[Archived] Next protest

[47er]

I didn't blame the protests - but it would give them a convenient excuse ?

The truth is - nobody knows their intentions - rumours of asset stripping may be true - or maybe they are just positioning us for inevitable relelgation - or possibly it is just the different way that Indian business works.

The question is I believe still a valid one - do the protesters know that the Venky's will not invest during the next window ?

No-one can know that till its happened. However all the signs and the history of the last 12 months are against it. The problem with people who want proof all the time is,that by the time they get it, its too late to do anything.

[AndyNeil]

Who cares if he was or wasn't invited to join the ineffectual fans forum quango?

Other than a jolly in Pune what have the fans forum achieved?

Answers on the head of pin to......

Unreserved seating in the Darwen End, but don't let that you get in the way of having a go.

[Hasta]

Who cares if he was or wasn't invited to join the ineffectual fans forum quango?

Other than a jolly in Pune what have the fans forum achieved during this time of crisis?

Answers on the head of pin to......

I'm just shaking my head reading some of this at the moment.You have two groups both giving up their time to actively try and improve the running of the club and the relationship it has with its fans.One is a more official than the other but both are lines of communication that we have with the club.However certain posters seem to think you have to back one and slag the other off.

[Tom]

Let's get one thing straight and out of the way, the fans forum as a body isn't against the action group and the protests nor is it for it as such. The members of the forum will all have their induvidual opinions and takes on it (some are well publicised here) but he fact that everyone will have a different take is beneficial IMO and can lead to different points being raised.

The protests are likely to be an agenda item on the next meeting and as such it was thought that Glen - clearly someone influential in this realm would have been able to bring discussion to the table about it.

Edit; well said Hasta, I wanted to point out that this isn't and never has been a them or us thing, glens views on the forum are documented and I think he's told me them himself in person, some of the members of the ff have been outspoken in condemning the protests but this is in no way rival factions. All these people are doing what they think is for the betterment of the club we all love.

[deftangel]

If Piers Morgan condemns the protests then we know that they are the moral and just thing to be doing.

Outstanding!

Targetting Venky's only has to be the right approach because I'm not sure they really know the depth of antipathy towards them. Kean will here as long as they are our owners.

The owners won't be over here soon so you'll have to make sure any protests will be seen on TV in India and that will mean headline-grabbing acts such as a sit-in pitch invasion. Either supporters feel passionately about the club or they don't and it will need concerted strong action to show Venky's they are not welcome here any more.

In order to put pressure on the owners, we need to reclaim the reasoning behind the protests as "Venky's out" from the media. Until we do this, they will carry on with the "Fans giving Kean stick, are they out of order, does he deserve credit. etc. angle". Three games of 100% Venky's protests before & after the match should be enough.

This will then allow the opportunity for a more dramatic protest. I agree with the sentiment behind a pitch invasion but you're asking a bit much to ask people to commit offences. Delaying the start of a TV game because a protest held up the team bus however, might be a more palatable alternative. Not only is that causing disruption, but as Sky are paying the money, I'm sure they would be none too pleased were that to become a regular occurrence or for a time pressured kick off like 12:45pm or a 2pm Sunday game. It might encourage them to put a little bit of pressure on the owners.

[glen9mullan]

Those changes are hopefully underway irrespective of Glen or anyone else. Discussions with Paul Hunt have been had in the week leading up to Christmas and we hope we can now have a wider scope to discuss things.

I don't know the full details so hopefully someone who knows more can.

The FF IMO has missed the boat, they are 4 months too late to the party, Paul Hunt has already had over 70 questions posed to the club, whilst a lot of solutions/recommendations have also been put forward. All put together by the supporters.

The fans forum should of got a grip of this months ago, especially as they went to Pune, However none have, none have given support to the supporters who have been seeking answers and none have put their heads above the water to make change and put a ripple in the water.

This culture of being satisfied with a position on a commitee with no active approach to making change for the better of supporters is the reason why the fans forum is stale.

We still have no satisfactory statement about the trip to pune and no satisfactory press release from the fans forum on current issue's. The fans forum is a group with a name and no direction or balls imo.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but the last few months has not been the time for going underground, its time for an elected body to fight the supporters cause, because the trip to pune and lack of no action since has lost any credibility the fans forum may have had or got.

I must state I say this as a group and not as individuals, I find many of the forum members charming and nice on a one to one when I have met them, however to invoke change or make a difference there is very little point beating about the bush. Say what you mean and what people want.

I have never once seen a press release from the FF telling supporters to come to an open meeting to discuss issues etc, The world is a much bigger place than BRFCS and sadly the fans forum does not seem to either understand this or care.

On the request to join the FF, I have emails on my computer which are private, and the club wanted me on it, this was not a guest appearance and was not proposed by the forum.

They also did not take no for an answer and followed up my decline with an email, which asked me "To strongly reconsider" followed by a phone call to ask the same.

I want a club to support and one which is run properly, I have no intention of joining a luke warm commitee which is un-elected, and has no bottle to address real issue's.

Had the FF had these things they would of addressed issues with the club, and would of approached the protest commitee, The FF playing as a go between will also never work as I have today told the club, because as a protest group we have a vote of no confidence in the FF from the 8 members who have already took part in meetings with the club, speaking to many fans over the last few months and reading the message boards the general feeling on the FF is pretty much the same.

W

I'm just shaking my head reading some of this at the moment.You have two groups both giving up their time to actively try and improve the running of the club and the relationship it has with its fans.One is a more official than the other but both are lines of communication that we have with the club.However certain posters seem to think you have to back one and slag the other off.

Although I see your point, I disagree with it, reason:

If the FF had done their job, we would not be protesting or seeking meetings, they are no pro-active enough for my liking. Rovers changes by the day and if you are not on the ball then sadly your are ineffective

(Please note this is a statement about the group and not individuals)

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I agree with the vast majority of that Glen.

[Rover_Shaun]

Like I said, in relation to the last 12 months, but was chastised for having the nerve to question an unelected quango

(in Monty Python style) "What have the Fans Forum ever done for us?"

[Exiled in Toronto]

Like I said, in relation to the last 12 months, but was chastised for having the nerve to question an unelected quango

(in Monty Python style) "What have the Fans Forum ever done for us?"

More than the equally unelected protest group it would seem.

There might have been lots of noise and teeth-pulling dialogue, but since the protest group decided they were the voice of the fans we have gone down in the league, given the manager an enhanced contract, owners have scuttled back home and are shaping up to sell our best players in the next 4 weeks. If this is succes, I'd hate to see what failure looks like.

[glen9mullan]

More than the equally unelected protest group it would seem.

There might have been lots of noise and teeth-pulling dialogue, but since the protest group decided they were the voice of the fans we have gone down in the league, given the manager an enhanced contract, owners have scuttled back home and are shaping up to sell our best players in the next 4 weeks. If this is succes, I'd hate to see what failure looks like.

The protest group is NOT the voice of the fans this is what people usually anti protesters will use as an argument. We organise protest, NO-ONE Has to take part its optional.

The protest group has and will continue to work for an elected body to represent supporters hence why we liase so much with the proposed BRST, who are big supporters of the protest group

[sijoco]

Just had a read of the comments on this article - it seems the Kean PR machine has reached the other side of the Atlantic. It's amazing how little people know apart from the "Kean the Victim" story. Apparently we are disgusting and the worst fans in the country. I'm sure the Leeds, Millwall, Birmingham, etc "fans" wouldn't be happy with us having that tag. It seems chanting your disapproval of an inept manager is up there with hooliganism, sectarian chanting and songs about Munich. Jeez.

Link to Article

[Ste B]

The protest group is NOT the voice of the fans

Its the voice that the press are hearing and repeating though.

[glen9mullan]

Its the voice that the press are hearing and repeating though.

More the reason for an elected body to be formed ASAP,

[patrickvalery]

Just had a read of the comments on this article - it seems the Kean PR machine has reached the other side of the Atlantic. It's amazing how little people know apart from the "Kean the Victim" story. Apparently we are disgusting and the worst fans in the country. I'm sure the Leeds, Millwall, Birmingham, etc "fans" wouldn't be happy with us having that tag. It seems chanting your disapproval of an inept manager is up there with hooliganism, sectarian chanting and songs about Munich. Jeez.

Link to Article

This worries me greatly. I fully understand the reasoning behind the protests - its all we've been left with. Although my personal view differs ever so slightly. That being, despite Kean being useless and clearly needing to be fired, it is Venky's who i detest. But these protests are seriously hurting the club. I hate to say that because they are entirely justified. 110%. But the press have made their own minds up. If we actually bin kean then what? This negative press and the continued support from other managers will ensure the applicants list will be short. It just feels like very which way we turn we're getting our pants pulled down.

I fully support protests to remove Venky's but with every banner comes more bad press. I don't know how, but the protests need to get a PR spin which makes us the victim not the bad buys. Because at the moment we're perceived as an ungrateful rabble who should be satisfied with life.

[Rover_Shaun]

Who cares what the media and other ibecilic fans think? This is our club and we should do all we can to save it.

[Parsonblue]

Speaking as someone who is not a member of the fans forum, nor has any interest in joining such a body, I do think you are being somewhat unfair on both the members of that body and its remit Glen.

I know several members of the forum and they are all dedicated Blackburn Rovers supporters - some have been following the club since the fifties.

The remit of the fans forum, as far as I am aware, is to discuss issues of a non-footballing nature. Thus the non-reserved seating at the Darwen End was brought forward by the Fans Forum. Issues with regard to ticket prices and ticketing arrangements for certain games are discussed. The run of the mill things that many supporters are not interested in - for example the cleaning of the Walker Fame bricks, catering issues, the club shop, the leaking roof etc.

The fact that the Forum was set up to discuss non-footballing issues means that it doesn't have the remit to discuss the issues that the protest movement might want discussing.

The Forum has been in existence for many years and it's minutes are regularly documented on the official site. It is not a secret organisation. Indeed, a number of years ago it was struggling to get members because not everybody seems to want to discuss the issues that they deal with. I know I don't but, having said that, I have been grateful to members of the Forum who have brought matters up which I have raised with them.

Unfortunately, Glen, you want them to be something they are not. Another arm of the protest movement. The Forum was set up for a specific purpose and they have continued to undertake the activities they were set up to do.

It is unfortunate that the Pune trip has thrust them into the spotlight. However, the trip was arranged by the club who wanted to owners to meet a cross-section of fans. Whatever else the Forum maybe it is certainly a cross section of fans. They were not travelling to Pune to represent the whole fanbase because they are not elected by the whole fanbase. Those who went were representing the Forum and, rightly, reported back to the Forum.

It was unfortunate that the trip was delayed to a point in the season when so many issues had come to the fore and the secrecy surrounding the trip was also an error of judgement by the club. Let's be honest, many fans in Blackburn knew about the trip long before the "official news release".

As you readily admit the protest movement, like the Forum is not an elected body, and like the Forum clearly does not please all supporters. Quite how you get a truly representative group from 20,000+ supporters is difficult. Is it limited to season ticket holders, club members or are supporters expected to join another organisation? Suppporters groups have been set up in the past but without success. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember to the old Supporters Club in the early sixties, which had been going for many years back then. It was fairly successful and had branches across Lancashire until the club's fortunes took a dive and interest declined.

The problem for both the Forum and the protest movement is the fact that the owners have retreated to the Pune bunker and the people left at Ewood have no power and no influence. They may well be affable and offer tea and sympathy to both bodies but they don't have the same standing as a John Williams or a Tom Finn.

I'm not having a dig Glen, and fully appreciate your concern. I think we all share it. I've witnessed the club fall from grace in the sixties and early seventies and have no wish to see it happen again. However, until Desai and the Brothers Grimm face up to the responsibilities of owning a football club I'm not sure what the Forum, yourself, the protest movement or anybody else can do.

[Al]

I have met several members of the FF and the ones I have met are genuine long term supporters of the club who I would place my trust in. The difference from the protest group is that they are unelected and we as ordinary fans have no control as to what their opinions are and what they discuss with the club.

On the other hand the protest group publish what they are going to do and you either follow them or you don't. It's up to you. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

In my view they are both doing their best and both should be supported for doing their what they can in their own way.

Just my take on the situation.

[glen9mullan]

Speaking as someone who is not a member of the fans forum, nor has any interest in joining such a body, I do think you are being somewhat unfair on both the members of that body and its remit Glen.

I know several members of the forum and they are all dedicated Blackburn Rovers supporters - some have been following the club since the fifties.

The remit of the fans forum, as far as I am aware, is to discuss issues of a non-footballing nature. Thus the non-reserved seating at the Darwen End was brought forward by the Fans Forum. Issues with regard to ticket prices and ticketing arrangements for certain games are discussed. The run of the mill things that many supporters are not interested in - for example the cleaning of the Walker Fame bricks, catering issues, the club shop, the leaking roof etc.

The fact that the Forum was set up to discuss non-footballing issues means that it doesn't have the remit to discuss the issues that the protest movement might want discussing.

The Forum has been in existence for many years and it's minutes are regularly documented on the official site. It is not a secret organisation. Indeed, a number of years ago it was struggling to get members because not everybody seems to want to discuss the issues that they deal with. I know I don't but, having said that, I have been grateful to members of the Forum who have brought matters up which I have raised with them.

Unfortunately, Glen, you want them to be something they are not. Another arm of the protest movement. The Forum was set up for a specific purpose and they have continued to undertake the activities they were set up to do.

It is unfortunate that the Pune trip has thrust them into the spotlight. However, the trip was arranged by the club who wanted to owners to meet a cross-section of fans. Whatever else the Forum maybe it is certainly a cross section of fans. They were not travelling to Pune to represent the whole fanbase because they are not elected by the whole fanbase. Those who went were representing the Forum and, rightly, reported back to the Forum.

It was unfortunate that the trip was delayed to a point in the season when so many issues had come to the fore and the secrecy surrounding the trip was also an error of judgement by the club. Let's be honest, many fans in Blackburn knew about the trip long before the "official news release".

As you readily admit the protest movement, like the Forum is not an elected body, and like the Forum clearly does not please all supporters. Quite how you get a truly representative group from 20,000+ supporters is difficult. Is it limited to season ticket holders, club members or are supporters expected to join another organisation? Suppporters groups have been set up in the past but without success. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember to the old Supporters Club in the early sixties, which had been going for many years back then. It was fairly successful and had branches across Lancashire until the club's fortunes took a dive and interest declined.

The problem for both the Forum and the protest movement is the fact that the owners have retreated to the Pune bunker and the people left at Ewood have no power and no influence. They may well be affable and offer tea and sympathy to both bodies but they don't have the same standing as a John Williams or a Tom Finn.

I'm not having a dig Glen, and fully appreciate your concern. I think we all share it. I've witnessed the club fall from grace in the sixties and early seventies and have no wish to see it happen again. However, until Desai and the Brothers Grimm face up to the responsibilities of owning a football club I'm not sure what the Forum, yourself, the protest movement or anybody else can do.

A fairly balanced post and one which fully supports my decision to decline Paul Hunts offer, as the Forums remit is of no interest to me. Although as a forum, they can choose to address all issue's regardless at any one meeting as after all before they are a forum, they are supporters of Blackburn Rovers FC,

I have also met quite a few forum members and spoke to others and have found them sound and without doubt passionate rovers supporters. I fully appreciate their efforts on the non footballing side, but unfortunately as we have no elected body (Something the protest group is actively trying to get the club to consider) and they went to Pune reportedly to air the supporters concerns ON footballing issue's then they cannot claim its no longer their remit? You cannot move the goal post to each given situation,

I dont know if its just me and the people I talk to, but I strongly believe the FF should of been addressing issues months ago, and if they have asked questions and got no-where with them then they should up the ante to get those answers

They appear to wait til each monthly meeting to discuss issues, and having read the minutes not an awful lot is discussed or not many answers come back.

As someone who speaks to the club on a daily basis, and DCE by email or Phone 4 or 5 times a week, I do feel the need for an elected body who is more pro-active.

I have no issue with the fans forum discussing non footballing issue's, what the last 12 months has brought is the need for an elected body to discuss more pressing issue's.

We need a group which interacts with supporters not just through the internet, but in person and are available daily, a group which can debate issues with the club, and report findings directly to the supporters. Football evolves and rovers current situation imo means if there was ever a time we needed a pro-active group, now is that time.

I fully understand many people talk a good game, but when it comes to action or joining groups they go missing or have no desire to either join, or hang about in groups like this. It takes special dedication to be part of any commitee and sometimes a group can pick itself due to a lack of interest. So dedication wise the best man for the job takes part, but for direction and impact this is not always the case. E.g would you get someone to run your company who comes to work everyday, but has no business acrumen?

Loyalty although a great characteristic is not defining enough on committee's, sadly in supporters clubs its usually loyalty which keeps them going, but also why they are held back, because people get comfortable and things go stale.

I know from organising protest what a lonely road organising and discussing things can be, Lots of people want to shoot you down from every angle, or want or wait with patience for you to fall flat on your face. They send obscene messages and write awful things about you. You get people with idea's who never want to help implement them, or have a go at you because you ask for them to help when their idea is too large for just a couple of people to put into practice. Simon Littler and I spend so many hours on Rovers related issue's and a protest at the weekend is just a 5% of the work. For just 2 men its a lot of work, despite us always asking for extra help, people offer supportive words, but not many put their hands up to do the things which have to be done on a daily basis.

As most are aware I'm currrently on Holiday, but I have not put my phone down since I have got here, speaking to solicitors, football authorities, supporters, rovers, and other clubs supporter clubs.

My computer is on as i'm interacting with supporters trying to keep them informed of developements, whilst I'm also onto the press due them either quoting me on something I have had nothing to do with, or they are reporting things wrong and sending out the wrong message.

I have been going on Rovers for over 30 years, I was there when they had nothing, been there when they had lots and I'm here now, It would be easy for people like the fans forum or people like Simon and I to say, "Oh sod it, why do I bother, we only get loads of grief for our efforts" However this has never once cross my mind, as what I do , I do out of pure passion for my football club. I could have had the answers I seek by now if I had chosen to, however I am of the opinion "If they can tell me, then everyone deserves to know as an equal supporter and stakeholder of Blackburn Rovers" . All everyone wants is the truth, and for someone somewhere to get that truth for them.

[Paul]

The FF IMO has missed the boat, they are 4 months too late to the party, Paul Hunt has already had over 70 questions posed to the club, whilst a lot of solutions/recommendations have also been put forward. All put together by the supporters.

The difficulty with this Glen is for all your criticism of the FF the protest group have made no more progress, possibly less, than the FF.

I know you will or could provide a lengthy list of "achievements" - you're on holiday, please don't, - but there is nothing in the public domain which indicates progress of any sort. You've said elsewhere you want the fan base to have the answers you could already have had - why not just get those answers and publish them?

The outcome of all of this so far is "meetings about meetings" and constant referral to daily discussion with the club. For me this tells the fans nothing. One of the protesters key aspirations is more open communication yet none outside the "eight" (and we don't know who they are though we do know the FF members) has publicaly stated what is happening.

For me protest is only worthwhile in the ground, it's apparent the club have out manoeuvred the protest group by indulging many of your requests but when the push came to the shove simply cancelled everything and turned the power of the press, media, LMA on the protest and made Rovers fans appear to be a bunch of ungrateful idiiots. I strongly object to being labelled as such.

There is no doubt in my opinion there has been an orchestrated campaign by the club or people closely associated with the club to smear the protesting supporters and this resulted in all of us bring tarred with the same brush after the Bolton game. This is the only logical explanation for the media outburst after the Bolton match.

I admire all the protesters have done but until the group can provide hard evidence of real achievements it's unfair to criticise the FF. You frequently ask where has the FF been the last four months, their response could easily be where have the protesters been for the last ten years ? The answer is above, no one was interested. I shall be very interested to see where the protest group is in ten years time.

I've read too much sniping at people who question the protests when little has been achieved by that group. It has turned me away from organised protest.

Sadly the Pune 9 appear to have had little impact and the same appears to be happening for the Protest 8. People listen then carry on as though nothing has happened.

I should say I fully understand the frustrations you and Simon encounter, the lack of help, people with words but no action etc. etc. I've been there got the T shirt many years ago.

[Paul]

Speaking as someone who is not a member of the.........

Excellent post.

[Miker]

Some excellent posts here.

[Paul Mellelieu]

More the reason for an elected body to be formed ASAP,

I fully agree with this. We need an elected body which includes many the many talents of Rovers fans to build on the work done by Glen and others. Otherwise it will lack credibility and make the kind of mistakes such as the last press release which I think is an own-goal. Just an interim committee with an aim of establising something more representative would do the job. However, as is often the case it will involve people having to compromise.

[Paul Mellelieu]

The difficulty with this Glen is for all your criticism of the FF the protest group have made no more progress, possibly less, than the FF.

I know you will or could provide a lengthy list of "achievements" - you're on holiday, please don't, - but there is nothing in the public domain which indicates progress of any sort. You've said elsewhere you want the fan base to have the answers you could already have had - why not just get those answers and publish them?

The outcome of all of this so far is "meetings about meetings" and constant referral to daily discussion with the club. For me this tells the fans nothing. One of the protesters key aspirations is more open communication yet none outside the "eight" (and we don't know who they are though we do know the FF members) has publicaly stated what is happening.

For me protest is only worthwhile in the ground, it's apparent the club have out manoeuvred the protest group by indulging many of your requests but when the push came to the shove simply cancelled everything and turned the power of the press, media, LMA on the protest and made Rovers fans appear to be a bunch of ungrateful idiiots. I strongly object to being labelled as such.

There is no doubt in my opinion there has been an orchestrated campaign by the club or people closely associated with the club to smear the protesting supporters and this resulted in all of us bring tarred with the same brush after the Bolton game. This is the only logical explanation for the media outburst after the Bolton match.

I admire all the protesters have done but until the group can provide hard evidence of real achievements it's unfair to criticise the FF. You frequently ask where has the FF been the last four months, their response could easily be where have the protesters been for the last ten years ? The answer is above, no one was interested. I shall be very interested to see where the protest group is in ten years time.

I've read too much sniping at people who question the protests when little has been achieved by that group. It has turned me away from organised protest.

Sadly the Pune 9 appear to have had little impact and the same appears to be happening for the Protest 8. People listen then carry on as though nothing has happened.

I should say I fully understand the frustrations you and Simon encounter, the lack of help, people with words but no action etc. etc. I've been there got the T shirt many years ago.

Bloody hell Paul, the protests have raised the plight of the club in quality newspapers, got media coverage on a regular basis and mobilised a large part of the fan base against Venkys.

[majorstyre]

Some very well presented and argued cases here - from both sides.

I think that Glen and the Protest group has done a excellent job under the circumstances, and has highlighted our issues in the media.

He has been given a lot of unfair grief from all angles, yet is holding his head high amongst the snipers.

The FF i am a little less knowledgeable about, and i am sure that they are doing their best in the circumstances. However from my point of view (an outsider from the FF), the visit to Pune has turned into a PR disaster for them. Without the full & transparent minutes of what actually happened out there, the visit seems to have held little use, and if anything given a negative slant upon them.

My biggest fear is where do we go from here?.

Everybody on this side of the BRFC fence wants what is best for the club.

The club (Venkys - this is pointed at you) are making very little noise, if any.

This silence speaks a thousand words - they have no interest in the Fan, the lifeblood of the club.

From all outside perspectives, they are doing nothing.

My fear for the last 12 months is that they are here in a capacity of self propaganda and asset stripping. I am seeing absolutely nothing at the moment to signify anything other than that.

As i said we do we go from here?

I would love to come up with some all inspiring wonderful idea that pushes the protests forward, that gives us real credence, and real clout to really hit home our message to the owners and to know that we are being successful.

However, as one previous poster mentioned, the club did a deliberate hatchet job on the protests following the Bolton game, and the media now perceive us as the bad guys in all this situation.

This in turn is turning those against us who are not informed of the true facts of what is happening.

I can see another greater problem affecting all the protests though - Apathy

I know that there was a truce called for the Stoke game, yet there was growing feeling of apathy around the ground, almost a resignation of our fate.

People starting to believe that the end is nigh, and there is nothing they could do.

This will be the greatest foe in the challenge.

We need the protests to inspire our fight, to join us all together in the cause

We need to rid the club from the cancer that is running through it

We cannot afford any more infighting

We all know that the Club is on a knifes edge here, and we cannot allow it to fall or be pushed over into the abyss.

Apologies in advance for the how the post seemed to run into an almost "Churchill-ian" type speech.

Keep up the good work Glen.

Cheers

Tony

[Paul]

Bloody hell Paul, the protests have raised the plight of the club in quality newspapers, got media coverage on a regular basis and mobilised a large part of the fan base against Venkys.

But all we have is Kean still here, no sign of a transfer budget or policy, the Raos disconnected from the club and the club management cancelling promised meetings.