[Archived] New Mortgage

[rebelmswar]

No, top of the pile is the word "together"!

"Lady luck" may be soon dusted off.

[Miker]

There are periodic scare stories about ordinary bills not being paid on time but I don't know if that is cash flow problems or the slow train to Pune and back.

The way the first mortgage expired on 30 June followed by the summer long transfer window farce followed by a new vastly more onerous mortgage signed on 25 August and lodged at Companies House somewhat later (I am being diplomatic) doesn't exactly point to a business operating under the normal rules of sound corporate governance.

Why wouldn't the first mortgage expire on 30 June? If the mortage was taken out to bring forward the guaranteed income to come in from the broadcasting payments for the 2010/2011 season, it would make sense that it would expire and be paid by that time. Do you have any legitimate evidence suggesting that the first mortgage was or wasn't paid following the receival of the Sky money?

It would be sensible to assume that the bank would not see fit to provide us with another mortgage for the 2011/2012 season, and all seasons thereafter, if that first mortgage had not been repaid. Especially given both mortgages would have been given by the banks with the knowledge that it is a virtually risk-free loan, given the broadcasting money is GUARANTEED income.

In an earlier post where I pointed out that Wigan and Everton have also taken out similar mortgages secured against Sky money I meant to illustrate that it is not abnormal, but it does suggest that clubs struggling financially in the league are being forced to take out these mortgages. Surely this isn't surprising though given our lack of revenue from sponsorship, as well as matchday income. The broadcasting money is our biggest source of financial salvation and it is not surprising to me that waiting 6 or 12 months to receive it is not an option and organising a deal with the bank where we can obtain that amount 6 or 12 months in advance would be a sensible course of action.

Our last financial records show that we only received 6 million pounds from matchday income and 9 million pounds from commercial/sponsorship deals. That's 15 million total. Until we see this year's published records, we can only speculate on the figures, but again... given the lack of shirt sponsor and apparent decreased in ticket sales/attendance then it's possible that we may be down to 10 million in total from those two revenue sources.

Given our wage bill is 47 million plus, we would potentially have a deficit of nearly 40 million to cover. A deficit of 40 million that we would have to cover from July 2011 til June 2012. While the broadcasting money would cover that, we don't get it straight away, so what options do we have? What would you propose we do? Now take into account that we may need to throw in at least 10 million to fund transfers for the season (50 million plus now). They quite obviously do not have the 50 million to throw into the club just like that. It's possible they need the broadcasting money to fund the wages, while they make their own money available for transfers. This to me just seems like a sensible business practice.

The issue would arise if they were pocketing the loans from the bank and not paying player wages (since that is what the loans are meant for). Given they are paying the player wages, I don't see how they are doing anything inappropriate or sinister.

[Steve Moss]

I can't forget that it's widely reported that this family made it's fortune on breeding, 'raising' and slaughtering animals in ways which British people started to consider at least distasteful way back in the eighties. Perhaps a representative from PETA should be invited to the get together with the board to state his view on whether Venkys are a 'benevolent' company? Also, does it not strike anybody that a public statement about bringing the two Ians on board might be a desperate attempt to curry favour?

Edit: Deleted paragraph

As to Venkys "benevolence" it is a for profit enterprise, not a benevolent association. Despite that they do considerable good works in their local area. So I don't doubt they are basically good people at their core.

I do doubt either their intelligence (judged by their success in climbing the league table) or good intentions toward Rovers (as we may be just another profit making venture for them, which means we're doomed).

I don't care for, or trust, Venkys as they have not performed in a manner which has benefitted the Rovers, from what I can see. But I'm not going to slate them because of how they treat chickens, which we (or at least I) eat.

I have a much worse opinion of Kean. I believe he knows exactly what he is doing and knows that he is not performing adequately. To me, it appears he doesn't care about the damage he's causing the club. In my view, his objective is to keep the title of "manager" in his grip until it is pried from his hands, and damn the consequence to our PL status.

[philipl]

Why wouldn't the first mortgage expire on 30 June? If the mortage was taken out to bring forward the guaranteed income to come in from the broadcasting payments for the 2010/2011 season, it would make sense that it would expire and be paid by that time. Do you have any legitimate evidence suggesting that the first mortgage was or wasn't paid following the receival of the Sky money?

It would be sensible to assume that the bank would not see fit to provide us with another mortgage for the 2011/2012 season, and all seasons thereafter, if that first mortgage had not been repaid. Especially given both mortgages would have been given by the banks with the knowledge that it is a virtually risk-free loan, given the broadcasting money is GUARANTEED income.

In an earlier post where I pointed out that Wigan and Everton have also taken out similar mortgages secured against Sky money I meant to illustrate that it is not abnormal, but it does suggest that clubs struggling financially in the league are being forced to take out these mortgages. Surely this isn't surprising though given our lack of revenue from sponsorship, as well as matchday income. The broadcasting money is our biggest source of financial salvation and it is not surprising to me that waiting 6 or 12 months to receive it is not an option and organising a deal with the bank where we can obtain that amount 6 or 12 months in advance would be a sensible course of action.

Our last financial records show that we only received 6 million pounds from matchday income and 9 million pounds from commercial/sponsorship deals. That's 15 million total. Until we see this year's published records, we can only speculate on the figures, but again... given the lack of shirt sponsor and apparent decreased in ticket sales/attendance then it's possible that we may be down to 10 million in total from those two revenue sources.

Given our wage bill is 47 million plus, we would potentially have a deficit of nearly 40 million to cover. A deficit of 40 million that we would have to cover from July 2011 til June 2012. While the broadcasting money would cover that, we don't get it straight away, so what options do we have? What would you propose we do? Now take into account that we may need to throw in at least 10 million to fund transfers for the season (50 million plus now). They quite obviously do not have the 50 million to throw into the club just like that. It's possible they need the broadcasting money to fund the wages, while they make their own money available for transfers. This to me just seems like a sensible business practice.

The issue would arise if they were pocketing the loans from the bank and not paying player wages (since that is what the loans are meant for). Given they are paying the player wages, I don't see how they are doing anything inappropriate or sinister.

This only holds true if £15m had not been injected into the club under the terms of the sale by the Walker Trust and the old overdraft of £14m at the time of the sale not been completely removed from the club's accounts (we know it was simply transferred to the parent and then re-affixed to Rovers' fixed assets!).

There is something which doesn't add up in the need for either mortgage by more than £10m in my opinion based on close analysis of Rovers accounts for the best part of a decade.

You have to remember that mortgaging Sky revenues was a COMPLETELY NEW FORM OF INDEBTEDNESS the Venky's introduced a matter of days after buying the club when Nick Harris was writing fibs in the Mail about Venky's never using debt or third party monies.

Now we have the current season AND FUTURE SEASON'S REVENUES mortgaged.

Never mind whether this business is called Blackburn Rovers or not, this is the borrowing pattern of a business in a very rapid financial decline with key sources of revenue like sponsorships replaced by bank borrowings.

As for the summer transfer window debacle, just go back to nicko's comments- he was extremely close to the active parties and his comments/rants about the shambles were accurate (as indeed were his lists of players for that matter- boy has the club's reputation gone around the world for how our "representatives" went gungho for signing players only for Mrs D to keep on losing her pen).

Sorry the conduct of Rovers during this summer's transfer window was an utter farce and there is no point trying to pretend otherwise.

Back to more serious matters, I am not going to go public just yet with what I suspect is going on with the financial engineering by the Raos involving Rovers and Venky's London in the desperate hope that the two Ians are being negotiated with for real and that they will get a handle on this can of worms. I am not optimistic as I fear the situation is too far gone.

[EwoodDawn]

your (or my) cultural norm is not the cultural norm of India.

A very simplified view of 'the cultural norm of India'. I have Indian friends who would argue that their 'norm' is not the one represented by the Venky family. India's culture and castes are expansive, as I suspect you know.

[philipl]

your (or my) cultural norm is not the cultural norm of India.

A very simplified view of 'the cultural norm of India'. I have Indian friends who would argue that their 'norm' is not the one represented by the Venky family. India's culture and castes are expansive, as I suspect you know.

A good point.

I know I get castigated for expressing this observation but the real face of modern technocratic India regard the Venky's venture into Blackburn Rovers as village idiots let loose and a national embarassment.

[BuckyRover]

A good point.

I know I get castigated for expressing this observation but the real face of modern technocratic India regard the Venky's venture into Blackburn Rovers as village idiots let loose and a national embarassment.

You wanted to deface the flag of a nation that you are now personally speaking for.

Confused.

[philipl]

You wanted to deface the flag of a nation that you are now personally speaking for.

Confused.

Yes you usually are bucky

[OJRovers]

Fans on the Board?

How often over the last year have Venkys in India listened to:

A) the fans

B ) The current Board?

Not a lot

I can't see that changing with these appointments

[Miker]

Philip, how was the club financed by the Trust in previous years?

How would you have Venky's finance the club now?

[philipl]

Philip, how was the club financed by the Trust in previous years?

How would you have Venky's finance the club now?

Rovers only needed to cover operating losses of around £5m per year under the Trust. That was covered by being a net selling club in a couple of seasons but also by injections from the Trust. £10m went in even after they had said they would stop funding the club.

Removing the overdraft to Venky's London Limited removed £1m of that projected £5m loss for last season and on a zero investment basis, the £15m cash injection required at the time of the purchase would therefore have funded Rovers' losses for three seasons without any need for any new borrowings.

Venky's have not invested in the playing side in terms of the player trading account as their net transfer balance over their first two windows is zero.

Obviously they have needed a mortgage backed loan because they have allowed income to drop and expenses to spiral out of control, eg 100% avoidable payments to agents- do you have an estimate for agent fees? They were £600k in total for 2009/10.

[Brfcrule1]

Philip can you pm me the accounts please?. I also thought KPMG were doing our accounts I thought they were supposed to be well respected?.

You also state this season & future season revenues are mortgaged? the big question how many future season's are mortgaged?

It states this is a new mortgage so big question has money oweing from last mortgage transferred onto this new facility or has the 1st mortgage been paid off?

Philip looking back over the thread it seems the mortgage taken out is against future tv revenues that says to me the income is the entirely dependent on retaining our PL status if we drop out we are totally up the creek without a paddle?.

Philip you state go back to Nicko's summer article was that the one where he stated we would have the biggest watchest in history and have 50M to spend was that when they jumped the gun thought the mortgage was sorted then the bank pulled the plug and were forced to go for bargain basement players hence the total shambles of the summer transfer window?

Philip do you think we are near or at the stage where Barclays own the club and sell it to prospective buyers like L'Pool? & is Brockhall included in the mortgage taken out?

Philip from what you see have venkys put any of their OWN money in? Was the money from the new mortgage used to fund the Pune 9's trip? I don't lay any blame on the pune 9 as they are good people and knowing Mr & Mrs Roversmum personally do not doubt their integrity? It just looks like to me they have not used any of their own money on Rovers & am curious?

Philip do you think the 2 Ian's will be appointed on the board or do you think they might make up some excuse & try to cover it up?

sorry to go on Philip am just curious and worried please still PM me those accounts at least I know my purchase of the new rovers reversible duvet cover money will go to a good cause!.

[BPF]

It has never ceased to amaze me that people try and argue with Philipl.

He is an expert in his field and one of the most intelligent people I have ever had the good fortune to know.

Using the argument 'It can't really be that bad' does not hold up I'm afraid.

The only thing more tragic than the above situation is people believing that our owners have any real money....

[67splitscreen]

Technically, the annual accounts are not due until May and even then the fines for not presenting them are miniscule.

If we are down, my hunch is I very much doubt we will see the 2010/11 numbers until after a huge crisis.

That notion has been hanging around a for quite a time and is, I understand, subject to a big bunch of issues being sorted out.

Why would venky's break their habit of a year and start doing something sensible?

Don't trading A/C have to be submitted to the PL twice annually, under the PL rules implemented last year.

Would Experian or the likes not hold more info, IE. the secured amount.

[Paul]

Standing aside from Rovers on this one and thinking about other clubs mentioned here such as Bolton, Wigan and Everton. This thread is an indictment of ALL PL clubs, the wider PL management and possibly the FA. Collectively the clubs hold somewhere in the region of £3 billion of debt.

Given the vast sums which have flowed into the PL since its, very recent, formation this discussion clearly shows the extent to which the PL clubs and their individual management teams have wasted billions of £££££.

Sky money was always going to be the death of football, all it required was some rather stupid chairmen and directors to help it on its way.

This situation for any club was never necessary.

[patrickvalery]

Standing aside from Rovers on this one and thinking about other clubs mentioned here such as Bolton, Wigan and Everton. This thread is an indictment of ALL PL clubs, the wider PL management and possibly the FA. Collectively the clubs hold somewhere in the region of £3 billion of debt.

Given the vast sums which have flowed into the PL since its, very recent, formation this discussion clearly shows the extent to which the PL clubs and their individual management teams have wasted billions of £££££.

Sky money was always going to be the death of football, all it required was some rather stupid chairmen and directors to help it on its way.

This situation for any club was never necessary.

Yes yes yes yes yes! Can't echo this enough.

The facts are we as fans can chose to be either one of two types. The 1st is the high brow fan who tuts at debt and expects their club to be self sustaining and running well within its means. Or the 2nd, a bunch of frenzied crazy men and women who find a voice every August and January during a transfer window. As fans of a club of our stature cannot realistically do both. Which is why i cannot fathom why anyone in their right mind would even contemplate becoming a football club owner. Most fans want to see the club chucking bucket loads of cash at its playing squad at every opportunity, yet snarl when the club makes a loss or borrows from the banks to fund it. For all their very obvious faults, Venky's could not win in this regard.

You are absolutely correct Paul. The situation was never necessary. But it has come to a head because fickle fans expect to keep up with the Jones'. It was plainly obvious on here as close as the summer just past. The talk of a £50m war chest raised the bar and the eventual outlay was deemed unacceptable. "Boo hiss! Only £10 million pounds! Its a bloody disgrace!" Some folk have short memories.

[Mattyblue]

It's about expectations, did I expect Venky's to provide SOME finance for player purchases? 5million a window etc? Yes, I think we all did, however as yet they have not spent anything over what we have brought in through sales, it is fairly obvious they will not/cannot move the club forward from the Trust era.

That would be quite acceptable if they had maintained the excellent management structure that was in place throughout the club, if they had not thrown money away on serverance packages and agency fees.

BRFC is a loss making venture at the best of times, our whole business model is reliiant on PL status, I just cannot comprehend the risks these people have taken.

[patrickvalery]

It's about expectations, did I expect Venky's to provide SOME finance for player purchases? 5million a window etc? Yes, I think we all did, however as yet they have not spent anything over what we have brought in through sales, it is fairly obvious they will not/cannot move the club forward from the Trust era.

That would be quite acceptable if they had maintained the excellent management structure that was in place throughout the club, if they had not thrown money away on serverance packages and agency fees.

BRFC is a loss making venture at the best of times, our whole business model is reliiant on PL status, I just cannot comprehend the risks these people have taken.

It would have been acceptable for you Matty. But as well you know, the masses were whipped up into a frenzy. I'll readily admit the thought of a £50m transfer kitty brought a smile to my face. The level of investment you mention above would have been a marked improvement and one we should all have been pleased with. But the facts are as soon as silly things like Ronaldinho, Beckham, CL football etc... got mentioned it passed the point of no return for many fans.

Its now wrong for those same fans to start moaning about loans, mortgages and debt.

Not that anything anyone says will stop the moaning now. Its true of all English football fans, not just Rovers. We just aren't a particularly pleasant nation of people.

[philipl]

Don't trading A/C have to be submitted to the PL twice annually, under the PL rules implemented last year.

Would Experian or the likes not hold more info, IE. the secured amount.

Yes the PL requires the accounts to be submitted regularly and can require additional information as well but this is not for use by the public.

By all means do a credit rating check on the Rovers.

[thenodrog]

No. a. They are too big and b. We want them nowhere near the forum as they are technically not public (though anyone can legitimately obtain them from Companies House for a few quid)

Big troll is trolling

Indeed he is.

But only half trolling cos try as I might I still cannot see a viable alternative for small town clubs in close proximity other than to either depend on some temporary sugar daddy or to grub around the basement divisions watched by one man and his dog for eternity. Worse still no one appears able to provide one other than the lame old 'well if we become Lankashire United thats it for me cos I'll never go'. In truth it's probably a more valid topic for debate or topic than the plethora of venkey out / kean out bleating threads that we have running. Think on.

[broadsword]

Well if Venky's succeed in taking us down the tubes then we will all have to think on, because there'll be no bloody club to give up on anyway.

It's an impossible situation because times have moved on drastically since the industrial revolution, we are left with a high concentration of clubs, typically in less affluent areas, that are struggling to sustain their status. Yet because of the tribal nature of football, you'd have a very hard time indeed persuading fans to agree to a merger.

One thing's for sure, if Lancashire United did come about, I wouldn't support it if it had foreign owners.

Ewood Park would go to the wall as well, because of the poor transport links.

[thenodrog]

However we neither draw a wage nor pay ourselves any dividends, the company is really there for administration purposes.

That's bordering on insanity. All risk and effort with no potential for gain. Especially so within a business that is fuelled by fantastic wealth and is itself the very epitome of greed.

It must explain why all you computer geeks are known as 'anoraks' and not 'suits'.

Don't worry though I'm sure you'll both go to a blue and white heaven.

[Tom]

Just when I was about to start doubting someone's integrity it turns out that there was actually more than just the 9 on here who travelled at the owners expense then? I think that may solve the mystery of the info I was given

As per my initial post, rightly or wrongly, I was definitely told that there were people with no actual interest in Rovers or football who tagged along on this 5* trip to Venkyville (it's only the same that anyone else with a brain in their head would do). Like I said earlier, I don't doubt its authenticity in the slightest as it was simply being passed on to me (by request) from someone in conversation...but a gentleman never tells

No but a gentleman certainly talks bunkum it seems.

Apart from club employees there were 11 people invited along, 2 on a personal invite (Roversmum and Roversdad) and 9 from the fans forum, I think its quite obvious all those 9 have an interest in the club.

Just what is your issue here you seem very keen to talk about that?

[thenodrog]

Well it would be awfully nice of them to put some of their own skin in the game, you know, as a gesture.

To date it's been awfully risk free for them. What have they lost? They've gained an awful lot of publicity. We've endured all sorts, including the worst run of results that I can recall in my time following Rovers (30 years), a club I can no longer believe in and more mixed messages and propaganda than I thought possible. The continued presence of Kean, Anderson and co is nothing short of criminal.

So, as others have said; what have the Venkys done for us?

The accounts and balance sheet out in December will reveal all I suspect.

Let's be honest though, money aside, if they gave a damn they'd have made changes a while ago. Don't they have league tables and form guides in Pune? Or doesn't that matter?

Can nobody grasp the reason for people from another continent with no interest whatsoever in English football actually being here? People who 12 months ago couldn't even find Blackburn on a map just as 99.9% of us had never heard of somewhere called Pune. Take off the blue and white specs and the only reason for Venkeys involvement is to profit financially in some way. imo they have been sold a pup and will struggle to regain their investment which will surely be their only aim once the reallity of their situation hits home.

[thenodrog]

Err, "way back in the eighties"? Just how old are you? Human beings have NOT evolved over the last 30 years

They have over here Steve. Hadn't you heard? Our kids get more intelligent than their predecessors every consecutive August when record GCSE results are trotted out.