[Archived] Is it legal to eject someone due to their clothing?

[stuwilky]

WARNING Trespass can also be a criminal offence if it constitutes 'aggravated' trespass under Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 section 68. This may occur, for instance, where people are engaged in an activity and you are obstructing or disrupting that activity. Under section 69 the police can arrest you if you refuse to leave after they have requested you to do so.

Would be very hard to prove that anyone wearing a tshirt was disrupting anyone else watching a football match though!

[winstonsmith]

Would be very hard to prove that anyone wearing a tshirt was disrupting anyone else watching a football match though!

True, but it just might not be advisable to get too 'shirty' with the police if they ask you to leave if you don't fancy a visit to the cells !

[FourLaneBlue]

Trespass is a civil matter though, and therefore the police can have NOTHING to do with it, especially not arrest you. If they did you'd be able to smack them with a wrongful arrest claim. It's the old 'trespassers will be prosecuted' fallacy...

That only makes sense if you ignore everything else.

When the purchase is made, surely a contract is entered into between the purchaser and the company offering the service. They can't just arbitrarily force the customer to take off their clothes unless there are sound reasons behind it. It would be like a landlord telling a customer to remove their t-shirt because it is blue and then throwing him out. To suggest the matter would be so black-and-white is daft.

As for trespassing...you can't just let someone in, charge for it and then randomly say they are trespassing. Would I be trespassing in a hotel room if the management suddenly decided to tell me to leave without any particularly reasonable reason?

Apart from anything else, to suggest it would have anything to do with trespass is surely wrong in the first place. Trespass is unauthorized entry, isn't it? How can you be trespassing when you have been sold the ticket and allowed in? Could a landlord ask a tenant to leave a flat immediately, arbitrarily and without a valid reason?

It's as if customers don't actually have any rights in this country. Since when do Blackburn Rovers tickets mean more than the law of the land?

It is a grey area...and if fans joined together and took the club to court, there is no reason to believe the judge would side with an unreasonable club.

WARNING Trespass can also be a criminal offence if it constitutes 'aggravated' trespass under Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 section 68. This may occur, for instance, where people are engaged in an activity and you are obstructing or disrupting that activity. Under section 69 the police can arrest you if you refuse to leave after they have requested you to do so.

Does that really apply to a situation when you have been allowed entry and, indeed, paid for the privilege.

It may come under a public disorder (I think it would be thrown out in court, however) but "trespass"...you are wide of the mark.

How can it be "aggravated" trespass when the entry was not unauthorized in the first place?

[Kendalrover]

There is a simple solution to all this. If the club do ban 'protest T shirts' then we could just adopt the colour and wear shirts with no writing on. They can't ban you entering the stadium just because you are wearing a yellow T shirt.

[ebenrocks]

It certainly is the law that you can become a trespasser even if you have entered a premises as an invitee. And yes, if a hotelier withdrew their consent for you to be on the premises, you would be required to leave. Obviously, if you were doing nothing wrong, you would be able to get your money back (probably through equity), but if they could show you breached the terms and conditions of your stay in any way then you can be thrown out and not compensated - your breach voids the contract. I dont think people really realise what they are signing upto in terms and conditions sometimes. No-one reads them so companies can put whatever they like (within reason) in, knowing the customer will be bound.

[FourLaneBlue]

It certainly is the law that you can become a trespasser even if you have entered a premises as an invitee. And yes, if a hotelier withdrew their consent for you to be on the premises, you would be required to leave. Obviously, if you were doing nothing wrong, you would be able to get your money back (probably through equity), but if they could show you breached the terms and conditions of your stay in any way then you can be thrown out and not compensated - your breach voids the contract. I dont think people really realise what they are signing upto in terms and conditions sometimes. No-one reads them so companies can put whatever they like (within reason) in, knowing the customer will be bound.

Yes, but in this circumstance, would they really be trespassers? If it was taken to court, would it be upheld? Would they be able to instantaneously, and with force, throw somebody out because their T-shirt had something on that they did not like but was not, in any way, illegal. Nor could it really be said to be inflammatory if they were just sat there watching the game and minding their own business.

Steward - Take off that T-shirt.

Fan - No, it's bloody cold and it's all I have. I'm just sat here watching the game, I'm not even singing or chanting.

Steward - Right, you are a trespasser. The cops are going to manhandle your peaceful a$$ outta the ground! Maybe hit you with a truncheon now and then, as well...Welcome to Venky's BRFCS!

[ebenrocks]

haha, well they would have to say that the shirt went against the terms and conditions of your entry (and evidence this), and tell you that refusal to leave would lead to you being a trespasser on their property. Then, as it seems, if you did not leave, this would constitute an obstruction to their job, and you would now commit the arrestable offence of aggravated trespass, meaning the police could get involved. At court the club would merely need to show that the term was incorporated into your contract with the club through a contractual document (it may be on the back of the ticket, or as shown in my earlier post as part of the package when you sign up for a new season ticket), that you breached that term. The police would need to show that you, now as a trespasser due to your breach of contract, obstructed staff in the course of their duty.

I have just sent an email to the club asking for their policy on protest shirts. I have included that as fans who are being actively silenced by the club, we wish to see some evidence that supports their views that not banning such items or chanting would lead to potential disorder. I have also requested them, using their own logic against them, to ban all Pro-Kean slogans and chanting as this is just as (if not more) likely to cause disorder between supporters.

We'll see what they have to say about that.

[PAFELL]

Yes, but in this circumstance, would they really be trespassers? If it was taken to court, would it be upheld? Would they be able to instantaneously, and with force, throw somebody out because their T-shirt had something on that they did not like but was not, in any way, illegal. Nor could it really be said to be inflammatory if they were just sat there watching the game and minding their own business.

Steward - Take off that T-shirt.

Fan - No, it's bloody cold and it's all I have. I'm just sat here watching the game, I'm not even singing or chanting.

Steward - Right, you are a trespasser. The cops are going to manhandle your peaceful a$$ outta the ground! Maybe hit you with a truncheon now and then, as well...Welcome to Venky's BRFCS!

When ever you buy a ticket, it is subject to terms and conditions.

Yes in the scenario you mentioned, you would lose in court.

You got into the ground, sat down and watching the match peacefully. Steward notice you wearing your yellow t-shirt. They will 1/ mention it to a collegue to get advice. 2/ you would eventually be approached and asked to cover up your shirt 3/ if you refused or had no clothing available to cover up, they could either, warn you or ask you to leave the ground 4/ If you refuse they will ask you to leave your seat and go with them. 5/ if you refuse, and others around you start getting heated or giving the stewards abuse. It could be considered that you refusal is likely to cause anti-social behaviour etc etc. Bottom line is you can be forced from your seat - though this would be done with advice from police. The police camera would already be on you. So all action from you and the stewards etc are recorded. Don't forget the club pay the Police. Their policy is always to let the club (stewards) control the crowd. Unless it is obvious that they cannot do so. But they would not get involved unless requested by the stewards to do so.

I have paraphrased everything. But yes you can be forceable moved from the ground. The truth is if the law want to prosecute you, they will find a way of doing so.

[winstonsmith]

Yes, but in this circumstance, would they really be trespassers? If it was taken to court, would it be upheld? Would they be able to instantaneously, and with force, throw somebody out because their T-shirt had something on that they did not like but was not, in any way, illegal. Nor could it really be said to be inflammatory if they were just sat there watching the game and minding their own business.

Steward - Take off that T-shirt.

Fan - No, it's bloody cold and it's all I have. I'm just sat here watching the game, I'm not even singing or chanting.

Steward - Right, you are a trespasser. The cops are going to manhandle your peaceful a$$ outta the ground! Maybe hit you with a truncheon now and then, as well...Welcome to Venky's BRFCS!

I can't really imagine any protester wearing such a T shirt not joining in the anti-Kean and anti-Venky's chants. I certainly will be !

You are right to doubt whether such a case would be upheld by a court. However, I do think that there would be a possibility of being arrested were you to refuse a police request to leave a football ground. My point was that it would be a mistake to believe that there was no risk to you at all of arrest in refusing a police request to leave. It is much better to go into these situations with your eyes wide open.

[FourLaneBlue]

haha, well they would have to say that the shirt went against the terms and conditions of your entry (and evidence this), and tell you that refusal to leave would lead to you being a trespasser on their property. Then, as it seems, if you did not leave, this would constitute an obstruction to their job, and you would now commit the arrestable offence of aggravated trespass, meaning the police could get involved. At court the club would merely need to show that the term was incorporated into your contract with the club through a contractual document (it may be on the back of the ticket, or as shown in my earlier post as part of the package when you sign up for a new season ticket), that you breached that term. The police would need to show that you, now as a trespasser due to your breach of contract, obstructed staff in the course of their duty.

In court, though, both sides are allowed their say.

Therefore, if the fan said that it did not specifically say anything about wearing a yellow shirt, and that they were sat there peacefully, would the judge not perhaps deem the amount of force to be unreasonable?

How about if the fan suggested it interfered with his rights under the Human Rights Act?

Has there ever been a similar suggestion before?

You are right to doubt whether such a case would be upheld by a court. However, I do think that there would be a possibility of being arrested were you to refuse a police request to leave a football ground. My point was that it would be a mistake to believe that there was no risk to you at all of arrest in refusing a police request to leave. It is much better to go into these situations with your eyes wide open.

Should it really be a police matter? Are they overstepping their authority in such a situation? This should be a civil matter. There police are there to uphold the safety of the supporters, not the desires and whims of the club to stop the peaceful, free speech of their supporters.

5/ if you refuse, and others around you start getting heated or giving the stewards abuse. It could be considered that you refusal is likely to cause anti-social behaviour etc etc.

Could the action of the stewards not be interpreted as being threatening, antisocial and discriminatory?

Is it right to subject people to different treatment because of the T-shirt they wear? If this t-shirt is not in itself discrimnatory?

Or do we have Keanism to add to racism and sexism etc., these days?

PS - I'm just arguing it from the other side really, bit of devil's advocate, and because it is quite an interesting question in the first place.

[Pedro]

It's great to see the amount of effort that the Venkys are putting in in order to preserve poor Steve Kean's feelings, if only we were given half of the effort to help preserve our elite status

By banning certain types of clothing the club are simply drawing a greater deal of attention to what is going on, so it's just another own goal.

Like Abbey said though, what the hell has our club become? Telling us poor, long-suffering fans what we can and can't say, wear or do! What friggin year is this??

[Seggie]

If they did start asking people to leave because of protest T Shirts this wouldcreate negative publicity so its likely they won't go down this route.

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Oh wait what was I thinking

[stuwilky]

For the record, all this talk of legal stuffs forgets that we are football fans, and therefore subject to the whims of the stadium management team, the local constabulary and anyone else who chooses to stick their nose in.

We have no rights once we approach a football ground.

[ebenrocks]

In court, though, both sides are allowed their say.

Therefore, if the fan said that it did not specifically say anything about wearing a yellow shirt, and that they were sat there peacefully, would the judge not perhaps deem the amount of force to be unreasonable?

How about if the fan suggested it interfered with his rights under the Human Rights Act?

Has there ever been a similar suggestion before?

Should it really be a police matter? Are they overstepping their authority in such a situation? This should be a civil matter. There police are there to uphold the safety of the supporters, not the desires and whims of the club to stop the peaceful, free speech of their supporters.

Could the action of the stewards not be interpreted as being threatening, antisocial and discriminatory?

Is it right to subject people to different treatment because of the T-shirt they wear? If this t-shirt is not in itself discrimnatory?

Or do we have Keanism to add to racism and sexism etc., these days?

PS - I'm just arguing it from the other side really, bit of devil's advocate, and because it is quite an interesting question in the first place.

I was a court usher for 2 years at a crown court in London that dealt with a lot of public disorder matters, as well as a few football ones, and I've never heard of anything like this before. It was always opposition fans kicking off at each other for chanting, never a club kicking off at its own fans! The whole situation is absolutely absurd.

As said before, I am very dubious as to whether the HRA 1998 would have any effect here. The Human Rights Act, which incorporates the European Convention of Human Rights into UK law is ONLY applicable to public entities. As such, if a private individual (which a football club would come under as it is not publically funded- the definition of a Public entity as stated in the case of YL v Birmingham is that it must be publically funded, that is funded from tax, and exercise a public function) did something to someone that breached one of the rights within the ECHR then the Human Rights Act would not be able to be used to protect that individual. Breaches of some articles such as Article 2 right to life and Article 3 torture could be dealt with under UK criminal law, however as to Article 10 freedom of expression, I'm not educated in the law enough to tell you whether there is an equivalent charge that could be brought.

As to the police getting involved, the way I understand it from the statements released from the club is that they came to some sort of agreement with the Police in which they decided it was in the interest of public safety to ban banners. If this is the case the police will probably be able to concoct some charge for banner holders... possibly under s.4(1)a of the Public Order Act 1986 which states:

'A person is guilty of an offence if he— distributes or displays to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting'

S.4(3) of the Act states:

'A constable may arrest without warrant anyone he reasonably suspects is committing an offence under this section'

s.4(5) states that if convicted you are liable to serve upto 6 months imprisonment or a level 5 fine (£5000)

As to the stewards behaviour being threatening or abusive, under s.24(3) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 a person who is not a constable may arrest someone for a summary offence (which is what the s.4 POA 1986 offence is) if:

A)the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection 4 (to prevent a person causing physical injury to himself or any other person, suffering physical injury, causing loss of or damage to property, making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him) it is necessary to arrest the person in question; and

B)it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.

As you can see from this, if a steward see's you committing the offence of 'Fear or Provocation of Violence' under s.4 POA 1986, and has reasonable grounds to believe that this offence could lead to you getting hurt, someone else getting hurt etc, AND its not practical for a police officer to come and arrest you, then they will have the power to arrest you instead. In this way, although it seems pretty complicated, it would actually be relatively easy for a steward to detain you, and therefore, the likelihood of them being seen as acting threateningly or abusively by stopping you from showing the sign is slim.

As I said, I'm only a second year law student so if I am wrong about any of this i hope someone better qualified to talk on the matter will correct me!

Sam

[Steve Moss]

Ebenrocks,

Under the above definition, could a fan or group of fans arrest stewards if they had "reasonable grounds to believe that this offence could lead to you getting hurt, someone else getting hurt etc, AND its not practical for a police officer to come and arrest you"?

And how would the police treat that?

For example, if a steward in a Rovers' jacket was engaged in conduct which could be reasonably construed as inciting the fans, could they arrest him to safeguard his health?

It's my opinion that law, if it is applied fairly, is a double edged sword.

[ebenrocks]

Yup anyone can use the power of citizens arrest against anyone else as long as it fits with the very strict criteria under the act. One problem with citizens arrest though is that if you detain someone and they are found not guilty at their trial, they can turn around and spring you for wrongful arrest/false imprisonment. you have to be really sure what you're arresting someone for is a clear cut offence and there is evidence that will back that up in court.

How would the police treat it? hmm... its kind of a grey area really in the fact that so few citizens arrests are actually done i would be surprised if the cops knew the policy on them. The only time they arise relatively frequently is bouncers outside clubs detaining people for violence/drugs etc.

[Wild Irish Rover]

What we need is a concerned philanthropist Rovers fan with a few quid (say £10K-20K) to spare to get 10,000 T-shirts printed up and distributed for free at games (approx 90p -£1.20 per shirt for a bulk order, plus 20-50p per shirt for printing).

If I had the brass, I'd do it in time for the weekend against Swansea.

[ABBEY]

We need squatters in tents on the pitch

[joey_big_nose]

We need squatters in tents on the pitch

Oooooh Occupy Ewood... now there's an idea. It would get MASSIVE press coverage, international even

[3rdpillar]

Fans Forum ( you're havin' a laugh )