[Archived] Next protest

[Mike Graham]

But all we have is Kean still here, no sign of a transfer budget or policy, the Raos disconnected from the club and the club management cancelling promised meetings.

Paul, what exactly have the FF achieved apart from ridicule regarding the Pune trip?

Unreserved seating in the Darwen End, but don't let that you get in the way of having a go.

Big deal....anything else please FB?

[daveoftherovers]

Excellent post.

Agreed

[Darwen_Blue]

Has there been any thought or discussion about getting a fans union organised in the same way Liverpool organised themselves into the spirit of shankley (SOS) and united did.? And if not what about doing so..? I take my hat off to Glen for what he has done but the focus needs to shift towards the Venkys with elected representation. From reading through the SOS website they have set themselves up like a trade union with every member have a vote with an elected management committee.

On field we are where we are but we need to be looking long term and act before the administrators lock the gates for good.

What about modeling the structure like the SOS and engage with them to see how they went about setting it up

I think more people like the business men who went out to India, the guy from WEC, Andy Cryer, Glen etc as well as other fans would get behind something that is more formally structured with a clear set of objectives. I know I would.

SOS was a main part of the demise of Hicks and Gillette but they weren't sorely involved there were of course the more militant groups setup to protest etc.

Just a thought as there as lots of disenfranchised fans who don't agree with Glen's protests and would rather focus efforts sorely on the Venkys. We are struggling with our endeavors as we are not all united under one cause. The message is mixed but granted the message is changing amongst fans to focus on the Venkys but not with the rest of the football world.

Well done to Glen & co for their efforts so far.

[eire3382]

Its time that the protest group, FF, other rovers groups, Jack Straw and who ever else all band together.

I realise not everyone wants to protest in the same way but a huge united group with one clear message would be far more effective.

by now surely everyone wants kean gone we can all agree on that so a statement to that effect from such a group show the media etc what we have all known for months. All the fans want him gone.

Add to that some statement towards Venkys. There is little point telling them to P$SS off but offer them the chance to answer the major questions.

Bridges of communications are needed, somehow we are still within touching distance of the clubs around us. The time to act is now and no later

Key key here is everyone must now unite it is the only way. The protests have worked to a point but this kind of move would put huge pressure on the club to act.

[Miker]

I have two things to add to this discussion:

1.)

Like it or not, we are at the mercy of the owners. They have not done anything that they could be taken to court for or put them into disrepute, so taking that course of action is senseless. You will not be successful in trying to smear their name in India, they are too well-established there and highly respected within the Indian community for some football fans to have any real impact. You can't just drive them out because if anything can negatively impact on their image and their brand then it would be to give up, sell at the first opportunity and be branded massive failures, so they will NOT sell. More complaining, more protesting and more demanding will not pressure them into action or fasten the process. Either they are taking action, or they are not.

2.)

If we were to create some sort of new fan forum (consisting of elected members) that would discuss footballing matters specifically, and seemingly financial and managerial matters as well, then what would their exact role be? Would they discuss the best course of action and advise the board of directors or the owners? Would they be the ones making the decisions? The impression I'm getting with this is that you don't want to setup a forum that simply gives advice, but a forum that can actually take action. This to me suggests that you want the owners to virtually hand power over to the fans to make all decisions. If not, then what is the point of having such a forum? The same issues that would be discussed there would have been discussed extensively already on this board and elsewhere. I know for a fact that a number of fans (including the Pune 9) and various public figures have spoken to the owners directly, advised them on what to do and explained in detail the issues they are concerned about. I know for a fact that their representatives monitor these boards to gauge what the supporters feel and want. So if they have already taken all of this advice on board and haven't done anything, what makes you think that an elected body of fans could achieve something different?

It seems to me that they are either rejecting this advice and going their own way, or they are taking this advice on board but struggling to put it into action.

I would suggest that the emphasis of the "protests" should at this point in time not be centred on getting "Kean Out", or getting "Venky's Out", but requesting that some sort of reassurances are given to the fans that there is an action plan and at least hint at what that is. How much they could realistically disclose is the issue though. For instance, even if they were looking to replace Kean, but have been unsuccessful, they will not come out and tell us this. It's also my opinion that through various statements on the official site and also in the accounts that Venky's HAVE provided us with several assurances. Given fans are reasonably unhappy with the lack of action to backup these words, a massive step in the right direction for me would be if they came out and spoke honestly about any difficulties they are experiencing in running the club. Whether it be being misled by advisors, unexpectedly high agent fees, making wrong decisions, finding negotiations with various parties too difficult, financial constraints or struggling to understand English culture and football culture.

Out of interest, when was the last time the owners made any sort of communication to/about the club? Since the Wigan game?

[Darwen_Blue]

"This to me suggests that you want the owners to virtually hand power over to the fans to make all decisions. If not, then what is the point of having such a forum?"

That's not what I had in mind it would be to represent the best interests of the supporters of BRFC to the owners, try to open up a positive line of communication with Venky's, to build long lasting relationships with all supporters groups, to try and get supporter representation at board room level. As a starter for 10!

[AndyNeil]

Paul, what exactly have the FF achieved apart from ridicule regarding the Pune trip?

Big deal....anything else please FB?

I'm sure it was to the 2000 or so who had the option of un-reserved seating last season - not everybody can afford to sit in the Jack Walk Upper. As for what else the FF has achieved, bearing in mind until the last meeting, football matters were off the table (as I'm sure you know), what else do you think we could have achieved?

[Ben-2000]

I'm sure it was to the 2000 or so who had the option of un-reserved seating last season - not everybody can afford to sit in the Jack Walk Upper. As for what else the FF has achieved, bearing in mind until the last meeting, football matters were off the table (as I'm sure you know), what else do you think we could have achieved?

Correct - also the unreserved seating has not only improved the situation regarding people being able to sit together without the hassle of having to find spare seats, it has also improved the atmosphere at Ewood which was somewhat lacking.

[Miker]

"This to me suggests that you want the owners to virtually hand power over to the fans to make all decisions. If not, then what is the point of having such a forum?"

That's not what I had in mind it would be to represent the best interests of the supporters of BRFC to the owners, try to open up a positive line of communication with Venky's, to build long lasting relationships with all supporters groups, to try and get supporter representation at board room level. As a starter for 10!

That's fine, but what will all that actually entail?

You say you want a positive line of communication, yet to achieve it we've started with negative communication to the club. The people that tried to establish a positive line of communication ("the Pune 9") were in fact attacked by people on this board for trying to do so, and I have to put my hand up here and say I was also against their trip at the time.

Interestingly enough it did seem like they were trying to "build long lasting relationships with supporter groups", but they seem to have withdrawn that offer following extended protests.

I'm not sure how you would go about getting supporter representation at board room level. I agree that this may be a good step though.

But again, what will any of that actually achieve? Other than supporter representation at board room level, all you'll be doing is expressing fan concerns that have already been expressed to the owners a dozen times. It doesn't change anything.

[den]

Whoa Whoa, the unreserved seating idea was first put to the club by BRISA, as has been said before. It wasn't the idea of the FF as far as I can remember. It really doesn't matter though, does it?

My suggestion to the FF would be to get together and issue a statement of where you stand on the current situation. It can be a very effective move if worded correctly. I know for sure there are plenty of people on the FF who are very capable of wording this right and getting the message into the right areas. You don't need to become all representative. You don't need to change your remit.

Media/fan pressure is the only thing that fans have in their armoury.

[Ozz]

Whether it be the FF or Glens protests, it's clear to me that both parties are practically impotent in their attempts to get changes made that will ultimately avoid the single biggest problem Rovers have faced in a decade, namely the highly likely event of us being relegated from the top flight of English football.

We appear to be in a unique position - the manager is untouchable, the owners unreachable, our attempts at self preservation inaudible and the future unthinkable.

The only way out seems to be hope for a miracle, and I aint holding my breath for that to happen.

[yoda]

Speaking as someone who is not a member of the fans forum, nor has any interest in joining such a body, I do think you are being somewhat unfair on both the members of that body and its remit Glen.

I know several members of the forum and they are all dedicated Blackburn Rovers supporters - some have been following the club since the fifties.

The remit of the fans forum, as far as I am aware, is to discuss issues of a non-footballing nature. Thus the non-reserved seating at the Darwen End was brought forward by the Fans Forum. Issues with regard to ticket prices and ticketing arrangements for certain games are discussed. The run of the mill things that many supporters are not interested in - for example the cleaning of the Walker Fame bricks, catering issues, the club shop, the leaking roof etc.

The fact that the Forum was set up to discuss non-footballing issues means that it doesn't have the remit to discuss the issues that the protest movement might want discussing.

The Forum has been in existence for many years and it's minutes are regularly documented on the official site. It is not a secret organisation. Indeed, a number of years ago it was struggling to get members because not everybody seems to want to discuss the issues that they deal with. I know I don't but, having said that, I have been grateful to members of the Forum who have brought matters up which I have raised with them.

Unfortunately, Glen, you want them to be something they are not. Another arm of the protest movement. The Forum was set up for a specific purpose and they have continued to undertake the activities they were set up to do.

It is unfortunate that the Pune trip has thrust them into the spotlight. However, the trip was arranged by the club who wanted to owners to meet a cross-section of fans. Whatever else the Forum maybe it is certainly a cross section of fans. They were not travelling to Pune to represent the whole fanbase because they are not elected by the whole fanbase. Those who went were representing the Forum and, rightly, reported back to the Forum.

It was unfortunate that the trip was delayed to a point in the season when so many issues had come to the fore and the secrecy surrounding the trip was also an error of judgement by the club. Let's be honest, many fans in Blackburn knew about the trip long before the "official news release".

As you readily admit the protest movement, like the Forum is not an elected body, and like the Forum clearly does not please all supporters. Quite how you get a truly representative group from 20,000+ supporters is difficult. Is it limited to season ticket holders, club members or are supporters expected to join another organisation? Suppporters groups have been set up in the past but without success. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember to the old Supporters Club in the early sixties, which had been going for many years back then. It was fairly successful and had branches across Lancashire until the club's fortunes took a dive and interest declined.

The problem for both the Forum and the protest movement is the fact that the owners have retreated to the Pune bunker and the people left at Ewood have no power and no influence. They may well be affable and offer tea and sympathy to both bodies but they don't have the same standing as a John Williams or a Tom Finn.

I'm not having a dig Glen, and fully appreciate your concern. I think we all share it. I've witnessed the club fall from grace in the sixties and early seventies and have no wish to see it happen again. However, until Desai and the Brothers Grimm face up to the responsibilities of owning a football club I'm not sure what the Forum, yourself, the protest movement or anybody else can do.

A fans forum of a football club that can't talk about football matters FFS

A bit like watching a video with the television turned of.

[AndyNeil]

Whoa Whoa, the unreserved seating idea was first put to the club by BRISA, as has been said before. It wasn't the idea of the FF as far as I can remember. It really doesn't matter though, does it?

My suggestion to the FF would be to get together and issue a statement of where you stand on the current situation. It can be a very effective move if worded correctly. I know for sure there are plenty of people on the FF who are very capable of wording this right and getting the message into the right areas. You don't need to become all representative. You don't need to change your remit.

Media/fan pressure is the only thing that fans have in their armoury.

I wasn't of aware of that Den, so for I apologise for any offence caused. However I was in the meetings with the club (via the FF) when the idea of unreserved seating was muted. It wasn't totally our idea and to be fair to the club, I think the thing that confirmed the demand for the idea was the origianl 'Crucial 3'.

This is in no way meant to sound sarcastic (as I think the idea has legs), but just to confirm when you talk about the current situation, do you mean regarding Kean/Venkys, or Kean/Venkys/Protest/Bank/I could go on forever?

A fans forum of a football club that can't talk about football matters FFS

A bit like watching a video with the television turned of.

That was the original remit of the FF, as set-up under the stewardship of Tom Finn (I'm lead to believe).

[yoda]

I wasn't of aware of that Den, so for I apologise for any offence caused. However I was in the meetings with the club (via the FF) when the idea of unreserved seating was muted. It wasn't totally our idea and to be fair to the club, I think the thing that confirmed the demand for the idea was the origianl 'Crucial 3'.

This is in no way meant to sound sarcastic (as I think the idea has legs), but just to confirm when you talk about the current situation, do you mean regarding Kean/Venkys, or Kean/Venkys/Protest/Bank/I could go on forever?

That was the original remit of the FF, as set-up under the stewardship of Tom Finn (I'm lead to believe).

You always find out what character people have when the pressure is on

Keep up the good work Glen

[Roost]

Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but our six fingered friends now refer to Glen & Simon as their heroes:

Oh Dear

Also, what's this crap about asking Rovers fans to boycott Newcastle v Rovers and go and watch Chorley?? If that's true then shame on you.

[bannedwidth]

Whether it be the FF or Glens protests, it's clear to me that both parties are practically impotent in their attempts to get changes made that will ultimately avoid the single biggest problem Rovers have faced in a decade, namely the highly likely event of us being relegated from the top flight of English football.

We appear to be in a unique position - the manager is untouchable, the owners unreachable, our attempts at self preservation inaudible and the future unthinkable.

The only way out seems to be hope for a miracle, and I aint holding my breath for that to happen.

Spot on. The fans are powerless.

[Roost]

Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but it seems that Simon & Glen are the new heroes of our six fingered friends:

Oh Dear............

Also, is it true that some are calling for the boycott of the Newcastle v BRFC game and are being asked to support Chorley instead?? WTF, if true then you should be ashamed.

[Tom]

There are ways and means of going about things, the fans forum wanted to open communication channels between the fans and the owners and had recieved some good feedback along these lines, the protests have put that back sadly and for many it's gone past the stage where they want dialogue anyway, some clearly just want the owners out under any circumstances.

Answers are needed. Some believe a more in your face approach is the way to go about it, others believe a more tactful approach would bare fruit, it's nice that people on both sides of these school of thought feel the need to attack the other.

I would say the protests possibly set back what we wanted to achieve (and beleive we would have) but the protesters had every right to do so so that isnt a slight on them.

If we get a chance for further dialogue between owners and fans I'm sure we will take that and if not we will continue to push for that.

[den]

I wasn't of aware of that Den, so for I apologise for any offence caused. However I was in the meetings with the club (via the FF) when the idea of unreserved seating was muted. It wasn't totally our idea and to be fair to the club, I think the thing that confirmed the demand for the idea was the origianl 'Crucial 3'.

This is in no way meant to sound sarcastic (as I think the idea has legs), but just to confirm when you talk about the current situation, do you mean regarding Kean/Venkys, or Kean/Venkys/Protest/Bank/I could go on forever?

That was the original remit of the FF, as set-up under the stewardship of Tom Finn (I'm lead to believe).

No offence caused whatsoever FHB. The Ff took the unreserved seating idea up, wherever it came from and saw it through. Credit for that.

I think the FF are in a position where they can, nay should, make their views known about the situation they consider the club currently to be in. I would stay away from the subject of protests, but you are certainly entitled to make a statement on behalf of the FF members. You don't need to change any remit for that. You don't need to be actually representative of anyone other than yourselves. Basically, you can say how the FF wishes to join other parties [such as Straw, White etc in having grave worries about the management of the club by the Raos.]

It's not for me to say how your statement should be worded, but the fact that the FF has always been an active supporter of BRFC, should give you credibility.

What else can you do? Not much, I don't think.

[K-Hod]

There are ways and means of going about things, the fans forum wanted to open communication channels between the fans and the owners and had recieved some good feedback along these lines, the protests have put that back sadly and for many it's gone past the stage where they want dialogue anyway, some clearly just want the owners out under any circumstances.

Answers are needed. Some believe a more in your face approach is the way to go about it, others believe a more tactful approach would bare fruit, it's nice that people on both sides of these school of thought feel the need to attack the other.

I would say the protests possibly set back what we wanted to achieve (and beleive we would have) but the protesters had every right to do so so that isnt a slight on them.

If we get a chance for further dialogue between owners and fans I'm sure we will take that and if not we will continue to push for that.

The last paragraph sums it up for me, apart from a trip to Pune to meet the owners, it's been nigh on impossible to speak to the architects of this great mess we're in (the owners) and hold them accountable, or at least for them to make amends and go some way to sorting it all out.

Though in my opinion, we're way past that now....

[47er]

There are ways and means of going about things, the fans forum wanted to open communication channels between the fans and the owners and had recieved some good feedback along these lines, the protests have put that back sadly and for many it's gone past the stage where they want dialogue anyway, some clearly just want the owners out under any circumstances.

Answers are needed. Some believe a more in your face approach is the way to go about it, others believe a more tactful approach would bare fruit, it's nice that people on both sides of these school of thought feel the need to attack the other.

I would say the protests possibly set back what we wanted to achieve (and beleive we would have) but the protesters had every right to do so so that isnt a slight on them.

If we get a chance for further dialogue between owners and fans I'm sure we will take that and if not we will continue to push for that.

So, but for the protests you would have a meaningful dialogue with the owners by now or be nearer to it? I can't believe you are so naive after the way you were treated in Pune.

You were used for their PR purposes and they had no real interest in anything you had to say. In fact they took no notice of you and did the opposite. At least I hope that was the case.

They are not interested in anything we have to say. The protests were and are inevitable. Rovers supporters have been patient for too long.

[AggyBlue]

Also, is it true that some are calling for the boycott of the Newcastle v BRFC game and are being asked to support Chorley instead?? WTF, if true then you should be ashamed.

I'll be on Chorley and won't feel ashamed, why the hell should I?

[4000Holes]

There are ways and means of going about things, the fans forum wanted to open communication channels between the fans and the owners and had recieved some good feedback along these lines, the protests have put that back sadly and for many it's gone past the stage where they want dialogue anyway, some clearly just want the owners out under any circumstances.

Answers are needed. Some believe a more in your face approach is the way to go about it, others believe a more tactful approach would bare fruit, it's nice that people on both sides of these school of thought feel the need to attack the other.

I would say the protests possibly set back what we wanted to achieve (and beleive we would have) but the protesters had every right to do so so that isnt a slight on them.

If we get a chance for further dialogue between owners and fans I'm sure we will take that and if not we will continue to push for that.

How about a different kind of protest? Contact some of the main Indian companies trading in the UK e.g. TATA motors, Kingfisher, etc. pointing out that Venky's are becoming a laughing stock and not credible, worthy or honest people and with this situation which is getting out of hand it is spilling over to Indian management in general. Is there any pressure they could put on Venky's to stop this occuring before it effects their companies?

[Tom]

So, but for the protests you would have a meaningful dialogue with the owners by now or be nearer to it? I can't believe you are so naive after the way you were treated in Pune.

You were used for their PR purposes and they had no real interest in anything you had to say. In fact they took no notice of you and did the opposite. At least I hope that was the case.

They are not interested in anything we have to say. The protests were and are inevitable. Rovers supporters have been patient for too long.

All I am saying is to this point that is the route the forum have taken, that's not to say it will remain the case indefinitely.

Nobody can say what would have happened so I wouldn't claim we would have done anything but now I think the owners are unlikely to enter the country for a long while after Venky was spooked beforw the wigan game (not an organised protest i will add) which will make any talks with any groups a lot harder.

Like I said clearly answers are needed as to what the hell is going on, some people want those answers and I imagine some are past caring and just want rid (which I imagine is unlikely)

It's not as if the FF is pro-owners just it seeked communication with them rather than total radio silence with the fans.

[beatrix]

The protests have made it obvious that the majority of fans want Kean and the venkys out. What more can be acheived ?

If we are not careful it will look to the outside world that the fans protests are making the situation worse and affecting

the team during games, Kean is very obviously not up to the job as recently illustrated against Stoke.Surely the direction of

the protests should now shift 100% to the venkys/raos, they have created this situation and are the only ones who can change

anything. I appreciate it is difficult to get at them but targetting Kean is doing no good now. If the papers can be believed

at least Samba and Hoillet are on their way leaving us with a worse first team squad, if they go we will probably be relegated.

The venkys are not thinking football they are thinking finance and the implications of relegation. Quite right in some ways.

Somehow they have to be influenced to change things, otherwise we could cascade down the divisions or even worse go out

of existence or into administration.