[Archived] Protest March 17.09.11

[Amo]

OK, if you want to think that Arsenal's defence was good or even average in that game, you can stand in a corner on your own.

They certainly weren't as bad as you're pretending.

Plus your logic is extremely flawed. On one hand you say we defended resolutely (which is true to a fair degree), and yet talk about how many shots Arsenal had on target. On the other hand, you claim Arsenal didn't defend badly and point to our 5 shots on target as evidence of this.

Au contraire. It simply backs up my point that Arsenal showed their class by creating more chances on goal, which is why we did have to rely on Robinson and some last-ditch defending to keep 'em out.

Anyway, enough is enough. By perpetuating this argument I'm simply feeding your desire to scrutinize the merit out of Saturday.

[Veevs]

At the end of the day for 70 odd minutes Arsenal played us of the pitch.. corners, goals, possession etc (unless you watched the highlights).. and at Ewood and this is the Arsenal that is widely regarded as the poorest squad they have have put out since the EPL started. They got hammered more than us at ManU (that saw the end of sam for us), scraped past swansea and drew to Newcastle.

Arsenal scored as many goals for us as we scored.

Stats can be used to lie.. but there are limits to this, you can't polish a turd no matter how hard you try.

We won which is the important thing but please can people stop turning this into a Kean is doing great victory.. he may prove me wrong yet, but so far he has proven he can not stick to a winning formula (even one we cry out for that he got to by accident and injury).

[chris]

At the end of the day for 70 odd minutes Arsenal played us of the pitch.. corners, goals, possession etc (unless you watched the highlights).. and at Ewood and this is the Arsenal that is widely regarded as the poorest squad they have have put out since the EPL started. They got hammered more than us at ManU (that saw the end of sam for us), scraped past swansea and drew to Newcastle.

We destoryed Everton and came away with nothing then they beat Wigan and go 6th.

It is so unpredictable and a fine line is success, it could be players like Yakubu are the difference between success and failure.

Imagine Roberts or Goodwillie had been upfront. Horrible thought.

Scary thought if Kean had not got Yakubu, he could be his lifeline.

I know the table will not lie, Kean had Sam's points last year, not this year.

nowhere to run.

[thenodrog]

As for "many a posters" views, some have said we were lucky, some have said we weren't. I can see it from both angles. Rovers were lucky in some ways because Arsenal scored three goals and could have had at least another three. On the other hand, I've always said that a team can't concede four goals, as Arsenal did - and claim to be unlucky.

Wrong. Arsenal scored 5 goals Den. Which kind of puts a different slant on the win.

[47er]

You're talking to me Topman, not "many a poster", - and I haven't belittled the performance anywhere. In fact I haven't commented at all, so I still don't follow why you're so touchy when it's pointed out that Arsenal defended very poorly.

As for "many a posters" views, some have said we were lucky, some have said we weren't. I can see it from both angles. Rovers were lucky in some ways because Arsenal scored three goals and could have had at least another three. On the other hand, I've always said that a team can't concede four goals, as Arsenal did - and claim to be unlucky.

I thought we were lucky in terms of the result but I actually think we deserved to win! Don't know what camp that puts me in!

[Veevs]

I thought we were lucky in terms of the result but I actually think we deserved to win! Don't know what camp that puts me in!

So I guess if you miss that many opportunities you do deserve to loose.. so yeah Arsenal deserved it.

[Andy3809]

Come on guys that result was the biggest fluke I've seen in a long time. One of those games where you get all the luck.

On another day we would have been completely turned over. Two own goals, penalty not given, arsenal chances missed time and time again.

I'm chuffed we got the result but let's not pretend it was a masterful performance anymore than a tactical master class. We struck lucky and I loved it but I fear for the result on sat to be honest as we still look an unorganised poor side with relegation looming in my opinion.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Or perhaps we forced them into conceding those og's rather than having them gifted to us.It's a subtle difference and I appreciate you struggle with subtlety but og's are often not 'gifts' but when the dam breaks due to pressure being put on it.

Thats a very good point.

First o.g. Lowe skins Arshavin after outpacing him to the ball (no mean feat), setting up a free kick in a dangerous area. Its flighted right into the danger zone by Rochina and Givet successfully challenges the first man in the air to make him miss it. Song is then left unsighted and facing his goal about 4 yards out.

Second o.g. superb counter attack, Olsson sprints the length of the pitch to get onto a ball he had no right to, beats 2 men and drills a pull back from the Arsenal byeline about 6 yards from goal. Basically a defender's worst nightmare.

Neither were gifts, they were excellent Rovers play forcing a mistake.

[tony gale's mic]

Thats a very good point.

First o.g. Lowe skins Arshavin after outpacing him to the ball (no mean feat), setting up a free kick in a dangerous area. Its flighted right into the danger zone by Rochina and Givet successfully challenges the first man in the air to make him miss it. Song is then left unsighted and facing his goal about 4 yards out.

Second o.g. superb counter attack, Olsson sprints the length of the pitch to get onto a ball he had no right to, beats 2 men and drills a pull back from the Arsenal byeline about 6 yards from goal. Basically a defender's worst nightmare.

Neither were gifts, they were excellent Rovers play forcing a mistake.

The second own goal had some very good counterattacking play, but the first own goal being classed as excellent play? Come off it. Arshavin gave away a silly free kick, Rocinha flighted a hopeful ball in and Song knocked it into his own goal. Defenders are often left unsighted and facing their goal from free kicks, we would expect a defender playing for any PL team, let alone Arsenal, to deal with that one.

[dave birch]

Pressure forces mistakes, otherwise the own goal scenario doesn't arise (apart from abject stupidity and/or bung taking) because a professional calmly retrieves the situation.

[tony gale's mic]

Pressure forces mistakes, otherwise the own goal scenario doesn't arise (apart from abject stupidity and/or bung taking) because a professional calmly retrieves the situation.

Every side causes some degree of pressure during a game. Even most sides who play Man United at OT will exert some kind of pressure. Crosses and dead balls will be fired into Man Utd's box a few times in most games. Creating the kind of pressure that led to the first own goal isn't in itself some kind of achievement.

The second own goal was a very good counter attack.

[Gav]

I thought we were lucky in terms of the result but I actually think we deserved to win! Don't know what camp that puts me in!

I think I have to agree with that 47er, lucky yes, but we deserved those points.

[chris]

The second own goal had some very good counterattacking play, but the first own goal being classed as excellent play? Come off it. Arshavin gave away a silly free kick, Rocinha flighted a hopeful ball in and Song knocked it into his own goal. Defenders are often left unsighted and facing their goal from free kicks, we would expect a defender playing for any PL team, let alone Arsenal, to deal with that one.

I'm not too keen that some say the second goal was a Rochina assist.

Agree the fourth goal was great Olsson play.

[dave birch]

Every side causes some degree of pressure during a game. Even most sides who play Man United at OT will exert some kind of pressure. Crosses and dead balls will be fired into Man Utd's box a few times in most games. Creating the kind of pressure that led to the first own goal isn't in itself some kind of achievement.

The second own goal was a very good counter attack.

The pressure that led to the first own goal isn't in itself some kind of achievement?

I'd suggest the fact a goal was an outcome is "some kind of achievement". Isn't that what the game is about?

"The second own goal was a very good counter attack". Was any pressure applied to the defence? I'd suggest in both cases pressure on the defence caused the defender to make a mistake.

[yeti-dog]

The pressure that led to the first own goal isn't in itself some kind of achievement?

I'd suggest the fact a goal was an outcome is "some kind of achievement". Isn't that what the game is about?

"The second own goal was a very good counter attack". Was any pressure applied to the defence? I'd suggest in both cases pressure on the defence caused the defender to make a mistake.

Dave,for what it's worth I agree and I was trying to make that point to TGM. Others seem to agree too but if TGM doesn't see it then it's not the case and nothing any of us say will ever disavow him of that view so convinced is he by his own argument to the exclusion of all others.

[tony gale's mic]

Dave,for what it's worth I agree and I was trying to make that point to TGM. Others seem to agree too but if TGM doesn't see it then it's not the case and nothing any of us say will ever disavow him of that view so convinced is he by his own argument to the exclusion of all others.

Plenty of others disagree too.

It will take much finer minds than yours to win me over on anything. This much is true.

[den]

I thought we were lucky in terms of the result but I actually think we deserved to win! Don't know what camp that puts me in!

Same camp as me 47er. Arsenal conceded four goals. If you do that, you don't deserve anything out of a game.

I was trying to convince Topman and imy that Arsenal aren't the team they were - or to be precise, they aren't the team they were - at the moment. Just as Liverpool weren't playing well last season when we beat them. I seem to remember they wouldn't accept that either. That's all. No more than that, no less then that.

Typically, that's being seen as putting rovers down.

.

[jim mk2]

Arsenal have the worst team I have seen in years - but that doesn't alter the fact they should have won the game comfortably. Arsenal made individual mistakes in defence but Rovers were not set up correctly to defend as a team, resulting in us presenting a host of chances to Arsenal over the 90 minutes that they somehow contrived to miss. We deserved the win but could not have complained if we had lost - and for all the excitement of the game and the victory if we play like that over the course of the season we will go down.

[Tom]

I just find it depressing that anytime we win a game some people will do everything they can to discredit it.

Why can't we just enjoy winning a game of football?

[chris]

Arsenal have the worst team I have seen in years - but that doesn't alter the fact they should have won the game comfortably. Arsenal made individual mistakes in defence but Rovers were not set up correctly to defend as a team, resulting in us presenting a host of chances to Arsenal over the 90 minutes that they somehow contrived to miss. We deserved the win but could not have complained if we had lost - and for all the excitement of the game and the victory if we play like that over the course of the season we will go down.

If you look at Arsenals attacking threat, we will not play many teams with that level of talent outside of the top 6, with Yakubu and Dann (on form)I think we might have won Wolves and Everton games.

Andrey Arshavin 10 million

Gervinho 10.5 million

Theo Walcott 12 million

Mikel Arteta 10 million

Tomas Rosicky 12 million

Van Perise probably valued at 20 million purchased 3 million.

I'm not making excuses for Kean if he can't turn it around he deserves to go, but he has bought himself more time.

Comapre that too:

Nonzi 400k

Formica 3.5 million

Rochina 400k

Yakubu 1.5 million

Goodwillie 2 million

Petrovic 2.5 million

Olssen and Holliet both delevoped by Blackburn.

[glen9mullan]

My stance on it is: If you take away the Managers name and face ect and get left with just the word Manager, would I have a different opinion?

The answer is NO, It does not matter to me if the Manager was Ancelotti, Hughes, O'Neill or Laurel and Hardy. All i'm interested in is results.

Has the current Manager got these results consistantly in last 10 months? NO

Has the current Manager got one of the worst Records of any Manager of BRFC? Yes

Has the Manager tried to adapt a new style of Play? YES

Has the Manager signed some good exciting players? YES

Has the Manager broke more negative records than good? YES.

Would the Manager have been sacked under old regime or at 99.9% of other clubs? YES

So my opinion is based on all these stats.

The Arsenal win regardless of any luck factor still has Rovers picking up the three points and as a supporter I was thrilled with the three points.

Does this mean I change my mind? NO

What will it take for me to change my mind? A run of 7-10 games where we win a large percentage of them if SK can get 18 points out of the next 30 then I will no doubt warm to him a little, cos after all I'm only interested in results on the pitch and our team remaining in the Premier league. If Steve Kean can consistantly get those results and we make not only step forward, (as we will need to make a couple just to get to where we was under the previous Manager) but a step beyond what we achieved under the previous Manager then he will have me on-side as a fan who will sing "Steve Kean's Blue and White Army"

Sadly one victory over Arsenal has not got me in that camp yet!!

[den]

I just find it depressing that anytime we win a game some people will do everything they can to discredit it.

Why can't we just enjoy winning a game of football?

Don't talk rubbish Tom, no-one has discredited it. There is a match and tactics to debate within that game you know.

[Mattyblue]

We win, the plus sides of the performance and the negatives will be discussed, we lose, same deal.

Coming off the game and in the pub after, I heard constantly 'that's the poorest Arsenal side Ive seen down here, but yeah great 3 points'.

Seems fair enough to me.

[Tom]

Don't talk rubbish Tom, no-one has discredited it. There is a match and tactics to debate within that game you know.

Liverpool (luck)

Arsenal (luck)

Bolton (crap team)

Wolves (nearly threw it away)

The same people tried to put a downer on all these results (not talking you here I must add).

I can't include too many other wins in that list though, simply because he hasn't won many more.

As for tactics v Arsenal he got one thing wrong IMO and that was not offering Givet enough protection, this was rectified and we went on to win the game, Kean may be a bad manager but he certainly didn't do bad last week IMO.

I have no problem discussing tactics and the finer details of a game (messageboards would be dead without it), I will always disect the game in the post match thread however it bothers me that we can win a game and you know straight away in your head how certain members will spin it.

[chris]

Has the current Manager got these results consistantly in last 10 months? NO

Agree Sam's points saved his arse, at this point thought it's fine to let him hang himself or turn it around, when he gets to a point like Ince, Harford and hodgson where even if he "wins" he would still be in the bottom three, then a protest really can't go wrong.

Has the current Manager got one of the worst Records of any Manager of BRFC? Yes

I am certain John Williams would have never given him the job and if he had, he was have let him go in the summer, Kean's a lucky man

Has the Manager tried to adapt a new style of Play? YES

I know he said that he would not have changed it so quickly but I think his hand was forced, he was not qualifed for the job and had to make an impression. The next three or four games will be a great time to judge, becuase surely he's out of excuses should it not work.

Has the Manager signed some good exciting players? YES

Interesting, I agree with Jal that the exciting/outstanding players are Olssen, Samba, Robbo and Holliet not his players, Petrovic is bad so far, Goodwillie not impressed, Simon a flair player not seen much of him, Rochina has major problems with his football brain, and Formica is too inconsistent, Anderson is a late developer and who's that Brazilian right back again.

That leaves Yahuku as the stand out signing after one game. Dann really looks like he'll do a job as well as Nelsen.

Still waiting for a few of these gamble signins to pay off, will potential save Kean, because its proven quality in Yakubu that kept him in a job saturday.

Like everyone I want the potential to be fulfilled sooner the better, until then I'll be nervous about a good few of them.

Has the Manager broke more negative records than good? YES.

He also comes across the worse of any manager I can remember by desperate attempts to hide the cracks, obviously the radio phone was a massive repair job and he was not cocky deluded self but a little human, I respect him for that.

Would the Manager have been sacked under old regime or at 99.9% of other clubs? YES

Based on the situation if you sack a manager close to the top 6 for his style of football, the ask someone with the same player to completely change the style you have to give him time.

But he 100% would have never got the job from any sane chairman, I believe that Kean bullsh1ted his way into the job by flying to India, but then I'm sure we might have tried it if we could have got away with it.