he will survive. Likewise a beating on Saturday and no change to the team fortunes and he should go. Personally I would prefer the former not because I love Steve Kean but I love Rovers more and wins are what we need now.

I've already explained that comment and stand by it.

If I someone tried to offer the opinion that Keith Andrews was a better player than Lionel Messi, that would also be a matter of a opinion, but a totally ludicrous one.

The argument to give Kean more time is starting to reach those proportions.

[matty1875]

W3 L4 D4 adds up to 8 games does it?

But thanks for your specificity over games that can be counted.

Sorry my bad, edited it now for you to contain 1 Draw.

[chris]

Never thought I say this but its probably best if we lose 0-6 on saturday, get Alan Curb in.

only a big defeat will get Kean out and hopefully Venkys will say 7 games is enough, but I doubt it.

[Amo]

I've already explained that comment and stand by it.

If I someone tried to offer the opinion that Keith Andrews was a better player than Lionel Messi, that would also be a matter of a opinion, but a totally ludicrous one.

The argument to give Kean more time is starting to reach those proportions.

While I agree with you in essence, I see no reason why some fans would be "part of the problem"?

That implies that they have a say in whether Kean stays or goes.

[tony gale's mic]

While I agree with you in essence, I see no reason why some fans would be "part of the problem"?

That implies that they have a say in whether Kean stays or goes.

Because quite a few people in the know have said that Kean is claiming that the majority of the supporters don't want him removed and this part of whats keeping this in the job.

While this isn't true about the majority of supporters, the more fans we have who can't see the obvious and still don't support his removal, the more this gives weight to Kean's claims.

Besides, when we have our own fans who watch Rovers week in, week out and who are meant to know a thing or two about the game who still want Kean to be given more time, how can we expect our owners over in Pune whose first game in ages was the win vs Arsenal to be on board with what needs to be done?

Never thought I say this but its probably best if we lose 0-6 on saturday, get Alan Curb in.

only a big defeat will get Kean out and hopefully Venkys will say 7 games is enough, but I doubt it.

Yep, this is the first Rovers game I've ever felt like this before. Even under Ince the Wigan game that ultimately did for him was one I'd hoped we'd get points from. But this is a pretty unique situation with our clueless owners and if we lose badly then it has to make the owners wake up just that bit more, and our final points tally will surely be better than if we snatch a lucky point.

[m1st]

One of them we were superb against Man United yes. One of them we were very lucky not to lose away at the worst team in the division. One of them we beat a Bolton side with the worst (?) away record in the league. And one we had a great first half against Wolves before falling away in the second half.

Out of those four games, I count one and a half good performances, one OK performance and one and a half poor performances (the game at West Ham and the second half against Wolves). It makes no sense that this would be enough to keep a man in a difficult job with no managerial pedigree and who'd done an awful job previously.

To a lot of us, our record at the start of this season has been utterly predictable. It's only certain people who seem surprised that a manager with 22 points from 21 games last season is starting in a broadly similar fashion.

While I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion you come to, tgm, I remember wondering at the Man. United game if some of the teams below us in the table might lodge official complaints about the way both teams appeared to agree on a draw, once United had got back the point they needed for the title. I remember thinking that if, once United had equalised, they'd pushed on for a winner, they could well have got it. Instead, we got the point which meant that at no time during the last day of the season did we drop into the relegation zone.

And then we and Wolves did the same the following week. I bet Birmingham City weren't pleased when they saw the last few minutes of that game.

And I know that the Premier League authorities probably wouldn't [couldn't?] have done anything about such complaints; I'm just making the point that you could say we were a bit fortunate to hold onto that point v. Man. United.

[Majiball]

Sorry my bad, edited it now for you to contain 1 Draw.

Fair play.

If I was looking at Kean and thinking he had a chance of becoming a decent manager I personally would expect to see one thing occurring. When you read through the match threads there is one thing that most agree on our full backs are too exposed and we are getting raped in those areas. Now this has been evident since pre-season and has been commented on, and yet 8 games later we still see the same. Any young up and coming Mourinho would have tried to sort this by now, people are saying we don't look fit, again this was commented on in pre-season, and? This is the biggest issue despite all the other goings on things on the pitch are not getting sorted and we don't see him trying different things to try and rectify these issues.

[Amo]

Because quite a few people in the know have said that Kean is claiming that the majority of the supporters don't want him removed and this part of whats keeping this in the job.

We don't actually know what's keeping Kean in a job. Everyone has their own theories. Some say Venky's are too proud to sack him, some say they can't afford to boot him, some say they're afraid of the ensuing scandal, and some just blame it on mind control.

While this isn't true about the majority of supporters, the more fans we have who can't see the obvious and still don't support his removal, the more this gives weight to Kean's claims.

The majority of fans must be Anti-Kean, simply based on the manager's dismal form. However, the faithful will continue to turn up week in, week out, to back the team AND the manager. Like I said before, if the fans really want to make a stand, they have to be cruel to be kind. Abstain from Ewood. And when the gates fall, Venky's will have no choice but to wield the axe.

[tony gale's mic]

While I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion you come to, tgm, I remember wondering at the Man. United game if some of the teams below us in the table might lodge official complaints about the way both teams appeared to agree on a draw, once United had got back the point they needed for the title. I remember thinking that if, once United had equalised, they'd pushed on for a winner, they could well have got it. Instead, we got the point which meant that at no time during the last day of the season did we drop into the relegation zone.

And then we and Wolves did the same the following week. I bet Birmingham City weren't pleased when they saw the last few minutes of that game.

And I know that the Premier League authorities probably wouldn't [couldn't?] have done anything about such complaints; I'm just making the point that you could say we were a bit fortunate to hold onto that point v. Man. United.

I don't know, I mean we were excellent against United considering they needed a point to win the title and we'd defended pretty resolutely against them. I hold that game as Kean's finest hour, certainly far above the wins against Liverpool and Arsenal teams in crisis at the time. Credit where credits due for one game and all that but even the last four games taken as a whole only amounted to one really good full game by Kean.

[Tony Diamond Inc]

Tony Diamond still supports the sacking of Sam, compared the hiring of Kean to the hiring of Dalglish, and thinks Kean should still get more time.

I think we can discard his views on football.

I don't just support the sacking of Mr Vain (I pity the 'ammers), I thank the Lord every day that it happened. As with the Dalglish 'comparison', I merely pointed out that not all managers served their apprenticeship in the lower leagues. Pedantry or just a bit of fun - you decide, but definitely no a comparison

Please do discard (or disregard) my views on football, you'd probably fail to understand the alphabet, so we won't get onto well thought out opinions.

[tony gale's mic]

I don't just support the sacking of Mr Vain (I pity the 'ammers), I thank the Lord every day that it happened. As with the Dalglish 'comparison', I merely pointed out that not all managers served their apprenticeship in the lower leagues. Pedantry or just a bit of fun - you decide, but definitely no a comparison

Please do discard (or disregard) my views on football, you'd probably fail to understand the alphabet, so we won't get onto well thought out opinions.

Yeah, kinda sad that you put your personal vendetta against a man over the continued success of your football club but oh well.

[roverandout]

what i dont understand is, kean has had a half season and all of this one so far, he has yet to even remotely look like a capable manager, he spouts lies in post match press conferences, tells porkys to the venkys time after time and still some people want to give him more time, do the pro-kean posters on here, all of a sudden think he will come good? that the penny will drop with him? what evidence so far do you have to claim he should be given more games? what did west ham fans say to each other about grant? did they want to give him more time? now look where they are and when they finally have a proper manager, they are winning again. At what point do you pro-keanys finally admit that hes not good enough? if kean had a good track-record then fair enough, we would have some basis to work with, alex fergurson was under serious pressure at man u at the beggining but they stuck with him because they knew what he had achieved with aberdeen, kean has nothing to back up claims that he can all of a sudden turn it around. We wont all of a sudden go on a 5 match winning streak, the football wont be as though we are sit in the nou camp and he wont have a plan b because all of this is based on 'i hope' rather than 'it will happen'. i cant let my club be left to chance by someone who has no idea how he can turn it around, yes we will have the odd win here and there but thats not enough.

[Mattyblue]

Anybody remember this?

http://www.brfcs.co.uk:81/mb/index.php/topic/20204-paul-ince/

16 games in and after an appalling tenure, 22% wanted Ince to stay on as manager.

Posters saying 'he needs time to build his own side', 'get behnid him' etc.

Do you think any of those posters think it was a wrong decision now? Or after Sam's first game against Stoke?

There will always some who say 'give him more time', 'maybe after the next run of games, maybe after Xmas, maybe after the window' and so on and so on.

Sometimes appointments don't work out and you have to cut your losses.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

We don't actually know what's keeping Kean in a job. Everyone has their own theories. Some say Venky's are too proud to sack him, some say they can't afford to boot him, some say they're afraid of the ensuing scandal, and some just blame it on mind control.

Its mind control all right. I can personally vouch for that.