[Archived] New Mortgage

[J*B]

Philip, in your opinion, can you give me a rating */10 of how in the ###### we are, should we finish 18th this season. Send it over PM if you wish.

10 being likely to go under. 1 being nothing to worry about.

[Rovers_786]

please can someone PM me the document to me on the forum thank you.

[BangkokRover]

However virtually every other club in the Premier League has some form of mortgage out. Clubs like Wigan and Everton have taken out mortgages in August for the exact same thing as us, and secured against the Sky money for this season. But I'm sure you agree that Dave Whelan is not trying to get Wigan bankrupt and relegated (even if he does choose to persist with Martinez).

I think you are missing my point here Miker. I have no problem with Rovers having debt, as you have said most football clubs have debt, so do most businesses. But surely it's how you manage the debt.

Most people have mortgages to buy their house but they don't usually default or lapse the mortgage before taking out a new one.

[Mercer]

Is that to suggest that he cant be sacked because he'll spill the beans if they do.

Allegedly

My take on this is that if it goes tits up the Pune loons can pretty much walk away

and the club will carry the debt.

Please tell me I'm wrong.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case looking at the way things have been set-up!

Philip, in your opinion, can you give me a rating */10 of how in the ###### we are, should we finish 18th this season. Send it over PM if you wish.

10 being likely to go under. 1 being nothing to worry about.

IMO, 7.5, however, all the leading players would have to be sold.

[Miker]

I think you are missing my point here Miker. I have no problem with Rovers having debt, as you have said most football clubs have debt, so do most businesses. But surely it's how you manage the debt.

Most people have mortgages to buy their house but they don't usually default or lapse the mortgage before taking out a new one.

BangkokRover, you might find this article interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/04/football-league-premier-league-payments

[rebelmswar]

please can someone PM me the document to me on the forum thank you.

Thought it would have been faxed to you personally.

[brfcfan1975]

For the sake of the club, the fans and it's people GET OUT NOW!

[BangkokRover]

BangkokRover, you might find this article interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/04/football-league-premier-league-payments

Sorry which part are you interested in?

[BlueMonday]

Received. Cheers Miker

[Elegia]

So the mortgage is secured on all future income and we were seen as a safe bet for Venkys to be able to get the loan.

When we are relegated, income will fall, the bank will not see us as a safe bet anymore, call in the loan and we are careering down the proverbial brown creek paddle-less.

[philipl]

Philip, in your opinion, can you give me a rating */10 of how in the ###### we are, should we finish 18th this season. Send it over PM if you wish.

10 being likely to go under. 1 being nothing to worry about.

Got to be greater than 5.

Close to 10 if current debt really is more than £40m in which case the Directors need to be taking personal legal advice from ENGLISH solicitors now. Protesting that even the most inconsequential of decisions are taken in Mrs Desai's private office is no defence if you hold the post of Director under English Law.

Miker, I couldn't give a damn about the new mortgages at other clubs. The Trust explicitly set up the sale so Rovers would not need one so something has gone horribly wrong.

[Miker]

Sorry which part are you interested in?

"Given that it is all guaranteed income, it could theoretically all be assigned to a lender in return for an up-front lump sum. The Premier League believes that in practice few clubs are able to agree big deals with lenders, since they fear catastrophic losses if a collapse such as Portsmouth's occurs. However, Newcastle United's ability to maintain an intact Premier League squad in the Championship last season guaranteed their return to the top flight and its wealth. There is a danger that lenders may be open to the argument that their existing investment is safer if they extend it with more cash to push for immediate promotion to the Premier League."

[BangkokRover]

So the mortgage is secured on all future income and we were seen as a safe bet for Venkys to be able to get the loan.

When we are relegated, income will fall, the bank will not see us as a safe bet anymore, call in the loan and we are careering down the proverbial brown creek paddle-less.

One part that no one has mentioned how much this new mortgage is worth?

[philipl]

One part that no one has mentioned how much this new mortgage is worth?

I have posted the security is worth £100m- the income for 2011/2 plus the parachute payments. That is explicit from the extract Miker posted based on current projected Sky revenues for the Sky contract period we have just entered.

It does not mean the debt is £100m or that Barclays would allow £1 of debt for every £1 of security.

I would imagine the legal and banking fees for setting this new mortgage up were pretty horrendous as well.

[Miker]

One part that no one has mentioned how much this new mortgage is worth?

That's because nobody knows unless someone gets a hold of the other parts of the mortgage document that is not available to the public.

[BangkokRover]

"Given that it is all guaranteed income, it could theoretically all be assigned to a lender in return for an up-front lump sum. The Premier League believes that in practice few clubs are able to agree big deals with lenders, since they fear catastrophic losses if a collapse such as Portsmouth's occurs. However, Newcastle United's ability to maintain an intact Premier League squad in the Championship last season guaranteed their return to the top flight and its wealth. There is a danger that lenders may be open to the argument that their existing investment is safer if they extend it with more cash to push for immediate promotion to the Premier League."

So if Rovers go down Venkys could take out ANOTHER loan/mortgage which would allow them to fun the return to the Premiership or are you saying this current mortgage is to protect Rovers for when we do go down? I would suggest that we do not hold enough information to say which if either of them is true.

[liam]

I have now sent the documents to everyone that's requested them.

Could you send the document to [email protected] thanks

[AndyC]

has anybody sent this information over to premier league?

[BangkokRover]

has anybody sent this information over to premier league?

To do what?

Venkys/Rovers have done nothing illegal

Also this information is not secret its public knowledge and can be purchased from Companies House by anyone.

[philipl]

has anybody sent this information over to premier league?

I believe there is an obligation for PL member clubs to send all Companies House filings to the PL.

Worth pointing out I was checking Companies House until end September fairly regularly looking for this mortgage being filed and only spotted it yesterday after not having looked for 6 weeks.

[Miker]

So if Rovers go down Venkys could take out ANOTHER loan/mortgage which would allow them to fun the return to the Premiership or are you saying this current mortgage is to protect Rovers for when we do go down? I would suggest that we do not hold enough information to say which if either of them is true.

I would say that there are a number of protections in place for us if we are relegated, this potentially being one of them and the "clauses in player contracts that would lead to significant reductions in player salaries in the event of relegation", which I am quoting from the June 2010 accounts submitted by John Williams.

This alone gives me some hope that in the event of relegation, it will be a salvageable situation, albeit a difficult one.

I can't make any real conclusions one way or another about our current financial state until Venky's file their accounts for this year. We can then compare and contrast it to the previous year's accounts under the Trust. I would only urge people not to jump to conclusions about our financial state without more substantial proof as I think that's just wrong.

Also I think that article would answer your question about defaulting mortgages, as I would assume that the future income from Sky for the 2010/2011 was surrendered to the bank in favour of a lump sum that Venky's then used for their January signings (and possible other expenses). I am assuming that this amount would have been repaid the moment the Sky money came through at the end of the season.

[dazmaz]

Would the terms of sale not be made public? If they are, and they show Venkeys have not followed the terms of said deal, would there be anything that could be done in a legal standpoint?

All this debt isnt good for us seeing as we are Championship bound. Thats the bottom line.

Also, to people posting email addresses. This is a public forum, thus you are leaving yourself open to spam. The PM system is there for a reason

I would say that there are a number of protections in place for us if we are relegated, this potentially being one of them and the "clauses in player contracts that would lead to significant reductions in player salaries in the event of relegation", which I am quoting from the June 2010 accounts submitted by John Williams.

This alone gives me some hope that in the event of relegation, it will be a salvageable situation, albeit a difficult one.

I can't make any real conclusions one way or another about our current financial state until Venky's file their accounts for this year. We can then compare and contrast it to the previous year's accounts under the Trust. I would only urge people not to jump to conclusions about our financial state without more substantial proof as I think that's just wrong.

Also I think that article would answer your question about defaulting mortgages, as I would assume that the future income from Sky for the 2010/2011 was surrendered to the bank in favour of a lump sum that Venky's then used for their January signings (and possible other expenses). I am assuming that this amount would have been repaid the moment the Sky money came through at the end of the season.

How many of said clauses where removed when players were given new contracts? Screw 2010, this is 2011 and many things have changed since last year

[BangkokRover]

I would say that there are a number of protections in place for us if we are relegated, this potentially being one of them and the "clauses in player contracts that would lead to significant reductions in player salaries in the event of relegation", which I am quoting from the June 2010 accounts submitted by John Williams.

The same clauses that where removed in all new contracts handed out by Kean?

[Stuart]

I'd respect him if he can't due to FF implications, but I'd be interested to hear Fernhurst Rover's view on the financials.

[BangkokRover]

Also I think that article would answer your question about defaulting mortgages, as I would assume that the future income from Sky for the 2010/2011 was surrendered to the bank in favour of a lump sum that Venky's then used for their January signings (and possible other expenses). I am assuming that this amount would have been repaid the moment the Sky money came through at the end of the season.

My understanding is that this was never repaid and that is why we ended up with the mess with Jones transfer money. Barclay's held the money until Venkys sorted out what they wanted to do.

Personally I don't think Venkys are rich enough to run an EPL. They are also not clever/wise enough to appoint the best people to run Rovers for them.