[Archived] Could have Simon Garner made it in the Premier league of the 80's

[den]

You've certainly set the cat among the pigeons with this one, den!

Yes, I knew I would.

I suppose the proper reaction should have been - yeah he was great. It takes an alternative viewpoint to make a discussion.

OK, to continue, Garner was a brilliant goalscorer, we all agree with that. His goalscoring was never a flash in the pan, he scored goals all through his career. He played for 14 seasons for rovers, scoring 194 goals at an average of just under 14 goals/season.

So, question no-one has answered - if his all round play was excellent, and people are right that he could score goals in the top division, that would have surely meant that all the first division clubs would have wanted him. Not one of them in those 14 years came in for him, so the questions again is why?

Could the answer be that he wasn't quite as good as rovers fans think? What other reason could there be?

and before everyone gets carried away, I followed SG all of his career home and away and was as excited as anyone by his goals and performances - especially his feats against Man City.

[Ozz]

The answer is of course we will never know-You seem to think not Den, others seem to think so.

But to answer your question Why Did no one come in for him-Maybe he was just unlucky?

Dalglish did not think he was good enough in 1992, so that would maybe lend credence to your thoughts, but by then he was past his best really.

Sometimes in life success and failure are divided by the thinnest of margins, and it could just be that he was just the wrong player in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think he was good enough, and was unlucky not to have got a chance in the top league-and this is not just down to his goal scoring record-I think his all round game was good enough too!

As you know I saw pretty much most of his career at Rovers too, so I do feel my opinion has some merit.

[den]

The answer is of course we will never know-You seem to think not Den, others seem to think so.

But to answer your question Why Did no one come in for him-Maybe he was just unlucky?

Dalglish did not think he was good enough in 1992, so that would maybe lend credence to your thoughts, but by then he was past his best really.

Sometimes in life success and failure are divided by the thinnest of margins, and it could just be that he was just the wrong player in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think he was good enough, and was unlucky not to have got a chance in the top league-and this is not just down to his goal scoring record-I think his all round game was good enough too!

As you know I saw pretty much most of his career at Rovers too, so I do feel my opinion has some merit.

No you misunderstand me Ozz, I don't know if he would have made it any more than you or anyone else - and I agree he's better than anything we have now, but that's not saying much. I suspect other managers saw something missing from his game that stopped them coming in with a bid. I can't think of any other reason, because strikers are always in demand. Particularly strikers who perform week in, week out for 14 years.

Your opinion has a lot of merit Ozz, because the vast majority agree with you, that SG was good enough to play in top division. When I mentioned how often I'd seen him, I was trying to say how highly I rated the guy, rather then "I know better than you". I'm only trying to raise a debate here Ozz and would never argue blindly that he wouldn't have done well.

[Ozz]

I suspect other managers saw something missing from his game that stopped them coming in with a bid. I can't think of any other reason, because strikers are always in demand.

What do you think potential buyers saw in Simons game to put them off Den?

[m1st]

You've certainly set the cat among the pigeons with this one, den!

Yes, I knew I would.

I suppose the proper reaction should have been - yeah he was great. It takes an alternative viewpoint to make a discussion.

No, den; I wasn't criticising you - just observing how you've provoked a fascinating debate.

You're dead right, of course; it does take an alternative viewpoint to provoke a discussion, specially one as interesting as this to "older supporters" [being one who doesn't feel like that phrase implies, I hate it!].

Over the years, I'm sure we could all come up with a list of players who looked really good players in Division 2/the Championship, yet couldn't quite cut the mustard at the top level - Darren Huckerby springs to mind from recent years, while Rob Earnshaw and Michael Chopra seem to be two such in the present era. Perhaps, even in his pomp, Simon would have been one similar - we'll never know; and there's the fascination of it.

The other question which this discussion begs for me is the one about Cloughie - he allowed his own reputation to be "bigged up" yet, despite how many goals he banged in for Middlesbrough and Sunderland [more than twice Simon's goals per game ratio], no Division 1 manager seems to have bid for him either. He only played twice for England and never scored an international goal.

[den]

No, den; I wasn't criticising you - just observing how you've provoked a fascinating debate.

You're dead right, of course; it does take an alternative viewpoint to provoke a discussion, specially one as interesting as this to "older supporters" [being one who doesn't feel like that phrase implies, I hate it!].

Over the years, I'm sure we could all come up with a list of players who looked really good players in Division 2/the Championship, yet couldn't quite cut the mustard at the top level - Darren Huckerby springs to mind from recent years, while Rob Earnshaw and Michael Chopra seem to be two such in the present era. Perhaps, even in his pomp, Simon would have been one similar - we'll never know; and there's the fascination of it.

The other question which this discussion begs for me is the one about Cloughie - he allowed his own reputation to be "bigged up" yet, despite how many goals he banged in for Middlesbrough and Sunderland [more than twice Simon's goals per game ratio], no Division 1 manager seems to have bid for him either. He only played twice for England and never scored an international goal.

I didn't know about Cloughie m1st. I knew of course of his unbelievable goalscoring record, but didn't realise that most of that was in the second division. BTW, the first game I ever saw at Ewood was in '62 when rovers beat Middlesbrough 3-0 in the FA cup. I' m fairly sure that Clough played that day? Just walking onto the riverside through the middle entrance and seeing all the colour and feeling the atmosphere [the FA cup days were really special then] made me a rovers fans for the rest of my life. [have you been a rovers fan all your life den? - no - not yet!].

Boom Boom.

EDIT:

Apparently Clough was at Sunderland in '62, so I've got something wrong here. I'm sure I saw 'brough at ewood in the fa cup in '62 [Feb?]. If so, did I not actually see Clough play in that game - stato's?

[AllRoverAsia]

Reading this thread has been the only sense of enjoyment I have had from visiting the MB for ages.

I had the pleasure of meeting Simon Garner on a couple of occasions. Once in the Ewood Park dressing room in 1984 (with the rest of the team) before a game v Carlisle. Got a photo to prove it to. Happy days.

[m1st]

I didn't know about Cloughie m1st. I knew of course of his unbelievable goalscoring record, but didn't realise that most of that was in the second division. BTW, the first game I ever saw at Ewood was in '62 when rovers beat Middlesbrough 3-0 in the FA cup. I' m fairly sure that Clough played that day? Just walking onto the riverside through the middle entrance and seeing all the colour and feeling the atmosphere [the FA cup days were really special then] made me a rovers fans for the rest of my life. [have you been a rovers fan all your life den? - no - not yet!].

Boom Boom.

EDIT:

Apparently Clough was at Sunderland in '62, so I've got something wrong here. I'm sure I saw 'brough at ewood in the fa cup in '62 [Feb?]. If so, did I not actually see Clough play in that game - stato's?

Wouldn't claim to be a statto [yet; but I'm working on it! ], den; but, according to Mike Jackman's book, the Middlesbrough team you and 33,713 others saw us beat [2-1, btw; goals from Pickering & Lawther] in the 5th Round of the Cup in 1962 couldn't have included Clough because they'd sold him to Sunderland in 1961.

I really love a discussion like this on the Board, btw. There's no "right" or "wrong"; just fellow-fans sharing opinions. Thanks to chris for starting it, and to you, den, for steering it the way you have done.

[bob fleming]

Found this when looking for Garner 5 Derby 0 on the web. Great stuff.

[Ozz]

Watching those videos again only re-inforce my view of Simons abilities.

Meanwhile, here some more detail on the great man.

[den]

Wouldn't claim to be a statto [yet; but I'm working on it! ], den; but, according to Mike Jackman's book, the Middlesbrough team you and 33,713 others saw us beat [2-1, btw; goals from Pickering & Lawther] in the 5th Round of the Cup in 1962 couldn't have included Clough because they'd sold him to Sunderland in 1961.

I really love a discussion like this on the Board, btw. There's no "right" or "wrong"; just fellow-fans sharing opinions. Thanks to chris for starting it, and to you, den, for steering it the way you have done.

That must be my first game then m1st. Wrong about Clough and the scoreline?

33000 on the Old Ewood park on an FA cup day. It never got better than that. No wonder I was starstruck.

OZZ - if you say Garns could have done it in the first division, then fair do's. We'll never know.

Still I ask though, in those days clubs amost always bought British Players. Strikers were always in demand. Why, in 14 years did no first division club come in for him? Every first division manager would have looked at Garns, so IMO they saw weaknesses in him, otherwise it was an absolute no brainer to give him a miss.

I suggest that the weaknesses they saw were

1] no real pace. Quick over the first yard or two, yes.

2] He was basically a penalty box player. That's where he came to life.

I don't know why no-one came in for him, but there must be reasons.

[LeChuck]

I'll open this post by saying I've never seen him play, so if you wish to disregard the following then feel free.

Would I be acting very disrespectfully if I brought Robert Earnshaw's name into this conversation? He's got a cracking goal scoring record (comparable to Garner's) in the second tier but can't cut it at the highest level. I do appreciate the gulf between the two tiers is probably greater now than it was back then.

[Mattyblue]

Different type of player, but similar story.

But then you look at some of today's PL strikers. Grant Holt, Jay Bothroyd, Jason Roberts, Shola Ameobi and so on, Garns was not inferior.

If we had gone up in '89, I'm sure he would have played in the top division for us. When we finally made it, he was past his best, so he was sold on.

[JAL]

Trying to add some balance to the question Simon Garner wasnt even seen as the best striker in Division 2 during those days.

The play offs at Palace being a good example of Simon Garner were he was a very poor player compared to Wright and Bright of Crystal Palace back then.

[AllRoverAsia]

Trying to add some balance to the question Simon Garner wasnt even seen as the best striker in Division 2 during those days.

The play offs at Palace being a good example of Simon Garner were he was a very poor player compared to Wright and Bright of Crystal Palace back then.

OMG The nightmares will come back...I was working in Haywards Heath at the time and got a ticket from a work mate - a Palace fan. I was sat amongst Palace fans - almost got kicked out for reacting when Miller shot over the bar.

Garner was getting on a bit then - fags and booze probably taking their toll. Wright was just emerging and Bright I never really rated.

[m1st]

OMG The nightmares will come back...I was working in Haywards Heath at the time and got a ticket from a work mate - a Palace fan. I was sat amongst Palace fans - almost got kicked out for reacting when Miller shot over the bar.

Garner was getting on a bit then - fags and booze probably taking their toll. Wright was just emerging and Bright I never really rated.

Thanks a bunch, ARA! After 22 years, I'd more or less wiped that Saturday from my memory bank till just now!

I remember queueing in the pouring rain after the first leg, full of the optimism that a 3-1 "half time" lead gives you, for tickets for me and my pal Bernard who lives down there. It was bad enough being with the home fans on the Saturday afternoon; it must have been awful for you being stuck with their fans.

[Mattyblue]

Ian Wright became a top level striker, he scored 130 goals in about 200 games at Arsenal.

Not really a fair comparison.

[AllRoverAsia]

Thanks a bunch, ARA! After 22 years, I'd more or less wiped that Saturday from my memory bank till just now!

I remember queueing in the pouring rain after the first leg, full of the optimism that a 3-1 "half time" lead gives you, for tickets for me and my pal Bernard who lives down there. It was bad enough being with the home fans on the Saturday afternoon; it must have been awful for you being stuck with their fans.

After the game at Palace when I came out of the Ground surrounded by Palace fans I remember that I was so p***ed off that I tore the match programme up, threw it on the ground and stamped on it. Remember getting some odd looks. Then had to get a train south to Haywards Heath full of happy Palace fans plus major stick at work the next day.

[Doug]

I was at that game, how bad when Miller blasted over early in first half, sure we'd have won if that had gone in!!! Wright n Bright tore us a new one that day. As for Simon Garner, he was a poacher, natural goal scorer, nippy over first 5 yards, Speedy vaguely reminded me of him and he was another hero! One simon Garner, there's only one....

[AllRoverAsia]

There's only one Simon Garner.

In advance of my Son's 10th Birthday I wrote to Bobby Saxton and he invited us over for the game v Carlisle in 1984. I think we won 4-0.

Got a picture of Simon with my son in the team changing room at Ewood about 40 minutes before kick off. Nice man and so was Bobby Saxton.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

It is always difficult to compare players you idolise with reality.

In Garners case - I think it was just fate. What summed it up for me - the day he scored 5 against Derby (what a day that was) Caldwell scored 5 for Bolton as well.

Look at Keeley - unlucky enough to make his Everton debut against Liverpool - one sending off later - and he never went onto the heights that he possibly could have.

Brotherston was another that I thought could have played at first division level - again just not meant to be.

[Sparky Marky]

Who's your son mate? He looks familiar and he's exactly my age.

[AllRoverAsia]

Who's your son mate? He looks familiar and he's exactly my age.

He's Paul

[Doug]

Brotherston was a joy to watch, how mant times would he beat the same player, great close control. Talking of wingers does anyone remember jonny price and bobby hoy? My memory tells me we had a glut of midgets playing ob the wing!! gordon taylor was another and Svarc (Bobby?). David 'Waggy' Wagstaffe, was he the first player in this country to get the 'new' red card?

[AllRoverAsia]

And Mike Harrison and Mike Ferguson - remember the water bucket at home v Coventry.