[Archived] 29th October - Norwich Preview

[RibbleValleyRover]

Going back to the handball debate, well the laws of the game say that it has to be deliberate. The ball to hand argument is just some peoples way of judging whether it's intentional or not, but in fact it has nothing to do with it. You can still move your hand to the ball unintentionally.

To be safe your better not raising your hands at all, that way there is no decision to make.

On the luck issue we have had plenty of luck this season going in our favour. The Arsenal result, Newcastle in the cup should have had a stonewall penalty and a sending off of a rovers player (Samba iirc?). Then there was the Pedersen freekick that took a wicked deflection in that game also. Norwich should have had a penalty in our most recent game. 'Luck' balances itself out over the course of a season.

[Tris]

???

What I was trying to say bish, is that there has to be a moment when the "greater good" switches from wanting to get rid of Kean, to having a totally united front and making Fortress Ewood contribute to our PL survival.

When we play Swansea at home on December 3rd, it will have been 11 weeks since the first protest - more than a quarter of the season.

If Steve Kean is still the manager, then the protests will not have achieved the desired result. Continuing at that stage of the season will only have one effect - prolonging a public show of disunity which will do the opposite of helping to keep the club in the PL.

[BuckyRover]

To be safe your better not raising your hands at all, that way there is no decision to make.

On the luck issue we have had plenty of luck this season going in our favour. The Arsenal result, Newcastle in the cup should have had a stonewall penalty and a sending off of a rovers player (Samba iirc?). Then there was the Pedersen freekick that took a wicked deflection in that game also. Norwich should have had a penalty in our most recent game. 'Luck' balances itself out over the course of a season.

But that is in direct contrast to the other famous adage "the luck always goes against you when you are down at the bottom".

[JAL]

As an ex referee of 23 years (and lots of pressure games) the only criteria the referee should use is whether or not it was a deliberate act. There is a lot of nonsense perpetuated about hand to ball, gaining an advantage etc etc. None of these are mentioned in the actual handball law. In the imposters post match interview he said the referee told him that N'Zonzi was looking at the ball, in other words he deemed it deliberate as N'Zonzi knew where the ball was. The fact is N'Zonzi DIDN'T know where the ball was so how can that be delberate?

I was at the game and that is exactly how I called it in real time. Having seen it since it is quite simple for me - definately not a penalty. I made several calls yesterday to senior refereeing figures in this country and not one of them said it was a penalty.

You cant go and control the ball with your hand and run out of the penalty area with the ball without being penalised. If the referee has said he says NZonzi is/was looking at the ball, then it is a deliberate act in the referees eyes, surely as an ex referee you'd make the same call.

If the referee had let play go on what would the assessor for the ref gone and said and how would he have been viewed if he'd have bottled that decision.

Going back to the handball debate, well the laws of the game say that it has to be deliberate. The ball to hand argument is just some peoples way of judging whether it's intentional or not, but in fact it has nothing to do with it. You can still move your hand to the ball unintentionally.

As always well said den.

[Amo]

You cant go and control the ball with your hand and run out of the penalty area with the ball without being penalised. If the referee has said he says NZonzi is/was looking at the ball, then it is a deliberate act in the referees eyes, surely as an ex referee you'd make the same call.

But he didn't control the ball with his hand!

THIS is controlling the ball with your hand:

[arbitro]

You cant go and control the ball with your hand and run out of the penalty area with the ball without being penalised. If the referee has said he says NZonzi is/was looking at the ball, then it is a deliberate act in the referees eyes, surely as an ex referee you'd make the same call.

If the referee had let play go on what would the assessor for the ref gone and said and how would he have been viewed if he'd have bottled that decision.

As always well said den.

You can control the ball if it isn't deliberate, that is the key word. The fact N'Zonzi definately wasn't looking at the ball makes it unintentional for me. I don't know what the referee saw and I can be alsmost sure that he will not be backed by the assessor, delegate, coaches and the majority of his colleagues.

On what I saw in real time (albeit from a different view) I wouldn't have given a penalty on Saturday.

Having made high profile errors myself and being made aware of them whilst watching the DVD the following day I found it better to ring the manager of the aggrieved club and admit to my error. That usually calmed the waters and led to a better relationship next time I came across that team and manager.

[JAL]

It was accidental in my eyes, 'unintentional' 'ball to hand' and any other football phrase you can think of, but the ball dropped to his feet and he then ran out out of the penalty area with the ball with his feet with no opposing player touching the ball in the mean time.

Say it again the same situation centre of the field, the referee would blow for a direct free kick on N'Zonzi. So same scenario in the penalty area a direct free kick means a penalty kick.

[den]

You can control the ball if it isn't deliberate, that is the key word.

Yes, it really is quite simple. Controlling the ball isn't a consideration if you didn't mean to handle it.

[JAL]

You can control the ball if it isn't deliberate, that is the key word. The fact N'Zonzi definately wasn't looking at the ball makes it unintentional for me. I don't know what the referee saw and I can be alsmost sure that he will not be backed by the assessor, delegate, coaches and the majority of his colleagues.

On what I saw in real time (albeit from a different view) I wouldn't have given a penalty on Saturday.

Having made high profile errors myself and being made aware of them whilst watching the DVD the following day I found it better to ring the manager of the aggrieved club and admit to my error. That usually calmed the waters and led to a better relationship next time I came across that team and manager.

The laws of the game state that an outfield player can only use his hands to take a throw-in, where does it say you can control the ball with your hand if it is not deliberate.

[den]

To be safe your better not raising your hands at all, that way there is no decision to make.

Your hands are all over the place during a game RVR. It's impossible to keep them by your side - just ask Keef.

[Al]

What I was trying to say bish, is that there has to be a moment when the "greater good" switches from wanting to get rid of Kean, to having a totally united front and making Fortress Ewood contribute to our PL survival.

When we play Swansea at home on December 3rd, it will have been 11 weeks since the first protest - more than a quarter of the season.

If Steve Kean is still the manager, then the protests will not have achieved the desired result. Continuing at that stage of the season will only have one effect - prolonging a public show of disunity which will do the opposite of helping to keep the club in the PL.

Sorry Tris but it has now reached a stage when I will never accept Kean. He has openly goaded the fans, been confrontational, embarassed his club and it's supporters, pretended that he has the backing of the majority of the fans when he knows it is not true and constantly lied to his employers and the fans. How can you expect anyone to warm to that weasel? I will not spend another penny on the club whilst he is still manager and will campaign for his removal as long as he is here.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Say it again the same situation centre of the field, the referee would blow for a direct free kick on N'Zonzi. So same scenario in the penalty area a direct free kick means a penalty kick.

Same can be said for almost any 'incident' JAL and we all know it doesn't happen.

There is one simple thing to this and that is the ref went ' with the crowd cry of 'handball' despite the b/s he has come out with, as IMO there is not a cat in hells chance he saw it clearly (strange how the linesman didn't give it akin to the Liverpool one if it was that obvious)

As others have said though, Nzonzi was a numpty for standing like a Scarecrow in the middle of the flatlands in narwich.

It might be just me and I wasn't at the match but Nzonzi just feels to me to be our weak point/position at the moment and costing us more than anybody else.

[den]

The laws of the game state that an outfield player can only use his hands to take a throw-in, where does it say you can control the ball with your hand if it is not deliberate.

The laws of the game only say that hand ball has to be deliberate for a free kick or penalty to be awarded. Where the ball lands is irrelevant to the laws.

[LeChuck]

It might be just me and I wasn't at the match but Nzonzi just feels to me to be our weak point/position at the moment and costing us more than anybody else.

He's winning the MOM poll so far...

Also, his stats are excellent. 9 out of 10 tackles won and 71 out of 77 passes completed. We don't have another player who comes close to that standard.

He was stupid for putting his arms in the air, but otherwise he's possibly our best player at the moment. Far from being the problem, if he's ever injured for a sustained period of time then we're screwed because he's our only good defensive midfielder.

[Al]

The laws of the game state that an outfield player can only use his hands to take a throw-in, where does it say you can control the ball with your hand if it is not deliberate.

Please stop it Jal. You are making a fool of yourself. Just read the handball law. It plainly states that to be penalised handball has to be deliberate. Laws don't tell you what you can do, only what you are not allowed to do.

[arbitro]

The laws of the game state that an outfield player can only use his hands to take a throw-in, where does it say you can control the ball with your hand if it is not deliberate.

You're not going to let go of this but what I will say is that (like most laws) it says in the opinion of the referee. I can almost guarantee that his opinion on Saturday will have cost him several marks. If you were the referee on Saturday and in your opinion you deemed that handball deliberate then, with the courage of your conviction you would have given a penalty. In a lot of other peoples minds you would have been wrong but you as the referee on the day would make the call.

There is no mention of controlling the ball in the law in relation to handball. I will repeat the only criteria for the referee to decide is whether or not he deems it deliberate.

[JAL]

Please stop it Jal. You are making a fool of yourself. Just read the handball law. It plainly states that to be penalised handball has to be deliberate. Laws don't tell you what you can do, only what you are not allowed to do.

The referee says it deliberate should we not stop at that.

[Al]

The referee says it deliberate should we not stop at that.

Bloody hell Jal do you never give in? Only God (and the Pope) never err. If the ref always got it right there would be no discussion would there?

[Glenn]

From Fifa's own guide to interpreting the laws.

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with

the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into

consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an

infringement

• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.)

counts as an infringement

• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an

infringement

Ergo. The ref either saw it as deliberate in some way we didn't, or he got it wrong. Simple as. Ultimately, it was a rule of game broken, not the competition, so it's never going to be undone.

[Ozz]

Anybody who went got some photos of the day at Carrow Road that they can put up? Makes the thread a whole less dry and depressing! Ground, away fans pub etc.

[thenodrog]

As an ex referee of 23 years (and lots of pressure games) the only criteria the referee should use is whether or not it was a deliberate act. There is a lot of nonsense perpetuated about hand to ball, gaining an advantage etc etc. None of these are mentioned in the actual handball law. In the imposters post match interview he said the referee told him that N'Zonzi was looking at the ball, in other words he deemed it deliberate as N'Zonzi knew where the ball was. The fact is N'Zonzi DIDN'T know where the ball was so how can that be delberate?

I was at the game and that is exactly how I called it in real time. Having seen it since it is quite simple for me - definately not a penalty. I made several calls yesterday to senior refereeing figures in this country and not one of them said it was a penalty.

Agreed... but it was 10 times more a penalty than the one awarded to Everton in August. That was damned good defending by Samba penalised wrongly just cos Fellaini didn't even jump. Saturdays ref got it wrong fair enough but Lee Mason's judgement should ensure that his Premier League days are behind him. Prob would have done too if it had happened to MU.

[arbitro]

Agreed... but it was 10 times more a penalty than the one awarded to Everton in August. That was damned good defending by Samba penalised wrongly just cos Fellaini didn't even jump. Saturdays ref got it wrong fair enough but Lee Mason's judgement should ensure that his Premier League days are behind him. Prob would have done too if it had happened to MU.

I agree mate. In the last two seasons I have seen Mason ruin two potentially good games at Ewood (Wigan and Everton) through a sheer lack of understanding of the game. Sometimes referees can help the flow of the game by being selective and allowing some physical contact. Mason doesn't appreciate this.

[Miker]

From Fifa's own guide to interpreting the laws.

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with

the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into

consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an

infringement

• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.)

counts as an infringement

• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an

infringement

Ergo. The ref either saw it as deliberate in some way we didn't, or he got it wrong. Simple as. Ultimately, it was a rule of game broken, not the competition, so it's never going to be undone.

It comes down to how the ref interprets it at the time like with any other decision. Where the ball has made contact with any part of the arm/hand it's always going to be 50/50 whether the ref gives it or not. It's likely that it was given because the arms were up in the air and the ref read that to be deliberate. It was unfortunate, but could've been avoided and at the end of the day every team is at the mercy of the ref's decisions.

[thenodrog]

What I was trying to say bish, is that there has to be a moment when the "greater good" switches from wanting to get rid of Kean, to having a totally united front and making Fortress Ewood contribute to our PL survival.

When we play Swansea at home on December 3rd, it will have been 11 weeks since the first protest - more than a quarter of the season.

If Steve Kean is still the manager, then the protests will not have achieved the desired result. Continuing at that stage of the season will only have one effect - prolonging a public show of disunity which will do the opposite of helping to keep the club in the PL.

Pretty much like the trip to Pune then Tris.

Just as an aside why do you tolerate godawful managers and yet criticise proper ones who get results Tris? You openly backed the useless Paul Ince and now you want us to tolerate Kean. Both of whom do not possess the necessary qualities to ever be succesful managers at this level. I'd hardly say you were bothered about the greater good and showing a united front when you constantly vilified the 'fat slug' who actually did manage to make Ewood a fortress and off a nigh on impossible budget too.

Football is the ultimate results based business Tris plain and simple. Constantly mystifies me why so many struggle with that.

[Guest Wen Y Hu]

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