[Archived] 29th October - Norwich Preview

[scotty_beam_me_up]

Only if its intentional well he did control the ball and then run out of the penalty area with the ball, did he not.

As for 'if its only intentional' where on earth do you get that one from.... Andy Gray!

The offence is deliberate handball nothing more nothing less. All this talk about whether he controlled or not is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it hits his hand rolls up his arm and down his other arm. If it's not deliberate it's not an offence. If it hadn't been given it wouldn't have got a mention.

I was at the game and would like to say the Norwich fans I met were top notch yesterday. They couldn't have been nicer before the game and didn't gloat after. And for the record none of them thought it was a penalty either.

[JAL]

The offence is deliberate handball nothing more nothing less. All this talk about whether he controlled or not is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it hits his hand rolls up his arm and down his other arm. If it's not deliberate it's not an offence. If it hadn't been given it wouldn't have got a mention.

/quote]

It has a massive influence to the referee in making his decision as it adds further weight to him pointing to the spot.

[Doug]

The damming bit for N'Zonzi is unfortunately, that he ran out of the penalty area with the ball. Cant see how anyone can disagree that hes gained an unfair advantage from this after the ball had hit his hand.

As for Refs not giving them, each case is different.

Is that the wording refs are supposed to use 'unfair advantage'? I thought hand ball had to be considered 100% deliberate before it is penalised? (ie pre-meditated). Was it hand to ball or ball to hand?

Edit : Sorry, hadn't read beam me ups comments.

[JAL]

Is that the wording refs are supposed to use 'unfair advantage'? I thought hand ball had to be considered 100% deliberate before it is penalised? (ie pre-meditated). Was it hand to ball or ball to hand?

Edit : Sorry, hadn't read beam me ups comments.

Did it hit his hand ? Yes or No.

[Doug]

Did it hit his hand ? Yes or No.

Give me a tougher one!

[Amo]

Stop, JAL. Please. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Nzonzi never knew anything about it when the ball hit his hand. You can't give a penalty for a total fortuity.

[JAL]

Stop, JAL. Please. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Nzonzi never knew anything about it when the ball hit his hand. You can't give a penalty for a total fortuity.

In a fans eyes but not in the eyes of a referees.

Clearly there is lack of understanding here into just why this penalty was given tried to explain give up now.

Just to end it was a penalty, and the referee made the right decision, even if many on here dont want to believe it, more pity them.

[Majiball]

The guys on MOTD change their tune all the time. I'm sure I've heard Shearer and Hansen saying before if you raise your arms in the penalty area then your asking for it. Shearer obviously wants to support his pal.

Harsh it may have been (no english footie in Scotland so I haven't seen it) but if you raise your arms your asking for trouble especially with a young inexperienced official like Taylor.

[Doug]

The guys on MOTD change their tune all the time. I'm sure I've heard Shearer and Hansen saying before if you raise your arms in the penalty area then your asking for it. Shearer obviously wants to support his pal.

Harsh it may have been (no english footie in Scotland so I haven't seen it) but if you raise your arms your asking for trouble especially with a young inexperienced official like Taylor.

HANDBALL MUST BE 100% DELIBERATE BEFORE IT IS PENALISED

'Ball to hand', is the well-known phrase used by Referees to describe an accidental 'handball'. It is usually obvious to Referees when a player purposefully moves his hand (or arm) towards the ball with the intention of gaining an unfair advantage over his opponents by handling the ball. Deliberately handling the ball implies a full consciousness of the nature of one's act and its consequences.

If the ball accidentally touches a player's hand, it is immaterial if the ball subsequently falls to that player's advantage. For example, if the ball 'accidentally' hits an attacking player's hand or arm, and then neatly falls to his feet - and the attacking player immediately kicks the ball and scores a goal - the goal should be allowed - because the attacking player did not 'deliberately' handle the ball (and had therefore NOT infringed Law 12). Referees certainly have their work 'cut-out' after allowing goals of this nature to count - nevertheless, they are legal goals. Following goal scoring situations of this nature, the Referee is advised to sprint quickly towards the centre circle to distance himself from inevitable moans from the defending team.

Got this off a refs website. Not quite the scenario, but close enough. It is a very tough law to argue about as we all view things differently.

[Miker]

I don't understand the point of the handball debate. It's up to the ref to decide. It hit his upper arm, end of. A more sensible ref would have probably let it go, as it was completely down to luck and no unfair advantage was obtained by N'zonzi. A less sensible ref would just see the hand to ball contact and blow for the penalty. Unfortunately we had a less sensible ref.

N'zonzi shouldn't have been flapping his arms around and he knew it himself once the penalty was given. Mistakes happen, he'll learn, we move on.

[Tris]

Lot's here don't want it both ways, just their own way. Just what will all these protesters do should things actually take an up turn.

Your point remains valid even if there isn't any upturn in the next fixture.

Chelsea is the last chance saloon for protests at Ewood.

If he's still here after that game then everyone needs to bury the hatchet. 100% support to keep the team in the Premier League.

The next home game won't be until December 3rd against Swansea, and we'll need the points like never before.

If fans continue to protest at that stage and not give 100% support to the club and the team they love - before, during and after the matches - then they will deserve to have their names added to Blackburn Rovers PL obituary, along with Steve Kean.

[dubdubdub]

Hand ball in the penalty area is a penalty which seems to be something thats very hard for some our supporters to understand dont know why as its clear as day.

The rule actually states that it's only a foul if it's deliberate. Clear as day and not hard to understand.

[tonyoz]

There was some serious lip licking going on at the full time whistle by our Steve. Any of you pshchiatrists know what that's about? Dry mouth=stress?

It wouldn't surprise me. I was suffering the same thing but I bit a chunk out of the armchair instead.

[Miker]

If fans continue to protest at that stage and not give 100% support to the club and the team they love - before, during and after the matches - then they will deserve to have their names added to Blackburn Rovers PL obituary, along with Steve Kean.

Why? What negative effect has it had on any of the games?

[Veevs]

There was some serious lip licking going on at the full time whistle by our Steve. Any of you pshchiatrists know what that's about? Dry mouth=stress?

Although sometimes seen as a sign someone is lieing.. I would say in this context licking of the lips is a natural pacifier (best text book example is a kid sucking its thumb after an incident) it is just a simple recovery mechanic after a stressful event.

Anyways back to the game.. simple way of looking at it I know but the penalty was given, the end result was a draw, we played well against a team plying its trade in the championship last season and overall it does not change our position.

Even playing well we do not have the luck and some managers (not that I classify Kean as one) fail simply for that reason and in Keans case tactically he has got things utterly wrong for most of his tenure.

In this instance the biggest issue for me was the changes he made to the side, when playing badly this season he has been reluctant to make any changes, but while playing well he seems to like to dabble generally in a negative way. The moves he made had an immediate negative impact on the side, with both of our main attacking threats taken off and all pace removed from our team beyond defence the opposition where allowed to push forward more with less of a worry that they would be hit on the counter. One change would of been enough but from a psychology (in terms of team and opposition) and football perspective the changes made had to of been seen as to tighten up and hold onto the lead move (i.e. a negative move). As a defender your confidence is bound to of been given a boost as just when you start to tire and your concentration starts to faulter you find yourself up against players who are never going to be able to use trickery, guile or pace against you.

I must say it is concerning looking at our primary strike force, we had no one with pace available on the bench to take advantage of tiring legs towards the end of the game (in fact not one out and out striker with any pace whatsoever) and only really Simon who could be considered an impact sub. Also our squad is looking pretty thin in terms of defenders available, one injury out there and we would of been in real trouble with just Hanley available, this is looking like a big theme for the season ahead and unless player fitness improves (in terms of injuries) I can see this becoming a massive issue late in the season when we would be expecting this level of injury crisis.

I said this in the summer, at the start of the season and will repeat again.. we MUST buy a utility player in the next transfer window, we have always had a selection available to us and while many of these players are considered unfashionable (mainly as most do not have the skill to of made it in one position) not having them really hurts our flexibility and last season we had Chimb (up to christmas), Andrews, Emerton and importantly PJ.

On a more positive note, Clement seems to of made a decent impact especially with Nzonzi who has looked much improved, although he does have a tendancy to be a form player who has a run of good games followed by some awful ones in this instance it really does look like the effects of better coaching.

I do find it amusing reading some of the more positive people on here exclaim how we got very unlucky.. especially as I am sure these are the same people who claimed you made your own luck in the Arsenal game.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

I do find it amusing reading some of the more positive people on here exclaim how we got very unlucky.. especially as I am sure these are the same people who claimed you made your own luck in the Arsenal game.

I find it amusing that many bang on and on and on about how 'lucky' we were against Arsenal yet want two disgraceful decisions against Everton and Norwich to accepted as 'part of the game' or the managers's fault.

[Stuart]

I find it amusing that many bang on and on and on about how 'lucky' we were against Arsenal yet want two disgraceful decisions against Everton and Norwich to accepted as 'part of the game' or the managers's fault.

But that does make sense.

Taking it to extremes to make a point, Kean is either:

1) An excellent PL manager who consistently has bad luck. The Arsenal game is clearly his 'norm' whereas the other bad (sorry, positive) results were all down to misfortune.

2) A very poor manager whose 'norm' is awful results combined with soul-destroying losses of leads late in games. The Arsenal game being a lucky result against an out of form team who still scored three goals against us.

Your post seems to describe those in 2).

[arbitro]

In a fans eyes but not in the eyes of a referees.

Clearly there is lack of understanding here into just why this penalty was given tried to explain give up now.

Just to end it was a penalty, and the referee made the right decision, even if many on here dont want to believe it, more pity them.

As an ex referee of 23 years (and lots of pressure games) the only criteria the referee should use is whether or not it was a deliberate act. There is a lot of nonsense perpetuated about hand to ball, gaining an advantage etc etc. None of these are mentioned in the actual handball law. In the imposters post match interview he said the referee told him that N'Zonzi was looking at the ball, in other words he deemed it deliberate as N'Zonzi knew where the ball was. The fact is N'Zonzi DIDN'T know where the ball was so how can that be delberate?

I was at the game and that is exactly how I called it in real time. Having seen it since it is quite simple for me - definately not a penalty. I made several calls yesterday to senior refereeing figures in this country and not one of them said it was a penalty.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

But that does make sense.

Taking it to extremes to make a point, Kean is either:

1) An excellent PL manager who consistently has bad luck. The Arsenal game is clearly his 'norm' whereas the other bad (sorry, positive) results were all down to misfortune.

2) A very poor manager whose 'norm' is awful results combined with soul-destroying losses of leads late in games. The Arsenal game being a lucky result against an out of form team who still scored three goals against us.

Your post seems to describe those in 2).

It's a simple point which I wouldn't think needs too much explanation. I think you have possibly over analysed it.

[broadsword]

Arbitro = being judge. [latin]

Makes sense. :-)

[Silencio]

If fans continue to protest at that stage and not give 100% support to the club and the team they love - before, during and after the matches - then they will deserve to have their names added to Blackburn Rovers PL obituary, along with Steve Kean.

???

[Stuart]

It's a simple point which I wouldn't think needs too much explanation. I think you have possibly over analysed it.

Quite possibly.

[beatrix]

Realistically a point away from home is worth having, the circumstances were typical, we got ourselves into a good position to win the

game. A combination of poor decisions, poor tactics, norwich trying harder resulted in a draw, typical football situation.

A draw is by no means a disaster but obviously 3 points would have been handy. Kean does not have the experience to handle that type

of situation IMO.

[LeChuck]

It definitely wasn't a penalty, so we do have a right to feel luck wasn't on our side.

However, I'm pretty firm believer in the saying "you make your own luck", and this case is an excellent example of that.

All players are told to "play to the whistle". It's a simple rule that everyone should follow. N'Zonzi didn't do this, instead he puts his arms in the air to claim for a foul. If he doesn't do that, the ball doesn't hit his arm and we don't concede a penalty.

I'm not saying claiming for a free kick deserves giving away a penalty, but if you start throwing your arms up in the air in the box then you shouldn't be too surprised if the ball hits it. When that happens, you always leave it open to chance that the referee could deem it deliberate.

With the second goal too, if you give someone that much time and space to shoot from just outside the area, you risk the chance of it taking a deflection and going in. Both goals, despite the bad luck involved, were easily preventable.

[den]

Going back to the handball debate, well the laws of the game say that it has to be deliberate. The ball to hand argument is just some peoples way of judging whether it's intentional or not, but in fact it has nothing to do with it. You can still move your hand to the ball unintentionally.