[Archived] Poppy ban overturned

[jim mk2]

I don't wear a poppy, because of how the rich and powerful, and the armed forcers, use it to support their version of history and to gather support for modern wars.

Those who dies in WW1 were victims of a stupid war of powers fighting over commerce and land and using ordinary people as chess pieces. WW2 was different and a fight we had no choice in, to fight fascism when of course sections of the royal family, the ruling elites and big business wanted to cut a deal with Hitler. Since then we've been involved by and large in pointless wars in which working class lads die and leave families and friends behind.

In recent times the poppy has become a symbol of the armed forces not the dead who fought worthy casues, and the two are not the same.

And wait 'til some lunatic leader forces his football team to wear a nationalist or xenophobic symbol and points to the poppy.

Appalling and shameful misrepresentation of the poppy symbol and an insult to all those who have given their lives for this country.

[RoyRover]

I'm not entirely up on the whole situation, so maybe someone could fill me in. Have England tried to wear poppies in the past when they've had games at this time? Have they been turned down before? Is there something particularly significant about having them for the game coming up?

[BuckyRover]

I'm not entirely up on the whole situation, so maybe someone could fill me in. Have England tried to wear poppies in the past when they've had games at this time? Have they been turned down before? Is there something particularly significant about having them for the game coming up?

No, no and no (other than its nearly the 11th of November, but that has also been the case in the past)

[RoyRover]

No, no and no (other than its nearly the 11th of November, but that has also been the case in the past)

Ok cheers. So why the big push for it now?

[BuckyRover]

Ok cheers. So why the big push for it now?

I've been trying to work that out myself.

I think primarily it was used by the government to try and deflect attention away from Theresa May but maybe I'm being cynical.

[RoyRover]

I've been trying to work that out myself.

I think primarily it was used by the government to try and deflect attention away from Theresa May but maybe I'm being cynical.

And the F.A with John Terry possibly?

[beerwins]

I don't wear a poppy, because of how the rich and powerful, and the armed forcers, use it to support their version of history and to gather support for modern wars.

Those who dies in WW1 were victims of a stupid war of powers fighting over commerce and land and using ordinary people as chess pieces. WW2 was different and a fight we had no choice in, to fight fascism when of course sections of the royal family, the ruling elites and big business wanted to cut a deal with Hitler. Since then we've been involved by and large in pointless wars in which working class lads die and leave families and friends behind.

In recent times the poppy has become a symbol of the armed forces not the dead who fought worthy casues, and the two are not the same.

And wait 'til some lunatic leader forces his football team to wear a nationalist or xenophobic symbol and points to the poppy.

Of course this is only your opinion of why you dont wear a poppy, we all know the hithertoos and why fors of every war but at the end of the day it is a symbol of rememberance for those that lost their lives fighting for what they believed in, my Grandad fought in the war and survived but lost a lot of his friends, unfortunately he is'nt with us today to let me explain the reasons why people dont wear the poppy.

Millions of people lost their lives at the whim of the rich and the powerfull fair enough but the poppy is about remembering the working class men who died not the guy's who gave orders thousand of miles away, you think if any of those soldiers fighting in that war would have shared your opinions they would have been able to come home and carry on with a normal life?

The men that lost their lives fighting for our freedom were bloody heroes and the ones that survived came home and worked hard and raised families and taught them right from wrong, it's nice to have freedom of speech is'nt it? Maybe next time you will use it wiser.

[Tom]

They shall not grow old as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning. WE WILL REMEMBER THEM

[Stuart]

Two excellent posts in a row. Beerwins and Tom.

[BiggusLaddus]

WW2 was different and a fight we had no choice in, to fight fascism when of course sections of the royal family, the ruling elites and big business wanted to cut a deal with Hitler.

And the only way we could beat him was to cut a deal with an even bigger tyrant. That's the thing with life (and politics especially), it's never as black and white as an idealist would like it to be.

But of course you were just trolling. On a thread about poppies and the armistice. Shame on you.

[True Blue & White]

And the only way we could beat him was to cut a deal with an even bigger tyrant. That's the thing with life (and politics especially), it's never as black and white as an idealist would like it to be.

But of course you were just trolling. On a thread about poppies and the armistice. Shame on you.

Just because someone has a diferent opinion doesn't mean they are a troll.

[AllRoverAsia]

I don't know the history all that well of wearing the poppy, it seems more popular in the last few years, I mean why does this come up now??

I'm still quite young at 59, that was a good time to be born, missed all the major wars, missed national service but have memories of ration books. I've worn a Poppy as long as I can remember so its not a new fad.

[True Blue & White]

I'm still quite young at 59, that was a good time to be born, missed all the major wars, missed national service but have memories of ration books. I've worn a Poppy as long as I can remember so its not a new fad.

Yeah living through the cold war and the constant imminent threat of having a nuclear bomb dropped on your head must have been great.

[thenodrog]

Yeah living through the cold war and the constant imminent threat of having a nuclear bomb dropped on your head must have been great.

Given the fullness of time and making inevitable comparisons with the citizens of today who are too young to remember the Cold War at it's height it might not have been great but it was certainly character building.

[AllRoverAsia]

Yeah living through the cold war and the constant imminent threat of having a nuclear bomb dropped on your head must have been great.

Yes they were bad times, I can remember the Cuban Missile situation quite well. I was still quite young and always put the BBC news on but strangely I always thought if its that quick why aren't we gone already.

The point I was trying to make is that my generation didn't have to go to the front line, we were not conscripted, the 50's were not easy times in the UK but were ok times to be a kid, we got to experience the 60's and 70's and we did it in a free country. I know I owe a dept to those who fought so that I could do that.

A simple thing - listening to Radio Caroline, I was allowed to do that by the suffering of others.

I'll always wear a Poppy

[BRFC4EVA]

Probably the most well written post in terms of how I feel:(written by a dingle on claretsmad-Claretruss!)

The saddest part in all of this is that the poppy used to be a symbol representing dignified respect and remembrance. There has been absolutely zero dignity about any of this farcical protest.

Over the past couple of days it has become a political tool for Little Englanders to beat FIFA with, an PR opportunity for David Cameron to transparently try to connect with an increasingly disapproving public, and most shamefully of all a vehicle for right wing fascists such as the EDL to promote their cause. The real meaning has been completely lost, and the symbol sold out to opportunists hell bent on abusing it for their own selfish ends.

None of this is what the poppy or Remembrance Day is supposed to represent, and I'm sure none of it is what the British Legion would want it to represent. Shame on everybody who has given this ludicrous campaign the impetus it didn't deserve - the public, the media, and the celebrities who couldn't wait to attach their name to it. I hope you're all proud of yourselves.

And as for FIFA's decision to compromise, they could just have opened Pandora's Box - I guess time will tell.

[Commondore]

Don't think FIFA should have over turned this ban for two reasons....

1) Whilst respecting war dead is a noble thing and perfectly fine to do within the borders of that country, one man's soldier is another man's terrorist or invader. It's easy to see poppies and think of WW2 and not even the Germans would have an issue with people that fought the Nazis but what about more controvesial conflicts like the Falklands for example? You only have to look at a map to see why the Argentines feel the 'Malvinas' (as they call them) should belong to them and if we were playing them in a friendly should they be expected to put up with our players openly respecting the people that killed theirs?

2) A more general point but I'm sick of rich, celebrities having all the time and gumption in the world to DO something for the cause but they don't seem as forthcoming to actually GIVE any money. Instead of going mental over this issue, the FA and the players should have instead made a large (1 weeks wages per player) donation to the British Legion which would have actually done something past just the symbolic gesture they've managed to orchastate.

Not to mention nations like Kenya, South Africa or a large portion of the Caribbean island nations.

[Stuart]

Probably the most well written post in terms of how I feel:(written by a dingle on claretsmad-Claretruss!)

The saddest part in all of this is that the poppy used to be a symbol representing dignified respect and remembrance. There has been absolutely zero dignity about any of this farcical protest.

Over the past couple of days it has become a political tool for Little Englanders to beat FIFA with, an PR opportunity for David Cameron to transparently try to connect with an increasingly disapproving public, and most shamefully of all a vehicle for right wing fascists such as the EDL to promote their cause. The real meaning has been completely lost, and the symbol sold out to opportunists hell bent on abusing it for their own selfish ends.

None of this is what the poppy or Remembrance Day is supposed to represent, and I'm sure none of it is what the British Legion would want it to represent. Shame on everybody who has given this ludicrous campaign the impetus it didn't deserve - the public, the media, and the celebrities who couldn't wait to attach their name to it. I hope you're all proud of yourselves.

And as for FIFA's decision to compromise, they could just have opened Pandora's Box - I guess time will tell.

Much like the Union Flag or St. George's cross, these symbols become political tools only if the increasing apathetic, self-centred general public allow it to.

It's because of the lack of respect and pride for such things, generally, that causes the problem in the first place.

Another of the ironies of British life. Makes me sick.

People should stop being so cynical about things like this and embrace them - before they are gone forever.

RIP Great Britain. No wonder the Scots want out.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Much like the Union Flag or St. George's cross, these symbols become political tools only if the increasing apathetic, self-centred general public allow it to.

It's because of the lack of respect and pride for such things, generally, that causes the problem in the first place.

Another of the ironies of British life. Makes me sick.

People should stop being so cynical about things like this and embrace them - before they are gone forever.

RIP Great Britain. No wonder the Scots want out.

"British" life can die out completely for me, I won't miss it. I'm not infected with nostalgia for something that never existed, and I won't celebrate a nation that built its 'greatness' on the exploitation of the rest of the world just because the majority believe that we redeemed ourselves by fighting the two World Wars.

The entire world has its values mixed up as far as I'm concerned, and whatever anyone thinks of me I won't align myself with a group that has been so proud in committing atrocities, even if my place of birth does entitle me to membership.

Has anyone wondered what would have happened if one of the England players had expressed a wish not to be forced to wear a shirt with a poppy on it?

[Stuart]

"British" life can die out completely for me, I won't miss it. I'm not infected with nostalgia for something that never existed, and I won't celebrate a nation that built its 'greatness' on the exploitation of the rest of the world just because the majority believe that we redeemed ourselves by fighting the two World Wars.

The entire world has its values mixed up as far as I'm concerned, and whatever anyone thinks of me I won't align myself with a group that has been so proud in committing atrocities, even if my place of birth does entitle me to membership.

Has anyone wondered what would have happened if one of the England players had expressed a wish not to be forced to wear a shirt with a poppy on it?

I guess that's Q.E.D.

[thenodrog]

"British" life can die out completely for me, I won't miss it. I'm not infected with nostalgia for something that never existed, and I won't celebrate a nation that built its 'greatness' on the exploitation of the rest of the world just because the majority believe that we redeemed ourselves by fighting the two World Wars.

The entire world has its values mixed up as far as I'm concerned, and whatever anyone thinks of me I won't align myself with a group that has been so proud in committing atrocities, even if my place of birth does entitle me to membership.

Has anyone wondered what would have happened if one of the England players had expressed a wish not to be forced to wear a shirt with a poppy on it?

How odd that you can lower yourself to live in one then.

If you can find somewhere that doesn't have a similar historical record you should go there. Beware though your options will be very limited. Antarctica might just about qualify to suit your sensibilities.

I take it you must be a latter day 'concientious objector'. You know the breed that are so reviled the world over. You must have a great grandparent or even great great uncle or three who found themselves in the trenches or wherever. They would be little different to you in outlook so why not show some humility and respect toward them?

[Audax]

Everyone should see that movie "Noel", Happy or Merry Christmas in English. Some movie on World War I. Everyone virtually knows the key events of World War II, many of us really don't know that much about the 'Great War'. I know that many of those who suffered the most were just the average ordinary soldier and they should be honoured. Great movie too, one of the best.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Appalling and shameful misrepresentation of the poppy symbol and an insult to all those who have given their lives for this country.

Not true. I remember the war dead each year on this day and think about the people who fought fascism. I also think about how millions of people lost their lives for causes in which they had no say in but were sent to their death by their rulers. But I cannot forget how our 'heroes' treated Irish people or many others. I respect those who wears poppies and I know that for most it is to remember the war dead. But I cannot endorse the uncritical story of the military that has become interwoven with the poppy appeal.

A great uncle of mine was killed by the Nazis btw.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

How odd that you can lower yourself to live in one then.

If you can find somewhere that doesn't have a similar historical record you should go there. Beware though your options will be very limited. Antarctica might just about qualify to suit your sensibilities.

I take it you must be a latter day 'concientious objector'. You know the breed that are so reviled the world over. You must have a great grandparent or even great great uncle or three who found themselves in the trenches or wherever. They would be little different to you in outlook so why not show some humility and respect toward them?

Believe me, I won't be here much longer. And I know that will only gladden your heart, but that's not really my concern. Perhaps every country does have a dark side to its history, but not every country in the world invented concentration camps, Britain did. Not every country was a pioneer in the use of chemical weapons, Britain was. Not every country initiated one of the most barbaric slave trades in history, Britain did and practically built half the nation on the back of it. Not every country engineered the system that guarantees the continuation of third world debt, but Britain was one of them. Not every country drew the artifical borders that created so much conflict in Africa and the Middle East, once again Britain did. I could go on.

Soldiers are free to educate themselves on what they are signing up for, and the truth is that they won't be sent to die for anything as noble as our freedom. Wars aren't fought over grand ideas, they are fought because it's in the interests of a few very influential people. But believe the sickening lies of patriotism and democracy if you like, I just feel like those concepts in our society are little more than an insult to the intelligence of people who are capable of independent thought.

The irony is that the "accept our way or get out" attitude that the most vehement of 'your kind' (since we're labelling) adopt is exactly the kind of thing that we claim to have protected by entering most wars in the past 100 or so years. Wearing a poppy shows much less respect than allowing people to enjoy the 'freedom' that we're told our servicemen died for.

It seems especially ironic that this bout of sentiment has come at a time when the wars we fight are becoming increasingly unjustifiable. If you want to show respect to those who fought in WWI and WWII then great, this isn't the place and I don't have time to explain why I don't feel compelled to do the same. However, please don't tell me that fighting in wars like Iraq and Afghanistan were noble causes, because we've killed far more civilians in those countries than Saddam or the Taliban ever did, and the threat that those countries never really posed to us has now materialised far closer to home. Job done, huh?

Anyway, although I could extend my argument to explain my opposition to the international game, this has nothing to do with football and it would have been better if the issue had never been brought up, but at least it provided a distraction from the fact that the Spanish are probably going to make England look like amateurs on their own turf.

[jim mk2]

But I cannot endorse the uncritical story of the military that has become interwoven with the poppy appeal.

The poppy appeal is to remember the war dead and honour those who gave their lives. Nothing more.

Read this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6133312.stm