[Archived] How come?

[Pedro]

This isn't a thread to give Kean any excuses because I said I'd give him 7 games to get us going but I feel he now has to be a game away from the sack because results aren't going to suddenly improve for him now. During the game yesterday I've really started wondering why nobody has pointed any real blame at the players for some appalling displays in the blue and white halves over the past 10 months.

For many supporters it all seems to simply be Kean's fault, which it increasingly is these day, Venkys fault etc. but I am really struggling to think of the last time I saw Rovers really bust a gut to win a game of football. The defending is absolutely pathetic, disorganised and defeatist - which really can't just be down to tactics, and there is no leader, challenges or dominance in a midfield that can only succesfully pass sideways - sometimes.

Rovers almost looked relieved to go behind yesterday as if they totally expected it to happen and either stood off City, invited a shot or barely challenged for each one of the goals or previous near-misses. Fair enough it was 0 - 0 at half time but we weren't really tested defensively and didn't push out of our own half when in possesion. For me only Formica (a late sub) put in the kind of effort that any supporter would do for the team, the rest looked uninterested and not really bothered about getting absolutely owned. I don't really believe in lost causes (hence my previous willingness to give Kean a chance!!!) and expect any Rovers side to give their all regardless of defecit but those lazy illegitimates yesterday need to start throwing themselves into challenges, making use of their height advantage and doing the most simplest of things on the pitch because for me both them and Kean aren't up for what might quickly turn into a monumental battle ahead.

[Mattyblue]

The buck stops with the manager, always has, always will.

I remember hearing 'what about the players' under Ince, they soon turned their form around under a proper manager.

Footballers are largely lazy mercenaries who if you give an inch will take a mile.

[Elegia]

Just the same as any of us in our jobs really. If your boss doesn't know what he is doing or asks you to do things that you know aren't working and the company is going through its worst patch for years - how motivated are you to do a good job? And would you be talking to friends in other companies asking if they had vacancies, updating your cv, checking the papers for vacancies etc....

Footballers are not much different to the rest of us. Working for a good boss is always so much better.

[steven]

Considering we didn't win a second half all of last season our fitness must be in question. That is down to the conditioning of the players but the coaching staff need to be accountable too.

In a company if financial results aren't delivered the CEO is removed by the board. This is what is required now. New leadership.

[Pedro]

Hmmm sounds like people so far think they are earning their £30k - 60k a week then and the laziness and cock-ups are purely down to the manager. There's silly old me expecting a few tackles, responsibility, organisation, winning mentality and a bit of effort in return.

[DanLad]

Hmmm sounds like people so far think they are earning their £30k - 60k a week then and the laziness and cock-ups are purely down to the manager. There's silly old me expecting a few tackles, responsibility, organisation, winning mentality and a bit of effort in return.

The players have to follow instructions from the manager. There is, presumably, a plan. (I have my doubts)

The players have to be in the correct position to make a tackle, that is down to the formation and instructions from the manager. You can only take responsbility for your job/role.

The responsibility for being in the right place/time is down to the formation and instructions from the manager.

Organisation - Manager/coaching staff.

Winning mentality - Need to win to get that, generally. It's not magic dust.

Effort - Again, instructions from the manager. For example, if you are told to sit in front of the back four, but start running around like headless chicken, the blame for a defeat will be placed at your door.

[47er]

The buck stops with the manager, always has, always will.

I remember hearing 'what about the players' under Ince, they soon turned their form around under a proper manager.

Footballers are largely lazy mercenaries who if you give an inch will take a mile.

We also underestimate how thick footballers often are. Anyone hear the story about Carton Palmer yesterday on 5Live? He was transferred from West Brom (I think) to Sheffield Wednesday and drove there despite being banned from driving.

When his manager (Ron Atkinson) said"what are you doing, you're banned from driving?" Palmer's reply was "Oh,that was when I was at West Brom!"

He honestly thought his driving ban ended when he changed clubs!

My point is that players live in a bubble and often need guidance from a responsible adult.

Tbh I just thought that was really funny!

[Billy Castell]

I think many, including me, see the the squad as pretty good, but demoralised by the complete lack of nous and ability from the manager and the coaches. There is potential in the players, but the off the field stupidity must be affecting them.

[bob fleming]

Hmmm sounds like people so far think they are earning their £30k - 60k a week then and the laziness and cock-ups are purely down to the manager. There's silly old me expecting a few tackles, responsibility, organisation, winning mentality and a bit of effort in return.

I know where you're coming from but when you're working for a deluded, self promoting, backstabbing, tactically naive bullshitter I guess it can be hard to get motivated, although it shouldn't of course.

Maybe the fact he signed his Agents son who clearly isn't good enough as they see in training grates a little. Maybe the endless positivity has got to them? Maybe the fact that they are having to fly to Pune for a week instead of working on getting things right on the pitch isn't overly popular? It could be that they don't think the new players are good-enough, that we shouldn't have allowed Bert to leave, that they weren't happy with how Kalinic and Diouf were treated? They might find that claims of European qualification a little far fetched? Maybe they didn't like the way Jensen was asked to leave?

Maybe like a lot of the fans the players are sick to the pit of their stomachs of what has happened / is happening to the club under Kean and Venky's.

[Pedro]

The players have to follow instructions from the manager. There is, presumably, a plan. (I have my doubts)

The players have to be in the correct position to make a tackle, that is down to the formation and instructions from the manager. You can only take responsbility for your job/role.

The responsibility for being in the right place/time is down to the formation and instructions from the manager.

Organisation - Manager/coaching staff.

Winning mentality - Need to win to get that, generally. It's not magic dust.

Effort - Again, instructions from the manager. For example, if you are told to sit in front of the back four, but start running around like headless chicken, the blame for a defeat will be placed at your door.

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with you. Tactics are important but tactics don't make tackles, tactics don't make choices or move the ball around the field - players do. Managers can't go out of their boxes onto the pitch, they can set a team up and change things as the game goes along but once crosses are put in (e.g. Balotelli's goal) you'd expect your defender (who was in the right place at the right time) to bust a gut to get in the way of the ball, but he simply didn't. Previously, when the ball drops to Johnson at the edge of the box you'd expect Pederson to close him down and not amble towards him. In terms of the tactics of being in the right place at the right time, were the tactics to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, I very much doubt Givet was told to play two players onside for Nasri's goal and I don't expect Nzonzi was told to leave his man on a corner and let him simply nod the ball in - so you have helped to make my point entirely, how are these players getting away with not shouldering any blame for our poor form? It was an extremely similar story against Newcastle.

[DE.]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with you. Tactics are important but tactics don't make tackles, tactics don't make choices or move the ball around the field - players do. Managers can't go out of their boxes onto the pitch, they can set a team up and change things as the game goes along but once crosses are put in (e.g. Balotelli's goal) you'd expect your defender (who was in the right place at the right time) to bust a gut to get in the way of the ball, but he simply didn't. Previously, when the ball drops to Johnson at the edge of the box you'd expect Pederson to close him down and not amble towards him. In terms of the tactics of being in the right place at the right time, were the tactics to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, I very much doubt Givet was told to play two players onside for Nasri's goal and I don't expect Nzonzi was told to leave his man on a corner and let him simply nod the ball in - so you have helped to make my point entirely, how are these players getting away with not shouldering any blame for our poor form? It was an extremely similar story against Newcastle.

It all comes back to the manager though, doesn't it? He picks the players and he motivates them. He can't use the excuse of inheriting Allardyce's squad (which had finished 10th the previous season, so not sure why this has been used as a handicap) as he's had two transfer windows to mould his own team.

If the players aren't playing for him and making elementary mistakes it's still his fault. Kean has to carry the blame if the players are playing poorly. A good manager builds a team that doesn't let him down.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with you. Tactics are important but tactics don't make tackles, tactics don't make choices or move the ball around the field - players do. Managers can't go out of their boxes onto the pitch, they can set a team up and change things as the game goes along but once crosses are put in (e.g. Balotelli's goal) you'd expect your defender (who was in the right place at the right time) to bust a gut to get in the way of the ball, but he simply didn't. Previously, when the ball drops to Johnson at the edge of the box you'd expect Pederson to close him down and not amble towards him. In terms of the tactics of being in the right place at the right time, were the tactics to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, I very much doubt Givet was told to play two players onside for Nasri's goal and I don't expect Nzonzi was told to leave his man on a corner and let him simply nod the ball in - so you have helped to make my point entirely, how are these players getting away with not shouldering any blame for our poor form? It was an extremely similar story against Newcastle.

I can see where you are coming from - but a few points to consider.

1. When Hughes took over he said that our lack of concentration was down to poor fitness. He improved the teams fitness - and was proved right as the whole teams concentration in defensive positions improved.

2. Against Arsenal Givet was initially left one on one or even two on one. You could see it immediately in his demeanour - and he had a hopeless first 30 minutes or so. Tactics were adjusted during the match - he got more cover - and his performance improved. Yes players should always be motivated - but it demonstrated to me how demotivated some of our defenders have become with our current tactics. I think that Salgados poor form can also be partly attributed to poor tactics - and lack of cover in defensive situations.

3. Pass and move football at all levels is about confidence. Players will only run to collect a pass - or create room for another player - if they feel that the pass will be executed. The more futile runs they make - the less they will be motivated to make these runs. If you have a poor team pattern - this just exacerbates the problem - as passes get misplaced because the player isn't where they should be. Since Kean took over - we have seen multiple instances of players challenging for the same ball - or misplacing passes to players that weren't in their expected position. After a time this must get to players. To be fair to Kean - this improved towards the end of last season - mainly driven by the J Jones - who was always on the move to make or collect passes. This season - no JJ - no real team pattern again.

[Pedro]

It all comes back to the manager though, doesn't it? He picks the players and he motivates them. He can't use the excuse of inheriting Allardyce's squad (which had finished 10th the previous season, so not sure why this has been used as a handicap) as he's had two transfer windows to mould his own team.

If the players aren't playing for him and making elementary mistakes it's still his fault. Kean has to carry the blame if the players are playing poorly. A good manager builds a team that doesn't let him down.

Again, sorry I simply don't agree with this view at all. Tactics are one thing but players actually doing the basics on the pitch and messing up are totally another. I suppose you can strip that right back to saying would we (you and I) be able to make an impact with a great manager and brilliant tactics...I'd think not.

In terms of individual effort and commitment my arguement is that over the past couple of games it has horrified me how we have started to roll over and just die. A positive example of how I expect Rovers to be competing is Formica, even at 3 or 4 down he ran his socks off and closed down players - he generally put in 100% effort during his time on the pitch...is this to say that on the flip-side this is simply Kean's doing and wonderful man-management? No, it is the individual doing what each and every paid professional should do. Absolutely Kean should shoulder a huge chunk of the blame but so must the players too. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a thread to save Kean from the chop because I can see in his eyes he is broken and finished, but I can also see on the pitch that the players just aren't trying or capable.

[Pedro]

I can see where you are coming from - but a few points to consider.

1. When Hughes took over he said that our lack of concentration was down to poor fitness. He improved the teams fitness - and was proved right as the whole teams concentration in defensive positions improved.

2. Against Arsenal Givet was initially left one on one or even two on one. You could see it immediately in his demeanour - and he had a hopeless first 30 minutes or so. Tactics were adjusted during the match - he got more cover - and his performance improved. Yes players should always be motivated - but it demonstrated to me how demotivated some of our defenders have become with our current tactics. I think that Salgados poor form can also be partly attributed to poor tactics - and lack of cover in defensive situations.

3. Pass and move football at all levels is about confidence. Players will only run to collect a pass - or create room for another player - if they feel that the pass will be executed. The more futile runs they make - the less they will be motivated to make these runs. If you have a poor team pattern - this just exacerbates the problem - as passes get misplaced because the player isn't where they should be. Since Kean took over - we have seen multiple instances of players challenging for the same ball - or misplacing passes to players that weren't in their expected position. After a time this must get to players. To be fair to Kean - this improved towards the end of last season - mainly driven by the J Jones - who was always on the move to make or collect passes. This season - no JJ - no real team pattern again.

I totally agree on a number of points you've made. Fitness levels looked appalling especially against Fulham and even as far back as Wolves last season. JJ has left a massive hole in the side which I can not understand how Petrovic was initially advertised as a like for like replacement for him (he's just another Nzonzi). The fullbacks were previously left wide open but now scarily I suppose we don't actually have a fit fullback in the team. In terms of passing into space when a player should be there this was very evident against City (when Petrovic had the ball) but I think that was a mixture of both tactics and lack of effort by a very slow and unfit looking Goodwillie.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Again, sorry I simply don't agree with this view at all. Tactics are one thing but players actually doing the basics on the pitch and messing up are totally another. I suppose you can strip that right back to saying would we (you and I) be able to make an impact with a great manager and brilliant tactics...I'd think not.

In terms of individual effort and commitment my arguement is that over the past couple of games it has horrified me how we have started to roll over and just die. A positive example of how I expect Rovers to be competing is Formica, even at 3 or 4 down he ran his socks off and closed down players - he generally put in 100% effort during his time on the pitch...is this to say that on the flip-side this is simply Kean's doing and wonderful man-management? No, it is the individual doing what each and every paid professional should do. Absolutely Kean should shoulder a huge chunk of the blame but so must the players too. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a thread to save Kean from the chop because I can see in his eyes he is broken and finished, but I can also see on the pitch that the players just aren't trying or capable.

I think our previous manager actually demonstrated how a manager can have a negative impact on player commitment etc. Sam nearly always picked his winnable matches - and seemed prepared to sacrifice defeat to the big boys - saving the players for more winnable matches. We saw this numerous times - with the most stark example being the performance at United just before he was sacked. I don't think Sam deliberately threw those matches - but I think his approach had a definite impact on the players and their approach to certain matches.

Against Chelsea - Kean seemed to employ Sam like tactics - and the players were sent out just to avoid defeat, rather than win a match. Hardly confidence inspiring is it ?

[DE.]

Again, sorry I simply don't agree with this view at all. Tactics are one thing but players actually doing the basics on the pitch and messing up are totally another. I suppose you can strip that right back to saying would we (you and I) be able to make an impact with a great manager and brilliant tactics...I'd think not.

A great manager wouldn't pick you or I to play at Premier League level so that's neither here nor there. As for the basics, a proper manager would train and select players able to do these. There will be some mistakes made in every game - it's human nature to make errors. But if they're happening consistantly the blame must go solely to the manager. If our players aren't doing the basics then it's a) because Kean has them on the pitch in the first place to make those mistakes and B ) because they're not being prepared properly.

In terms of individual effort and commitment my arguement is that over the past couple of games it has horrified me how we have started to roll over and just die. A positive example of how I expect Rovers to be competing is Formica, even at 3 or 4 down he ran his socks off and closed down players - he generally put in 100% effort during his time on the pitch...is this to say that on the flip-side this is simply Kean's doing and wonderful man-management? No, it is the individual doing what each and every paid professional should do. Absolutely Kean should shoulder a huge chunk of the blame but so must the players too. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a thread to save Kean from the chop because I can see in his eyes he is broken and finished, but I can also see on the pitch that the players just aren't trying or capable.

I will agree the players don't seem to be putting in their full effort in a lot of the matches - but if Kean's telling them "everything is positive" and "performances are good" like he repeats ad infinitum to the press then why would they make any extra effort?

[Miker]

Kean has compromised the experienced players in the back to cater to the inexperienced players in attack in the MAJORITY of games.

For the first time this season I saw the team defending as a team in the first half against Man City. However, the problem was that Man City were playing at a tenth of their normal intensity, and Kean should've taken advantage of that in the first half. The team were very cautious in attack though, the whole game plan was give it to Hoilett and see if he can do anything with it. It was plain to see that after the break, all Man City had to do was up the tempo and we we would be swept aside. And what happened? Just that. I commented on it during the game, others commented on it, the commentators commented on it... yet Kean is the only one who seemingly didn't care or notice.

There's no unity within the team, we've just been playing every game as a group of individuals. Players need to cover for each other, players need to support each other, they need to create options and opportunities for each other. THIS IS THE MANAGER'S RESPONSIBILITY. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE MANAGER HAS FAILED TO DO. It's bloddy basics, I can't believe it even needs to be said or pointed out time and time again.

[barry_]

the point that is being made here is simple... when it comes down to standing up and taking responsibility for how a player equips themselves ultimately rests with the player... granted tactics/team moral/managerial input plays a part BUT any player woth his salt shouldn't want to leave the pitch without giving his all and being to say 'I did my best' (who could ask for anything else).

How many players can say they have given their all?

[chris]

After 7 games in 1996 Blackburn had 2 points with a squad including the following:

Flowers

Hendry

Berg

Le Saux

Kenna

Ripley

Wilcox

Sherwood

Flicroft

Gallacher

Sutton

It was certainly Harfords fault h was introducing players like Bohinen, Donis, Holmes, Croft.

It always stops with the manager.

[Miker]

How many players can say they have given their all?

Givet and Salgado have been constantly exposed at full back because they get little to no cover on the wings. N'zonzi no longer has a decent partner such as Jones in midfield and his partnership with the inexperienced (and quite poor) Petrovic simply isn't working very well. Yakubu is receiving little service.

Samba and Hoilett have been fantastic in my opinion and given their all, but even they lost confidence by the end of the City match.

Formica and Rochina have done well, but try too much and are still a bit light weight for this league. Vukcevic has barely played.

Olsson has done well when played.

Goodwillie has been played out of position.

Roberts and Pedersen have been poor as usual.

Dunn has given his all when fit.

Robinson has been solid, but it doesn't matter if he's not keeping clean sheets.

Lowe has done well given his inexperience.

Dann I'm still unsure about.

Am I missing anyone?

A lot of these players have looked good as individuals, but break down in a team setting. This is down to tactical decisions by the manager.

[Pedro]

the point that is being made here is simple... when it comes down to standing up and taking responsibility for how a player equips themselves ultimately rests with the player... granted tactics/team moral/managerial input plays a part BUT any player woth his salt shouldn't want to leave the pitch without giving his all and being to say 'I did my best' (who could ask for anything else).

How many players can say they have given their all?

Thanks for the common sense reply Barry, this is exactly what I am saying. I'm not sure how anyone can overlook the lack of effort that has gone in over the last couple of games or excuse mistakes as simply "being the managers fault". Rather than inept tactics etc. all I can see at the minute are a load of individuals who are unwilling to stand up and be counted, throw their bodies on the line and just do the basics well.