[Archived] Defensive Midfield and Right back

[joey_big_nose]

Looking at the team we have two serious issues that need to be rectified if we are going to have any chance of staying up:-

1) Our central midfield is extremely brittle and contains no leaders

2) Salgado is really really struggling at right back

We are in the barmy situation where we have four quality centre backs and five quality attacking midfielders/wingers. However the central midfield opitons are either far too green - Petrovic and Lowe - or terminally unfit - Dunn and Grella. And we are also in the ludicrous position of being totally reliant on a 35 year old full back who, while a total legend, just cannot seem to cope with the pace anymore this season. In theory we have signed back up in Riberio but Kean seems to hve little faith in him, let alone the fans. Henley and Ramm are coming through but in an already inexperienced side it seems far too much of a stretch to introduce them.

So how in God's name do we sort this out with no opportunity to sign players til January? Really, imo, we are going to have to probably draft in the surplus centrebacks to try and do a job in front of the defence and at right back. This is extremely worrying but the facts of the matter are that we just do not have the quality to cover these postitions.

My 'preference' would maybe to give Samba or Dann a shot in midfield sitting in front of defence, while the other partners with Givet at CB. Right back could maybe still be covered by Salgado then, hopefully with more cover from the extra man. If he can't hack it we might be looking at the bizarre situation of Nelsen and Givet at CB, Dann at right back and Samba sitting in front.

Desperate times call for desperate measures... the transfer policy over the summer - whilst it brought in potential in Petrovic and Goodwillie, and established quality players in Dann and Vuckevic - seems very misguided. We would be in a much more comfortable position if instead of Vukcevic (who is just far too similar to what we have) we found a quality central midfielder. And, especially with Emerton going, an established right back was an absolute must.

We are not going to be able to turn things around until we get these problem positions sorted.

[Baz]

Heard of N'zonzi?

IMO another reason why Bert should still be at Ewood

[slough_rover]

I think we should give Dann a go at right back as Givet is solid in the centre compared to LB.

[Torgeir]

Salgado looked back to his best against Fulham imo, but games against quick and nippy wingers are not for him. Givet at left back was our main liability in that game, as well as Petrovic being throwed in the deep end when he really should be eased into PL football.

What our team is lacking is a serious striker.

[joey_big_nose]

Salgado looked back to his best against Fulham imo, but games against quick and nippy wingers are not for him. Givet at left back was our main liability in that game, as well as Petrovic being throwed in the deep end when he really should be eased into PL football.

What our team is lacking is a serious striker.

Really? Could have given away two penalties in the game. Love him, but we desperately need another option, or at least provide him with some cover...

[Hughesy]

Really? Could have given away two penalties in the game.

But didnt...... :!:

Against Pace its a problem, he needs more protection from the right winger.

Defensive mid we have 3 options - Petrovic, NZonzi & Gorilla if ever fit....

Scoring goals is our main issue at the moment.

[LeChuck]

Are there any free transfers around who could do a job? Philip Degen and Lars Jacobsen are available on free transfers. We've all seen Lars can do a solid job first hand.

Defensive midfield is much tougher. I actually thought Dunn was having a really good game until his injury. If we can have one of Grella or Dunn available each game we could be ok.

Definitely not keen on moving Dann or Samba from centre back. They're one of the best pairings in the league, tear those two apart and we'll be worse off I think.

[Amo]

Degen's a free agent? What happened to that guy?

[Parsonblue]

On the evidence of the four League games thus far I think it's more to do with the system rather than individuals as to why the full-backs are continually being turned over. Salgado, Givet and, to a lesser extent Olsson, have all struggled at times this season when playing at full-back. The fact that so many of our midfielders are attack minded means they don't instinctively help out at the back. On Sunday Hoilett gave no help to Givet - when Zamora went past him for the goal Junior was stood watching - and the same with Rochina on the opposite flank. If the wide players are not going to drop back and help out it won't matter who we play at full-back - they are still going to get turned over.

[Kelbo]

On the evidence of the four League games thus far I think it's more to do with the system rather than individuals as to why the full-backs are continually being turned over. Salgado, Givet and, to a lesser extent Olsson, have all struggled at times this season when playing at full-back. The fact that so many of our midfielders are attack minded means they don't instinctively help out at the back. On Sunday Hoilett gave no help to Givet - when Zamora went past him for the goal Junior was stood watching - and the same with Rochina on the opposite flank. If the wide players are not going to drop back and help out it won't matter who we play at full-back - they are still going to get turned over.

Thank god for common sense, keep saying, however good a defender, we continually leave our wide defenders exposed with no support at all, that is our real problem, we have neither organisation nor shape and with our poor fitness levels we will always struggle.

[joey_big_nose]

Thank god for common sense, keep saying, however good a defender, we continually leave our wide defenders exposed with no support at all, that is our real problem, we have neither organisation nor shape and with our poor fitness levels we will always struggle.

True. This is partly tactical. But also it is partly down to the personnel we have recruited who we need to fit in the side. At the start of the summer we already had Hoilett, Formica and Rochina as attacking midfielders. We had lost two very significan defensive midfielders in the Joneses. We have added both Goodwillie and Vuckcevic, leading to midfield options far too geared to the last third of the pitch. If we had instead signed a good physical stirker and a good solid midfielder then it would be easier to have a more solid shape. The personnel issue and the tactical issue are inextricably linked to one another. Players have a limited ability to adapt to a system depedning on their qualities.

[jim mk2]

We had lost two very significan defensive midfielders in the Joneses. .

Therein lies the rub. The spine of the team that gleaned some useful results at the end of last season has not been replaced. The loss of J Jones has proved to be just as significant as that of P Jones. Those two gave the team strength and shape down the middle and their departures has resulted in the team looking disjointed and disorganised this season. The wrong players were recruited in the summer - and apart from Dann those that have joined are not of similar quality. The squad may be a little deeper than the squad that ended last season but the first team is weaker - in short, we are in a worse position than at the end of last season which is reflected in our position at the bottom of the table.

[Veevs]

Agree no end with the posts here Jim Mk2 and Joey, been bleating about it for a while (and slated by the Rovers Fans for it).

I honestly think with the personel we have that there is no real solution to finding players who can fit into those roles, instead I would think about us changing our formation.

Personally I would consider us playing a back five with Salgado/Dann/Samba/Givet/Olsson with either Olsson or Dann (Has decent pace, Leadership, Intelligent play and tactical awareness) pushing more forward as appropriate i.e. Dann supporting the right side of Def midfield and Olsson providing pace on the wing covered by Givet.

There are some interesting reads out there in regards to Salgado, him and Roberto Carlos had similar issues in the ultimate Real side when they had defensive midfield issues due to injuries which left both full back positions overly exposed.

Nzonzi for me is a strange one in a defensive midfield role, he does the basics of the role well (i.e. he can tackle, intercept passes to the strikers and break up play) but he is not what you would call an intelligent player he lacks the ability and experience to cover the lack of any wide support for the fullback on his side, so simply put I don't think he is tactically aware enough nor does he have any ability in the Leadership and communication areas.

Attack is also a major area of concern, Goodwillie is never a lone striker his link up play just isn't good enough and again he isn't experienced enough to do that role (take a look at players who can play the lone striker, target man role and the best you will find are experienced players to say the least, Davies is a good example it took him an awful long while to grow into that role).

I also question why we have so many attacking midfielders from a few angles, what is the point of spending money there if you don't have strikers who can benefit from their play, we simply don't have strikers who can make use of the channels nor any who would be considered goal poachers we have some pretty decent young attacking midfield talent but not a single striker who would be available if they played the killer ball. This will in the long run seriously damage the confidence of these young lads.

[m1st]

There's another thread recently opened noting that Lars Jacobsen's also now a Free Agent.

Btw, veevs; love your signature line - wouldn't it have been brilliant if Bruce Willis had played a character called Vince Grella?!

[duffbear]

There's another thread recently opened noting that Lars Jacobsen's also now a Free Agent.

Btw, veevs; love your signature line - wouldn't it have been brilliant if Bruce Willis had played a character called Vince Grella?!

I would be tempted to try Givet or Samba at right back and Play Salgado centre mid......

[Andy3809]

On the evidence of the four League games thus far I think it's more to do with the system rather than individuals as to why the full-backs are continually being turned over. Salgado, Givet and, to a lesser extent Olsson, have all struggled at times this season when playing at full-back. The fact that so many of our midfielders are attack minded means they don't instinctively help out at the back. On Sunday Hoilett gave no help to Givet - when Zamora went past him for the goal Junior was stood watching - and the same with Rochina on the opposite flank. If the wide players are not going to drop back and help out it won't matter who we play at full-back - they are still going to get turned over.

Really dont agree with this at all.

Yes having a wide midfielder that helps out and tucks in when we dont have the ball is great but it doesnt excuse the fact that our full-backs just are not good enough.

I would still expect a full back to win his personal battle with the opposition winger more times than not. If they were being beaten by the oponents full backs on the overlap everytime then yes blame the system or midfielder for not helping out. They get destroyed one on one far too easily as they are too slow and not good enough.

I remember Salgado on his debut and I came on here and said that I thought he was past it and far too slow. All I got back in return was posts telling me that pace doesnt matter and it's all positioning ect ect. He's been our weak link for a lot longer than just this season but as he runs around a lot everybody thinks he's still a top player. Teams have targeted him since he arrived.

Nzonzi - If he isnt a defensive midfielder then god help him as he has nothing else to offer than being a stopper. Not a good player at all and yet people gave him player of the year and think he's another top player prob due to one made up story about man united being interested. Very average at best.

This is why we are struggling in these positions as the two players who start in them are not good enough. We didnt buy enough quality in the close season when we needed players in nearly all positions. This is why every pundit and his dog backed us to get relegated in the press pre season and why we have one point after four games. Having a manager with no idea and a group of del-boys running the club just confirms it's going to happen.

[joey_big_nose]

I remember Salgado on his debut and I came on here and said that I thought he was past it and far too slow. All I got back in return was posts telling me that pace doesnt matter and it's all positioning ect ect. He's been our weak link for a lot longer than just this season but as he runs around a lot everybody thinks he's still a top player. Teams have targeted him since he arrived.

Very harsh on Salgado I think. He has been excellent for us for much of last season, has the odd poor game. But this season he just looks well off the pace and is exposed far too much.

You are absolutely right that he will be targeted though. I imagine Walcott will line up on the left to torment Sally.

[Roversi]

Can't put Dann on the right for the same reason as Salgado, little pace. I'd put olsson on the right but worry that he is all left and would make a mistake. Could promote Henley or ramm give them a shot but throwing them in vs arsenal could be a risk but hey it worked with jones v Chelsea. Wild card would be nzonzi, tall, good in the air, relatively quick has defensive attributes. Could replace him in the midfield with petrovic of grella.

[Damien]

On the evidence of the four League games thus far I think it's more to do with the system rather than individuals as to why the full-backs are continually being turned over. Salgado, Givet and, to a lesser extent Olsson, have all struggled at times this season when playing at full-back. The fact that so many of our midfielders are attack minded means they don't instinctively help out at the back. On Sunday Hoilett gave no help to Givet - when Zamora went past him for the goal Junior was stood watching - and the same with Rochina on the opposite flank. If the wide players are not going to drop back and help out it won't matter who we play at full-back - they are still going to get turned over.

I actually saw Rochina coming back into the defence at times to help out and olsson drops deeper too! So maybe we could see the wings helping out in defence!

[LeChuck]

Can't put Dann on the right for the same reason as Salgado, little pace.

Agreed. Plus what's the point of paying that much for a player then turning him into an average/poor one by playing him out of position?

I wonder if Jason Lowe could play there? Didn't he slot in at centre back against Sheffield Wednesday? Midfielders with good defensive attributes often make very good full backs.

I actually saw Rochina coming back into the defence at times to help out and olsson drops deeper too! So maybe we could see the wings helping out in defence!

Rochina made more tackles than anyone against Fulham. In fact, he made 4 tackles in the right-back area of the pitch. Salgado made 2.

[LeChuck]

I wonder if Jason Lowe could play there? Didn't he slot in at centre back against Sheffield Wednesday? Midfielders with good defensive attributes often make very good full backs.

Well, Steve Kean answered my question in the interview with Kamy.

When talking about the strength and competition in defence, he said we have "Michel Salgado, Bruno and Jason Lowe at right back".

If Salgado remains a liability I'd like to see Lowe given a run there. I think he'd do a good job, might even turn out to be his best position.

[joey_big_nose]

This question raises itself today, and you can now add left back to the conundrum. We look weak down both flanks and we can't defend in the middle of the park. It is vital we sort this out otherwise we are total gonners.

To be honest going forward we only really need Hoilett up there because he is so devastating, playing off Yakubu. The rest of the side should be a dedicated defensive unit with a bit of counter attacking nous.

Lack of solid players in key positions is going to relegate us which is a massive shame as we do certainly have talent. I hope Kean sorts out the shape of the side and make a half decent fullback out of someone.

[Darwen Rover]

Controversial this but... I think Andrews could really do a job for us right now either at RB or DCM

[Al]

Controversial this but... I think Andrews could really do a job for us right now either at RB or DCM

That post stems from utter desperation.

[tcj_jones]

I thought it was absolute madness to let Emerton go when we did. He might not be a world-beater, but he's a steady right back who will rarely let you down. He's also an experienced head who can play in CM. If he wanted to leave, then fine, but not until January when we could be replaced.