Pune trip

[Paul]

It appears Paul has been bought also.

I hope I'm next

Err no.......I listen to what people say and formulate an opinion. Having an open mind means I can alter that opinion and if you read carefully, difficult for some I know, you will find the only opinion I've changed is the Pune 9 were right to go and it appears Venkys' are,sadly, here for the long term.

If this is the case it's necessary to look at different strategies which some, Bucky, are capable of doing.

[BuckyRover]

Err no.......I listen to what people say and formulate an opinion. Having an open mind means I can alter that opinion and if you read carefully, difficult for some I know, you will find the only opinion I've changed is the Pune 9 were right to go and it appears Venkys' are,sadly, here for the long term.

If this is the case it's necessary to look at different strategies which some, Bucky, are capable of doing.

Of course they were right to go. That has been obvious all along. They love Blackburn rovers and had an opportunity to speak face to face with the people in sole charge of its welfare.

It was an opportunity to try and affect the current situation. Something I think all fans should want to do if presented with the opportunity.

[Doug]

The last two pages on this thread are appauling! people demanding 'Venky's Out!' what sort of argument is that! Have you paused to think if we didn't have them? I agree, this last 10 months has been a torrid time, full of decissions most Rovers fans wouldn't agree with, but, like em or not, we need owners with money or we do a Leeds. Sheff Weds etc! Try to post an alternative owner....I can't think of one, can anybody else.

The snipe about a new members opinion being somehow less worthwhile than those of a long term member is complete tosh, I recently joined BRFCS because I wondered if I could get some information about the club from other Rovers fans, and I have supported Rovers (living in Bolton) for over 40 years!

Also, the reference to the Kean and Venky's poll. I voted against Kean (would prefer Souness or Hughes), but I'm not sure about Venky's, because I cannot answer... if not them, WHO!!!

[DE.]

The last two pages on this thread are appauling! people demanding 'Venky's Out!' what sort of argument is that! Have you paused to think if we didn't have them?

The Trust had already started looking at alternative ways of funding us should they not be able to sell us, so I'd imagine we'd still be fairly stable if Venky's had never taken us over. Impossible to say for sure but the Trust's record combined with Allardyce's record would likely have kept us ticking along OK, although we'd probably still be financially weak.

Just realised you might have meant if venky's left right now - in which case yes, we could be sold to any chancer willing to try his luck. A proper asset stripper. Venky's out isn't the solution right now, but they certainly should not be immune from criticism either!

[Doug]

The Trust had already started looking at alternative ways of funding us should they not be able to sell us, so I'd imagine we'd still be fairly stable if Venky's had never taken us over. Impossible to say for sure but the Trust's record combined with Allardyce's record would likely have kept us ticking along OK, although we'd probably still be financially weak.

Just realised you might have meant if venky's left right now - in which case yes, we could be sold to any chancer willing to try his luck. A proper asset stripper. Venky's out isn't the solution right now, but they certainly should not be immune from criticism either!

I think we'd all prefer the Trust and Allardyce option (if only it were an option now!), I understood the 'Trust' wanted out. My point is meant to be taken in our current situation, I share everyone's dissapointment and frustration at the goings on over the last 10 months, but, unless we can find a 'better' alternative I fear we have to tread very carefully because if the Venky's decided enough is enough and did sell up who would replace them? Frying pan and fire! The FF could be a useful group to pass on the fans feelings, but I wouldn't envy their position, berated by frustrated fans wanting blood. The 'Keane Out' protest is fine and, I hope succesful but it shouldn't snowball to anything more than that.

[ABBEY]

Who is keane? The venkys are killing us!

[47er]

I agree, we've tried to talk to other people (John's done the LT and I've answered questions on Vital), but I agree this is still a small percentage of fans, but I don't really know how best to address this.

Ultimately it was an unminuted set of meetings, I'd love to be able to give chapter and verse on everything said, but as you've already seen were all remembering the details slightly differently. Hopefully it's a first step towards more structured and minuted meetings, but for the moment, it is what it is.

Well you give your chapter and verse version as best you can. Then let the others agree with you or if not, point out where they disagree. Then we can all make our minds up.

Sounds very odd to me.

[antartica]

maybe you should read the poll %'s on the kean out and venky's ownership threads

that would give anybody all the insight they need, but looking at when you joined the board, maybe you don't want to do that!

You miss the point entirely. Firstly you have no idea my opinion on either the manager or the owners. For the record: not keen on the manager and the jury is still out on the owners.

However the thing that is most worrying is the poisonous atmosphere developing amongst the fans. I've witnessed it at the games, but this thread is a diamond example. There a witch hunt vibe going round. Anyone who utters anything even slightly sympathetic tone towards Kean/Venkys is met with a volley of abuse. People have been called everything from apologists to hitler in this thread. "Oh my god, he doesn't think Kean is the worse thing ever; get him". All some of you are missing is torches and pitchforks.

Its even now descended into tourettes style "Venkys Out" every 10 posts. You don't like the owners, we get it. People might hold a minority opinion but they surely don't deserve the veherment slurs.

[sentient]

When the Fans Forum trip was first mooted I, along with many others, believed the FF as a body should not make the trip to Pune believing such discussion should be taking place at Ewood. Despite this view I was and remain very supportive of the individuals brave enough to make the trip and felt they would / did represent Rovers support extremely well. They received some awful abuse for having the courage of their convictions, from some posters still are, and this is clearly wrong in many ways.

Come on Paul! It seems to me that you're playing the long game here and I can go with that, but "brave"? I can't stomach that and would ask you to explain why you would think that?

After listening to the recent Pune Special 2 podcast and having the chance to talk with one of the Pune 9 I have changed my view entirely. I would urge everyone to listen to the podcast and, where needed, read closely between the lines. It's clear from John's remarks the 9 were being closely monitored, even "vetted," to assess the attitude and demeanour of the fans who travelled to India.

I know that security on the subcontinent is becoming an issue but I didn't think they had got to East German levels just yet! Now I am beginning to think they must have been extremely brave to make this trip! It really isn't right that they should be treated like this

I feel we can learn from this and gain some understanding of how Indian business culture works - it's now obvious without each of the meetings that took place, from the "chance" encounter at the temple through to discussion with Balaji, it would not have been possible to have any serious discussion at Ewood. I feel there is a process which had to be followed, probably one most of us are / were unaware of, whereby it was necessary to move slowly but surely up the chain as each "test" was passed.

I'd like to thank the FF for having the courage lol now I think you are taking the michael to accept the original offer, albeit under very different circumstances than those we currently face, and being prepared to travel thousands of miles on our behalf.

We should not underestimate the value to the general support of having a Fans Forum with members who have the foresight to appreciate the need to make this trip.

What was the name of the laughing clown/jester outside the funhouse at the pleasure beach? belaji!? now i know you are ttp! i like it though

Perhaps it was not fully understood how the process would work but if the trip had not taken place it's clear no progress would be made, now or in the future.

The travelers believe the words they have heard and been impressed with what they have seen. It really does now lay with the Raos to back up the words with actions.

My signature has changed slightly!!!

Well I don't know your real intent Paul but if the fans are expected to doff their caps to the Raos as if they are our feudal overlords then they are in for a bloody rude awakening. MEDIEVAL VENKYS OUT!! WE LIVE IN ENGLAND IN THE 21st CENTURY IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE!

[roverandout]

antartica, your in the minority because a blind man and his dog can see venkys/kean havent been good for rovers so far, have a look at the league table.

[sentient]

You miss the point entirely. Firstly you have no idea my opinion on either the manager or the owners. For the record: not keen on the manager and the jury is still out on the owners.

However the thing that is most worrying is the poisonous atmosphere developing amongst the fans. I've witnessed it at the games, but this thread is a diamond example. There a witch hunt vibe going round. Anyone who utters anything even slightly sympathetic tone towards Kean/Venkys is met with a volley of abuse. People have been called everything from apologists to hitler in this thread. "Oh my god, he doesn't think Kean is the worse thing ever; get him". All some of you are missing is torches and pitchforks.

Its even now descended into tourettes style "Venkys Out" every 10 posts. You don't like the owners, we get it. People might hold a minority opinion but they surely don't deserve the veherment slurs.

antartica let me explain because you obviously don't get it:

when your house is on fire, your wife is being raped and your kids are screaming ... do you quieten your response because your neighbour has asked you to keep the noise down? Now you might think that is a crazy analogy because it's JUST football, but for many people it is their family their home their life! If your passion is less, think yourself lucky!

Another analogy - if your friends girl left him for another bloke would you try to reason with him and say that "she isn't really the worst person ever" or would you just be quiet until the whole thing blows over?

[antartica]

antartica let me explain because you obviously don't get it:

when your house is on fire, your wife is being raped and your kids are screaming ... do you quieten your response because your neighbour has asked you to keep the noise down? Now you might think that is a crazy analogy because it's JUST football, but for many people it is their family their home their life! If your passion is less, think yourself lucky!

Another analogy - if your friends girl left him for another bloke would you try to reason with him and say that "she isn't really the worst person ever" or would you just be quiet until the whole thing blows over?

Once again, your missing my point. Maybe I'm not being very clear, if thats the case I apologise. I'm not saying people shouldn't/can't scream whatever they want about Kean or Venkys. You want to call Kean the worse thing to happen to our club ever, thats your right. I might even be inclined to agree. What I object to is the vilification of other fans who don't share your (our) opinion.

Using your analogy - if my friends girlfriend left him for another bloke I wouldn't abuse other people just because they didn't think said girlfriend was "the worse person ever".

Your beef here is between you and Kean/the Owners. Not with other Rovers fans who don't see it the same way as you, however deluded you (rightly) think they may be.

[DE.]

People have been called everything from apologists to hitler in this thread.

Godwin's Law my friend... if a forum debate hasn't referenced Hitler at some point it's breaking the laws of the internet

[sentient]

Once again, your missing my point. Maybe I'm not being very clear, if thats the case I apologise. I'm not saying people shouldn't/can't scream whatever they want about Kean or Venkys. You want to call Kean the worse thing to happen to our club ever, thats your right. I might even be inclined to agree. What I object to is the vilification of other fans who don't share your (our) opinion.

Using your analogy - if my friends girlfriend left him for another bloke I wouldn't abuse other people just because they didn't think said girlfriend was "the worse person ever".

Your beef here is between you and Kean/the Owners. Not with other Rovers fans who don't see it the same way as you, however deluded you (rightly) think they may be.

Let me spell out again the mechanics in simple langauage for the people who actually give a damn! (Not saying that you don't care but your language and sentiment doesn't scream "invested" in this to me. If I'm honest your approach says something far more ... mmm temporary). Anyway here it goes:

- Puppetter (the feudalists): oh my creations! we love you but you must show respect and not worship false idols! We will give you teasures beyond belief if you only believe!

- Girl (manipulextrodinaire): Ohh puppetor! My boys hands are cruel but your hands are so soft and beautiful, let me hold them forever and plenty long time fffnnnarrrrr! (subtext - Give me your money! You owe me respect and you should be grateful that you owe me. I think? Oh well, whateva <grin/smile> ya know whatamean?.

- Observer (cold person without heart in middle of ocean): haha yes Girl he was boring with callous hands and I think you are well rid. Maybe if you want I can give you more compliments. I am happy to worship but maybe a nice cruise round the med would enable me to dream up more compliments and reasons for your continued beautitude? Please! (fawning sycophancy, euughh!)

- Boy (Rovers fan) - wow pupetteer you are a bloody wrong 'un! I'm getting a bit fed up with you and the girl. Please send her away (she always frustrated anyway) or I might get my uncle glenn to call her/you some names. please go away you are not nice.

- Observer (now equipped with Taser-argument of "unreasonablemobmentallitiness") - Boy you have hurt me! Can't you see that the puppetters really love the girl that you used to love. Except they love her more than you did. And I doubt you will ever be worthy again for her because she has moved on bro! Sorry to tell you that but I am your best friend mate! Actually ... have you got her number? (oceania exits stages left, trousers bulging.)

- Boys shoots self.

(By the way, if you wish please feel free to exchange boy/girl it works just the same and I have no reason to offend anyone, except the puppeteers and manipulators).

Thanks anatarica. I'm sure everyone in Blackburn appreciates your warmth and concern about their worries.

[antartica]

Let me spell out again the mechanics in simple langauage for the people who actually give a damn! (Not saying that you don't care but your language and sentiment doesn't scream "invested" in this to me. If I'm honest your approach says something far more ... mmm temporary).

......

Thanks anatarica. I'm sure everyone in Blackburn appreciates your warmth and concern about their worries.

Have you considered that someone can be lifelong fan but still not want to listen to fans lay into each other constantly? That I can want whats best for my club without thinking another fan with a differing opinion as some sort of idiot? The ultimate evidence here being that you seem to think we disagree about the state of the club (i'm not convinced we do), which in your mind makes me less of a fan. Or as you put it "less invested". Not that I'm sure how I could convince you otherwise.

Godwin's Law my friend... if a forum debate hasn't referenced Hitler at some point it's breaking the laws of the internet

Reductio ad Hitlerum, indeed.

[Paul]

Sentient.

Come on Paul! It seems to me that you're playing the long game here and I can go with that, but "brave"? I can't stomach that and would ask you to explain why you would think that?

As I said earlier I have simply changed my opinion about whether or not the FF should have gone to Pune. As for brave, I think it's any apt description. These fans knew they would face abuse for going and they did. TBH I don't understand how certain people can still show their faces on here given the language used against the Pune 9. If I was spoken to in the same manner my reaction would eventually be different. So yes they were morally brave.

I know that security on the subcontinent is becoming an issue but I didn't think they had got to East German levels just yet! Now I am beginning to think they must have been extremely brave to make this trip! It really isn't right that they should be treated like this

I think you misunderstand the context, I used vetted in the sense the Pune 9 were being "screened" or "tested" to establish their attitudes and likely reactions if they met the owners. If the Pune 9 had shown a tendency to rant and rave they would not have got to meet Balaji.

We may not like this, it may be a less than 21st century attitude, but if this is how Indian business culture works we have to embrace it. Equally the Raos have to embrace our culture. From those I have spoken to its apparent none knew this would be the case until some time into the trip.

I wasn't using vetted or any other words in security terms though I do understand the security threat was considered very real.

What was the name of the laughing clown/jester outside the funhouse at the pleasure beach? belaji!? now i know you are ttp! i like it though

I dont understand the above,like your following ramble about puppeteerin, it makes no sense to me. All I have done is to initially express very strong opposition to the trip, then listened to the outcome and changed my view. I've also then tried to express how important I think the FF could be in the coming months because many of the attitudes expressed on here mean those individuals would not get within a million miles of a conversation with the club

Well I don't know your real intent Paul but if the fans are expected to doff their caps to the Raos as if they are our feudal overlords then they are in for a bloody rude awakening. MEDIEVAL VENKYS OUT!! WE LIVE IN ENGLAND IN THE 21st CENTURY IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE!

I don't think I've made any such suggestion and I find the implication behind the words above quite disturbing. It's necessary and polite when dealing with another culture to attempt to understand the culture and embrace it - on both sides.

Yes I had noticed we live in the 21st century, sadly much of the opinion expressed recently suggests others don't.

[Miker]

Paul, given I don't have time for a long response, I'll just say I agree with you and have also changed my opinion of the trip and what the FF have done.

I don't know how effective they were, but I appreciate their efforts.

[ABBEY]

Don't matter whether about the trip alls that matters is the V's are killing us and are tosspots.

[AllRoverAsia]

I have now listened to the Pune Podcasts - twice.

Apart from the trippers thinking that they were on some sort of cultural exchange and that they feel that they learnt something about Indian culture there it really not much else.

Whilst you were in India I do not believe IMO that you were being vetted by Venkys Health and Safety to see if you were 'safe and suitable' to be presented to the Raos. That happened way before when the FF was chosen by the Raos or their representatives to be the trippers. They chose 'safe and suitable' from day one.

Don't get bogged down in the 'cultural' side - you were trying to meet up with international business people well versed in the art of PR and negotations.

Having said that I also feel that the Pune 9 achieved all that we could have reasonably expected from a first meeting with the Raos.

[Doug]

Let me spell out again the mechanics in simple langauage for the people who actually give a damn! (Not saying that you don't care but your language and sentiment doesn't scream "invested" in this to me. If I'm honest your approach says something far more ... mmm temporary). Anyway here it goes:

- Puppetter (the feudalists): oh my creations! we love you but you must show respect and not worship false idols! We will give you teasures beyond belief if you only believe!

- Girl (manipulextrodinaire): Ohh puppetor! My boys hands are cruel but your hands are so soft and beautiful, let me hold them forever and plenty long time fffnnnarrrrr! (subtext - Give me your money! You owe me respect and you should be grateful that you owe me. I think? Oh well, whateva <grin/smile> ya know whatamean?.

- Observer (cold person without heart in middle of ocean): haha yes Girl he was boring with callous hands and I think you are well rid. Maybe if you want I can give you more compliments. I am happy to worship but maybe a nice cruise round the med would enable me to dream up more compliments and reasons for your continued beautitude? Please! (fawning sycophancy, euughh!)

- Boy (Rovers fan) - wow pupetteer you are a bloody wrong 'un! I'm getting a bit fed up with you and the girl. Please send her away (she always frustrated anyway) or I might get my uncle glenn to call her/you some names. please go away you are not nice.

- Observer (now equipped with Taser-argument of "unreasonablemobmentallitiness") - Boy you have hurt me! Can't you see that the puppetters really love the girl that you used to love. Except they love her more than you did. And I doubt you will ever be worthy again for her because she has moved on bro! Sorry to tell you that but I am your best friend mate! Actually ... have you got her number? (oceania exits stages left, trousers bulging.)

- Boys shoots self.

(By the way, if you wish please feel free to exchange boy/girl it works just the same and I have no reason to offend anyone, except the puppeteers and manipulators).

Thanks anatarica. I'm sure everyone in Blackburn appreciates your warmth and concern about their worries.

Is this a script from Coronation Street?

[Tom]

More like sesame street

[Billy Castell]

If there is a next time, send Abbey.

[ABBEY]

I'd be in an Indian jail now,

Venkys out

[FourLaneBlue]

I have now listened to the Pune Podcasts - twice.

Apart from the trippers thinking that they were on some sort of cultural exchange and that they feel that they learnt something about Indian culture there it really not much else.

This sums it all up better than anyone has done. No substance, nothing we haven't heard dozens of times before from Venky's. It was a Pr trip, a junket, no problem with that. Nowt else, though.

Also, incidentally, far better than those who went could have done.

[Tom]

This sums it all up better than anyone has done. No substance, nothing we haven't heard dozens of times before from Venky's. It was a Pr trip, a junket, no problem with that. Nowt else, though.

Also, incidentally, far better than those who went could have done.

Not sure I understand this quote, you mean the wrong people went?

Explain to me how anybody else could have done much more than we did, had we approached it any other way there possibly may have been no meeting at all.