[Archived] Flowers

[Tom]

That is total spin. The majority of the fans support the protests but most just do not get off their butts to join in.

I would dispute that to be honest I don't think the majority of fans support them at all.

[Roversider]

Thanks Bellars - how are you BTW?

Yes, I got that wrong, but I think roversider maintains that the majority of fans aren't against Kean or Venky's. If I've got that wrong Roversider, then my apologies.

What is a valid statistical sample then? I assume yougov think it is, or there would have been no point them doing the poll.

Apologies accepted, I am commenting on the protestors not the number of fans who may or may not want Kean out.

The YouGov poll relied on individuals who are already signed up as YouGov panellists, who then said they supported a Premiership team, who then said they were Rovers fans and who then took the time to respond to the poll. YouGov sampling for these sort of surveys is much more random and potentially skewed than you think. The key thing though is that it never referred to the protests so it is not right, in my opinion, to link that to supporting the protests.

[bellamy11]

Thanks Bellars - how are you BTW?

Not bad, thanks Den. Hope you're well too. Not getting to many home games now - feeling the effect of living hundreds of miles (and hundreds of pounds) away.

I think to a degree that explains my isolated feeling from the protests. They've just not touched my radar apart from what I read on here. It's very sad seeing the disintegration of the club, and being somewhat afar it simultaneously adds to the feeling of helplessness but also probably helps numb the pain a bit because I'm not seeing it every Saturday.

Ultimately, I've never felt so detached from the club. It's so hard to find the motivation to spend time and money that I don't have to return to kamikaze football, lies from the manager and owners, in-fighting, and a mixture of anger/antipathy among the fanbase. That's partly down to the distance, but I imagine there's plenty in Blackburn who feel the same.

[Roversider]

That is total spin. The majority of the fans support the protests but most just do not get off their butts to join in.

Many people support a political party but most of them do not become members. It's the same with the protests. You don't just have to take the opinions on here. Look at the ones on the Telegraph site too.

My comments are fact based. If you want to deride the statements as total spin you would do better to actually demonstrate the inaccuracy of what I posted in respect of numbers actively participating in protests which I have seen first-hand. About 20% of the population actively use the Internet and a much smaller proportion use the social networking provided by BRFCS and the LT site. If you judge the number of posts then you need to examine how often it is the same people posting.

I won't convert you, nor am I trying to, my point was always that the form the protests have finally taken had converted me - the other way.

[Majiball]

What is a valid statistical sample then? I assume yougov think it is, or there would have been no point them doing the poll.

As it would be impossible to collection opinion polls for a whole population I'm certain there is an agreed % to be considered representative. What it actually is I'm not 100% maybe about 5% - 10% of the total population being polled.

[glen9mullan]

Just got back from Ewood after getting tickets for Wigan and looked at the flowers around the statue of our much beloved Jack. I had a quick count and I reckon that there are between 50 and 60 bunches or arrangements. I saw no sign or indication that any were being taken away either by Rovers staff or others but if people claim there were more I cannot disprove their statements.

However, what I can comment on is my reaction, not to the flowers, not to the numbers of bunches but to the messages attached to them. I have to admit at being surprised at how I felt and at the moment I really don't care what people feel towards what I am going to post because it is a genuine, heartfelt response. I know that I have always been consistent in saying that I did not support the protests and that I felt that it is right that people can protest. Also that I have been vociferous in the past to see the back of managers and boards.

How did I feel, I felt the same way that someone who has a loved relative would feel if that relative received condolences that they were dead when they were in ill-health but still very much alive. It was a passing feeling but I am deeply saddened that Rovers supporters feel so strongly that they say the club is dead.

If you really feel that way then why not follow the founders of FC United or AFC Wimbledon and form a new AFC Blackburn? Otherwise it just smacks of the Green and Yellow scarf wearers who continue to follow United.

The club, my club, is not dead!

Like it or not the number of protestors is very small in comparison to the mass of Rovers fans. True many have voted with their feet (although experience tells me that is often an excuse to save money) and everyone is unhappy with the results. The protestors do not represent me and I suspect many others feel the same. In the past I have been more than happy to see people vent their anger through protests but this last one has finally put me firmly in the anti-protest camp simply because I do not want to be associated in any form with the negative image that the protests have brought to the Rovers fanbase - not the club, not the management, not the owners but the fans. I have been ambivolent towards the protests up until now but I am beginning to move towards anger. Protest if you must but realise that you may be recruiting for the other side of your argument by your actions.

I really do not think this is a time for the who? how many? etc....

The reasons for the protest are unified, and this is just going over old ground. Not all take part, not all are in approval of them, but at the same time the Majority have the same feelings as the ones who are taking part,

This divide and conquer needs to stop, We are all supporters and all have different ways of expressing ourselves, I get on really well with many who don't protest and don't agree with protest, and I do not look down on them for not protesting.

The only thing which is important in my honest opinion is that our club has got so low, that its come to protest.... I think its very easy to pin blame on the supporters when people should be looking at the route cause, the majority see the route cause and it should never be a case of "US AND THEM" Amongst supporters. No wonder the club is getting away with a total lack of respect for its supporters, if supporters just take things out on each other. Channel that frustration at them and leave each other alone

[Roversider]

As it would be impossible to collection opinion polls for a whole population I'm certain there is an agreed % to be considered representative. What it actually is I'm not 100% maybe about 5% - 10% of the total population being polled.

The poll is run by YouGov and is a blind selection, however it is limited to active YouGov panellists and was less than 100 in number. There was no particular attempt to ensure that the sample was representative as a whole but it is reasonable to put some trust in YouGov as experienced pollsters - however this was treated as one of their lightweight 'fun' polls as opposed to who might win the election.

[OJRovers]

I do not want to be associated in any form with the negative image that the protests have brought to the Rovers fanbase - not the club, not the management, not the owners but the fans.

So by not-protesting you, by definition, are supporting the owners - are you not bothered about the negative image they have brought to the club? Just look through today's papers, most unbias views are sympathising with the protestors and ridiculing the way Venkys have run the club.

[Majiball]

The poll is run by YouGov and is a blind selection, however it is limited to active YouGov panellists and was less than 100 in number. There was no particular attempt to ensure that the sample was representative as a whole but it is reasonable to put some trust in YouGov as experienced pollsters - however this was treated as one of their lightweight 'fun' polls as opposed to who might win the election.

100 would be nowhere near representative but I also don't know the total number of rovers supporters. You see for an internet poll to be valid that figure would need to be known/estimated, on here we see polls of about 600 voters which if even at 5% would be good for 12,000 people, so not enough. It's a big part of the reason I called for a poll on the LT as that would get more much more voters.

Trouble is a reporter (LT) posted on here that the club had said they would not be happy with the LT if they did one. Why don't the club want an LT poll on Kean to be sacked if the majority support him, I suspect even the club feel that a poll containing 1,000's (it would) would be to damming and would be considered representative of all our supporters. Say 2,000 vote at 5% that's representative of a population of 40,000, double our normal crowd and in the press.

There's a reason the club have told the LT not to do it.

[Roversider]

I really do not think this is a time for the who? how many? etc....

Glen, everyone outside Ewood looks to the numbers taking part as to whether the protests should be ignored - like it or not

The reasons for the protest are unified, and this is just going over old ground. Not all take part, not all are in approval of them, but at the same time the Majority have the same feelings as the ones who are taking part,

It is not going over old ground for me, the Flowers protest, more importantly some of the messages, polarised my position

This divide and conquer needs to stop, We are all supporters and all have different ways of expressing ourselves, I get on really well with many who don't protest and don't agree with protest, and I do not look down on them for not protesting.

I know that and I respect you for trying to keep it organised and peaceful, I don't feel that they are helpful but I respect your right to protest.

The only thing which is important in my honest opinion is that our club has got so low, that its come to protest.... I think its very easy to pin blame on the supporters when people should be looking at the route cause, the majority see the route cause and it should never be a case of "US AND THEM" Amongst supporters. No wonder the club is getting away with a total lack of respect for its supporters, if supporters just take things out on each other. Channel that frustration at them and leave each other alone

I support your sentiments for unity, I just can't see the protests resulting in unity. However I don't really think that matters as the unity that does matter is in the ground during and before the game. As an aside I despise anyone who advocates violence towards you and yours.

If you say the root cause is how the club treats its fans then nearly all football clubs fall into the same category ask the Evertonians marching today.

Let's scream our heads off for the Rovers at Wigan and fall out afterwards, we're all Blue and White.

[Mercer]

Roversider - the penny is now beginning to drop, somewhat belatedly, with the national press. Kean and co can only get away with spin for so long.

Suggest you read the excellent articles in today's Guardian & Mail together with the mocking article in Mirror.

Hopefully, a few more supporters will then begin to realise, IMO, just what a mess our club is in and how our stock has fallen dramatically nationally.

[John]

Numbers are fairly pointless - to look at a different perspective, as I said, ask anyone independently whether they think we are being run correctly? Do they think the Rao family have done a good job?

The fact ANYONE is protesting tells its own story - appreciate Everton fans are this weekend (I think) however protests are not that regular or the norm at most clubs.

[den]

Apologies accepted, I am commenting on the protestors not the number of fans who may or may not want Kean out.

The YouGov poll relied on individuals who are already signed up as YouGov panellists, who then said they supported a Premiership team, who then said they were Rovers fans and who then took the time to respond to the poll. YouGov sampling for these sort of surveys is much more random and potentially skewed than you think. The key thing though is that it never referred to the protests so it is not right, in my opinion, to link that to supporting the protests.

Yougov always use panellists that are signed up. That doesn't detract from them being a reputable polling company. Of course they would also ask for rovers fans to take part. Anything else than rovers fans being polled would be a skewed result. Imagine asking Burnley fans their views on Steve Kean.

TBH Roversider, I think you're just dismissing that yougov poll because the results showed 80% of rovers fans wanted Kean out and that's months ago now. I assume the same company, if they polled again, would get results in line with the results we get on here. Those polls do show evidence that a big majority of rovers fan want Kean out. There's no evidence that I'm aware of that suggests anything otherwise. That's the real argument - not how many of the fans are prepared to protest. Without actually knowing what the non protesting fans think, that proves nothing.

[den]

Not bad, thanks Den. Hope you're well too. Not getting to many home games now - feeling the effect of living hundreds of miles (and hundreds of pounds) away.

I think to a degree that explains my isolated feeling from the protests. They've just not touched my radar apart from what I read on here. It's very sad seeing the disintegration of the club, and being somewhat afar it simultaneously adds to the feeling of helplessness but also probably helps numb the pain a bit because I'm not seeing it every Saturday.

Ultimately, I've never felt so detached from the club. It's so hard to find the motivation to spend time and money that I don't have to return to kamikaze football, lies from the manager and owners, in-fighting, and a mixture of anger/antipathy among the fanbase. That's partly down to the distance, but I imagine there's plenty in Blackburn who feel the same.

I'm OK thanks.

It was only when I bumped into CN recently that I found out you had moved. Never thought you would have lost your affinity with the club. Sounds like you've gone the same way as Jordan - found other things in your life.

Hope everything works out for you Mark.

[Pedro]

My comments are fact based. If you want to deride the statements as total spin you would do better to actually demonstrate the inaccuracy of what I posted in respect of numbers actively participating in protests which I have seen first-hand. About 20% of the population actively use the Internet and a much smaller proportion use the social networking provided by BRFCS and the LT site. If you judge the number of posts then you need to examine how often it is the same people posting.

I won't convert you, nor am I trying to, my point was always that the form the protests have finally taken had converted me - the other way.

I totally understand what you are saying and will back you up (no doubt I'll get a tirade of abuse again for having a difference of opinion but you are absolutely right by saying the evidence supports your opinion).

Going off what I have personally seen and heard at Rovers, I cannot understand how anyone can deny that it is the actions of anything but a minority of the crowd and I only see conspiracy theories and massive overestimations to back up their opinion (Seriously, what does it really matter how many people are there though? The fact is it is a point of view shared by hell of a lot of people!)

I used to frown upon the protestors but that was because I thought the initial timing was really appalling (way too early in the season and before the Arsenal match). Now I think that they have an absolute right to stand up for what they believe in because we are a quarter of the way into the season and I personally think that Kean doesn't deserve to keep hold of his job - purely down to results. I think the passion that the protestors are showing is because Rovers is such a massive part of their lives and it must be absolutely killing them inside. It used to ruin my weekend whenever Rovers lost but over the years I've had to detach myself from feeling like that so rather than feeling upset about the current situation, I just feel totally disappointed and numb to it - I imagine there are many more who feel like this too.

Although I support their right to protest, I must say that I can't buy into the organised protests because to me, it seems that the reasons and the aims change on a fortnightly basis - and I can't ignore that (We've gone in a loop from Venkys,Kean,Communication,Kean,Venkys) the only real reasons that matters to me is lack of points and results. I also don't want to be seen standing shoulder to shoulder with a woman dressed as a chicken or a man calling Kean a liar or drink driver...again, I imagine that this is another major reason why many fans don't want to be associated with it.

[Pedro]

So by not-protesting you, by definition, are supporting the owners

No by not protesting he is simply choosing not to protest, his reasons are his own. It isn't just black or white.

Some of my mates protest, many others don't. Some believe that by protesting they will get what they want, others think that by protesting you will actually create the reverse effect.

[Al]

My comments are fact based. If you want to deride the statements as total spin you would do better to actually demonstrate the inaccuracy of what I posted in respect of numbers actively participating in protests which I have seen first-hand. About 20% of the population actively use the Internet and a much smaller proportion use the social networking provided by BRFCS and the LT site. If you judge the number of posts then you need to examine how often it is the same people posting.

I won't convert you, nor am I trying to, my point was always that the form the protests have finally taken had converted me - the other way.

Would you not call 20% of the population a representative sample then? The poll on here is staggeringly in favour of sacking Kean and although there is no poll it is the same in the Telegraph. Still let me swap it around. Please demonstrate to me why you think the majority are against the demonstrations. Show me a poll from a representative sample. My sample may be flawed but it is not that far away from the truth.

[Stuart]

100 would be nowhere near representative but I also don't know the total number of rovers supporters. You see for an internet poll to be valid that figure would need to be known/estimated, on here we see polls of about 600 voters which if even at 5% would be good for 12,000 people, so not enough. It's a big part of the reason I called for a poll on the LT as that would get more much more voters.

Trouble is a reporter (LT) posted on here that the club had said they would not be happy with the LT if they did one. Why don't the club want an LT poll on Kean to be sacked if the majority support him, I suspect even the club feel that a poll containing 1,000's (it would) would be to damming and would be considered representative of all our supporters. Say 2,000 vote at 5% that's representative of a population of 40,000, double our normal crowd and in the press.

There's a reason the club have told the LT not to do it.

That stinks.

Can this be brought up at the Radio Lancashire fans forum session? Pressure needs to be put on the LT to run such a poll. Are they a newspaper or a cheap Rovers match programme? (Rhet.)

[den]

I think the reason why the LT hasn't run a poll, is because it would attract a lot of Burnley fans, thus making it pointless.

[Pedro]

I think the reason why the LT hasn't run a poll, is because it would attract a lot of Burnley fans, thus making it pointless.

Totally agree, they are as desperate for him to stay on as we are for him to leave.

[bestierover]

Saw the tributes to Jack first hand today. Moving.

[Stuart]

I think the reason why the LT hasn't run a poll, is because it would attract a lot of Burnley fans, thus making it pointless.

Always a reason to just accept the situation we are in (not aimed at you, Den).

Is there no hope?

Maybe we need to start sending strongly worded emails to Venky's telling them that the MUST KEEP Kean. It seems they are determinted to prove the fans wrong, it might just be enough force them to do the opposite.

Get on it Glen!

[cn174]

Thanks Bellars - how are you BTW?

What is a valid statistical sample then? I assume yougov think it is, or there would have been no point them doing the poll.

I've written something similar before, but a statistically valid sample for 30,000 people (which over estimates the number of Rovers fans at home games) is 588.

This is using the same confidence intervals/levels as an academic paper or government statistics survey would use.

So several of the polls that have been on here would be deemed statistically valid for a population of 30,000.

(i'm going to stop writing stuff like this makes me sound like a right dweeb!)

[Pedro]

I've written something similar before, but a statistically valid sample for 30,000 people (which over estimates the number of Rovers fans at home games) is 588.

This is using the same confidence intervals/levels as an academic paper or government statistics survey would use.

So several of the polls that have been on here would be deemed statistically valid for a population of 30,000.

(i'm going to stop writing stuff like this makes me sound like a right dweeb!)

I'm not doubting your stats but surely you would have to randomly ask 588 people from around the ground to get a more realistic result, not just survey 588 like minded individuals like we do on here.

[thenodrog]

That stinks.

Can this be brought up at the Radio Lancashire fans forum session? Pressure needs to be put on the LT to run such a poll. Are they a newspaper or a cheap Rovers match programme? (Rhet.)

I think it's safe to say that they have a symbiotic relationship.